Can You Refuse to Allow Visitation if the Other Parent Doesn't Use All of His Time

My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Michigan

I have primary physical custody of my children and their father gets visitation every other weekend. My issue is he hardly ever takes the kids and when he does he will only want to take one at a time, or he will tell me he cannot take them on Friday, but can take them Saturday. I however am tired of it and want him to follow our order of every other weekend from Friday to Sunday and take all the kids. My question, I guess is if he only wants to take ONE child do i have the right to refuse and demand he takes all of them or he gets none of them? Also, can I refuse the Saturday visitation if he says he can't/wont take them until Saturday. I only ask because I have a life too and am tired of having to put my life aside to cater to his needs/wants when he's not following the orders. If i have plans for the weekend and he decides to not take them until the next day I feel i have to cancel my life, but if he refuses to take them until Saturday I would just deny him the visitation cause he didn't take them Friday and take the kids with me. My order doesn't state anything pertaining to this which is why I'm asking. I don't want to get in trouble for denying him the kids on his weekend, but also don't think it's fair that we have to stop our life because he doesn't want to be a dad for his full weekend.
I hope this makes sense

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Quoting mooseandsquirrelsgirl

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I hope this makes sense

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The pettiness of divorced people has never made any sense to me. Always wanting to pick a fight over nothing.

Do whatever you want.

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Quoting mooseandsquirrelsgirl

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My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Michigan

I have primary physical custody of my children and their father gets visitation every other weekend. My issue is he hardly ever takes the kids and when he does he will only want to take one at a time, or he will tell me he cannot take them on Friday, but can take them Saturday. I however am tired of it and want him to follow our order of every other weekend from Friday to Sunday and take all the kids. My question, I guess is if he only wants to take ONE child do i have the right to refuse and demand he takes all of them or he gets none of them? Also, can I refuse the Saturday visitation if he says he can't/wont take them until Saturday. I only ask because I have a life too and am tired of having to put my life aside to cater to his needs/wants when he's not following the orders. If i have plans for the weekend and he decides to not take them until the next day I feel i have to cancel my life, but if he refuses to take them until Saturday I would just deny him the visitation cause he didn't take them Friday and take the kids with me. My order doesn't state anything pertaining to this which is why I'm asking. I don't want to get in trouble for denying him the kids on his weekend, but also don't think it's fair that we have to stop our life because he doesn't want to be a dad for his full weekend.
I hope this makes sense

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Visitation is a privilege not an obligation. Therefore he can choose not to take them until Saturday if that is what he wants to do. Taking just one of them instead of all of them is a little iffier, as that is not fair to the children. That one I would be tempted to say no about. Yes, its possible that he could take you to court for contempt, but I do not believe that a judge would be pleased to hear that he was doing that. The only possible exception to that would be if it was a special occasion that did not allow for the participation of the other children.

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Quoting llworking

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Visitation is a privilege not an obligation. Therefore he can choose not to take them until Saturday if that is what he wants to do. Taking just one of them instead of all of them is a little iffier, as that is not fair to the children. That one I would be tempted to say no about. Yes, its possible that he could take you to court for contempt, but I do not believe that a judge would be pleased to hear that he was doing that. The only possible exception to that would be if it was a special occasion that did not allow for the participation of the other children.

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Thank you for the information, it was actually helpful!!

When you start thinking about the children instead of you ask your question again. Until then it appears you will look for any reason to cause discourse in the relationship with the children's father.

I could look to see if you are allowed to deny all visitstion if the father does not exercises his visitstion at exactly the time it is scheduled to start but I won't. I know of at least one state that does allow that (speaking of a state other than Michigan). When a parent starts playing games like utilizing the time specific issue to deny transfer of the children without an actual reason, it's because the parent in question simply wants to play power games. That is not in the best interest of the children. Acting in the best interest of the children is where your mind needs to be and not in where can I screw over the other parent.

I see nothing wrong with the Saturday pickup if there is a reason for it. Does he work late Friday so the pickup is an issue? If so, sure seems like the children being with you rather than a babysitter would be in the best interest of the children and then when the father can devote time to the children they be transferred to him. That's just one situation that would make the Saturday exchange sensible.

As to the one at s time issue; depending on the age, given the children are with you most of the time, maybe the father is overwhelmed with both. Maybe he has child specific activities where the second child would not allow full enjoyment of such a situation.

While the one at a time can be an issue, I can see where it may not be a problem as well. Without knowing a lot more about the dynamics here there is no way to say, based on your information, that either issue is actuslly an issue that should or should not be addressed or changed.

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Quoting mooseandsquirrelsgirl

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My question, I guess is if he only wants to take ONE child do i have the right to refuse and demand he takes all of them or he gets none of them?

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If you want that to be a provision of your order, you should petition the custody court to modify the custody order.

As llworking indicates, the judge may not be impressed with his approach to parenting if he's routinely only taking one child and leaving the others with you. If this is simply a matter of his preference, rather than resulting from physical or behavioral health issues that reduce his capacity to care for multiple children, I agree with llworking that a judge is not going to be impressed by his conduct and that may cause the court to view your actions more sympathetically, but the court's order is an order -- and the court expects you to obey its order.

Your first step in getting a sense of how the court might approach a refusal of parenting time is by discussing the matter with Friend of the Court in your county -- ask them if a denial under such circumstances would, in their view, entitle the father to demand and obtain make-up parenting time. If they say "Yes", keep in mind that make-up parenting time is usually allowed for a date and time of the other parent's choosing -- which could mean that a denial could make your life even more complicated.

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Quoting mooseandsquirrelsgirl

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Also, can I refuse the Saturday visitation if he says he can't/wont take them until Saturday.

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What you need to do is to have the custody order amended to provide that if the children aren't picked up within a specified amount of time following the start of a scheduled period of visitation, then that period of visitation is cancelled. That way, absent an up-front agreement to modify pick-up dates or trade days, if dad decides it's not inconvenient to pick up the kids when his parenting time starts, he loses the visit.

If you're going to court to modify parenting time, and dad's only showing up for visitation once a month on average, you can also suggest that the court modify parenting time to be consistent with the time dad is actually exercising.

What are the ages of the children ? Does he alternate equally or does he show preference for one child over the other ? Have the children said anything about their sibling getting to go with dad and not them ?

I didn't see anyone else suggest this (but that's my fault), but does Mom realize that she doesn't have to sit and stew and fester in the house during the whole weekend? Go about your business, tell Dad roughly where you'll be, and tell Dad to text or call when he's coming to pick up the child/ren.

Not that this is about Mom anyway. Or, at least, it shouldn't be.

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Quoting llworking

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Visitation is a privilege not an obligation. Therefore he can choose not to take them until Saturday if that is what he wants to do. Taking just one of them instead of all of them is a little iffier, as that is not fair to the children. That one I would be tempted to say no about. Yes, its possible that he could take you to court for contempt, but I do not believe that a judge would be pleased to hear that he was doing that. The only possible exception to that would be if it was a special occasion that did not allow for the participation of the other children.

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Yeah but unless the court order DEMANDED that he HAS to take ALL the children and not just once, he would not be violating any part of it so mom would HAVE to abide by his request. Unless there was a part of the court order that states that he has forfeited his visitation if he waits until Saturday or doesn't want to take ALL of the children. Highly doubt it but....

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Quoting Dogmatique

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I didn't see anyone else suggest this (but that's my fault), but does Mom realize that she doesn't have to sit and stew and fester in the house during the whole weekend? Go about your business, tell Dad roughly where you'll be, and tell Dad to text or call when he's coming to pick up the child/ren.

Not that this is about Mom anyway. Or, at least, it shouldn't be.

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I would have to look at state law (and I'm not inclined to do that at the moment since it sounds more like a power trip than a real issue) in some states/ orders, the custodial parent is required to make the children available any time during the visitstion period. Yes, if there is a pissing match dad could use this to screw with mom by waiting until she is doing something and then going: im coming by to get the kids.

In other states there is an absurdly short period of time the parent has to pick up the children lest they lose the entire visitstion period unless the custodial parent decides to allow it. (My son in law had either 15 or 30 minutes lest he lost his entire time and yes, I read it in the states rules myself)

thats why I hope the op clarifies the problem and whether it is the cause of an actual problem or they are just being a pain in the ass to dad.

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Quoting jk

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(My son in law had either 15 or 30 minutes lest he lost his entire time and yes, I read it in the states rules myself)

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Are you talking about a statute? Or is this something that is in parenting time guidelines, and thus typically incorporated into custody orders even though it's not required by law? If it's a statute, please identify the state as I would like to see the statute -- I've never encountered a custody statute with that type of language.

Michigan's parenting time guidelines indicate,

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Quoting Time for Parenting Time Exchange

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An exact time for exchange should be established and agreed upon by all parties. Neither parent should do anything to inconvenience the other in the exchange of the child(ren). Arriving late by no more than 30 minutes may be acceptable in exceptional circumstances, but should never become the norm. A parent should be late, only when a legitimate, unavoidable, reason exists for being late. A parent who anticipates being late should contact the other parent as soon as possible.

Additionally, a parent should not be early for parenting time as this may cause undue disruption for the child(ren) and the other parent.

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That language should help the OP if she attempts to modify the order based upon the father's failure to appear for exchanges without prior notice, or cancellation of visits for some or all of the children, but it is not a basis to ignore the court's order.

It was in the state parenting guidelines which the court did enforce. In the orde, i can't recite specific verbiage, but the guidelines were included by reference

I might be wrong that it was in the guidelines. I cruised them pretty quickly and didn't see it. Maybe it was a specific requirement in the order.


But tonight's date night with the Mrs so I'll have to come back to this later. She wouldn't be happy if I ignored her tonight.

Dogmatique, my first thought when I read this was mom had a date or other plans where she couldn't take the children, but I may be wrong.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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Are you talking about a statute? Or is this something that is in parenting time guidelines, and thus typically incorporated into custody orders even though it's not required by law? If it's a statute, please identify the state as I would like to see the statute -- I've never encountered a custody statute with that type ofr.

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knox county Ohio parenting guidelines page 4

http://www.co.knox.oh.us/offices/coc...20SCHEDULE.pdf

moose: from what mr k posted Michigan does not have a hard time cutoff. If this is a regular problem all you can do is ask the courts to impose some cut off time that if he does not pick up the children by some certain time or an agreed upon temporary adjustment.

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Quoting mooseandsquirrelsgirl

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0k I'm going to try and explain it all here. I have three children with my ex husband. the children are 4,5, and 6 . I ask the question because my ex does not tell me he's not taking the children until last minute. I basically feel like I am not allowed to make any plans until last minute because I never know if I'm going to have to drop everything and meet him to exchange the children. I have friends who live out of town up to a 2 1/2 hour drive away from where I live. I feel that I cannot make any plans because my ex is very inconsistent with his visits and when he is going to take the kids. I have no issue bringing my children with me to my friends houses when i go out of town, its the issue of having made plans and last minute he tells me... "i'm not taking them until Saturday" and there go my out of town weekend plans because i have to drive all the way back into town to drop them off/meet him. I've tried to tell him and work with him as to when I'm going out of town and he's the one who intentionally screwed with my schedule, so I stopped telling him and yes, it's still very inconsistent like I expected only now he cant just target those weeknds. I can assure you that I am not on a power trip with my children. I want my children to spend time with their father because it is important to them to spend time with him. I have not brought guys around my kids since my divorce nor have i been in a serious relationship and I'm okay with that. my children always have come first and continue to come first. I'm not wanting to push my kids off on him to go out on dates or have weekend getaways or anything of the sorts. I have my own outlets for babysitters when I need some time to myself and I do NOT see my children's father as a babysitter so i can go out and party or mess around, I'm not that kind of person. I guess I just want my ex to be a dad to his children and for them to want to spend time with him I love spending time with my children and taking them along with me to places. My children hate going to their dads to the point they scream and cry about going, yet i continue to encourage them to go. The reason I'd rather him take the kids all at once is because how inconsistent he is with taking the kids that way all the kids get to see him without going weeks or a month without seeing him and I feel that with them not going there consistently makes the kids not want to go there even more and it breaks my heart that my kids don't like to go to their dads and spend time with him. I know I cannot force him to take the kids I just wish he would want to take the kids and be a real dad to the kids other than a drop in daddy once or twice a month for one night. Yes, he has taken ONE child for a night then gone 2 months without seeing any of the kids..when he had four weeks in the summer to take the children, he refused to take any of them over the course of the summer because he was just too busy. I will mention that he lives with his girlfriend who he has had two new children with over the past two years and she also has a few children of her own. now, I know that is a lot of kids that he helps care for, but that is not my children's fault that he decided to lay down and have more children with another woman. I will also mention that during his affair with the girl he is with now he emotionally and verbally abused me and continues to this day to verbally abuse me and blame me for any and everything that he can.

now i can guess what might be targeted next about why would i want to deny him the visits if I want him to take the kids and spend time with them.. Honestly I'd rather he take the kids so they get time with him, but when it comes down to it , i'm tired of the games he plays with not wanting to utilize his parenting time and make things difficult for me and the kids.. he works mon-friday and gets out before our children get out of school..yes there are times he has overtime, and i understand that, but he's lied many times about it and i've found out that he just had something more appealing than taking the children..for example going to a casino with his girlfriend for the weekend..

Also as to refer back to the first person who commented on this thread..I'm not being petty I have tried to work with my ex on multiple occasions and I'm fed up with all the crap he's put my children through and the run around. I wouldn't have come here to ask for information if I'm just trying to start stuff with my ex..I've put up with enough of it and I'm ready to take some sort of action with the courts, but i wanted to get some real answers on some questions, so NO i wont do whatever I want, I came HERE for help not to just do whatever. I guess maybe I should have explained some stuff,but I didn't think I would get immature responses from people who offer free legal advice to people who are seeking help. I guess I thought wrong about everyone having an open mind and seeing it from a different prospective without assuming the worst of the poster.

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Wow. All of that, and you're still talking about yourself. Seriously - as an assignment, go back and underline just how many times you wrote the words "I" and "my".

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Quoting jk

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knox county Ohio parenting guidelines page 4

http://www.co.knox.oh.us/offices/coc...20SCHEDULE.pdf

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So it's a local court's practice for all cases where something different is not specified in the custody order, but not something defined or required by statute.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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So it's a local court's practice for all cases where something different is not specified in the custody order, but not something defined or required by statute.

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I don't know if any other counties follow that rule. I didn't check. As I said I didn't see it in a quick look through the state guidelines but that doesn't mean I didn't miss it.

I have knowledge of only one case in that county. There was no other verbiage in the order to countermand that rule. Whether there is typically I cannot say.