Disqualified for Unemployment Due to Receiving Pension Benefits

My question involves labor and employment law for the state of: Colorado

I was forced to take early retirement after being laid off after 22 yrs with Schlumberger. I went from making 6 figures down to social security (reduced by age of 64). So I filed for my pension, also reduced because of age. I filed for unemployment in Colorado and it was accepted. I spoke to an agent on the phone at this accouncement (Apr 2015) and I aksed if I was eligible while getting pension and SSA. I was told yes, and the only requirement was to make 3 job searches a week and keep a record. I did so with the exception of a few weeks when I would be reapplying for same jobs from previous week.

Colorado unemployment sent me a questionaire which I filled out and returned. Now Colorado unemployment has contacted me and told me that Schlumberger has sent them documents showing my pension. We discussed this on phone and I told them it appears I had made a mistake after being misled in April and thought I was eligible. They requested a copy of job search log for week mentioned in questionaire, (Aug 30 - Sept 5th). I emailed the job search log for requested dates. Now they say that they need entire log, they keep making more and more requests and making conflicting statements and changing their mind on what's needed from me.

I have obviously screwed up and am concerned on how I can pay this back, looks like I have been overpaid for 3 months so far. Agent will not tell me what will happen for repayment, other than possible garnishment. Payments from them have stopped as of this month.

I'm very sorry to hear that.

When you have a legal question, be sure to let us know.

You're eligible, but your pension and social security payments were supposed to be reported on the MyUI and it reduces your payment. If you didn't do this right, you'll need to repay the overpayment. There's no out for claiming you were told something different. If you're still receiving payments legitimately, they'll dock those. When the payments stop, then you'll have to repay them. They will permit a repayment plan over time if you don't have the cash.

Unemployment is not needs based. It is eligibility based. And it is greatly affected by whether or not you are receiving a pension from your employer. If you are drawing a certain type of contributory pension from your employer, that is considered wages just as if you were still on salary. That will affect your unemployment benefits and your eligibility to receive them just as if you were working. That's why all those questions. They don't ask them just to hassle you personally, this is part of the process.

When you called and asked at the beginning of your claim, you got a partly right answer. You can draw Social Security retirement and it does not affect your unemployment benefits as long as you have not actually removed yourself from the labor force by failing to do further job searches and indicate you are seeking another job.

Pensions are another situation all together. If you are receiving a pension, you are supposed to discuss this at great length with the claims taker who begins your claim. There is probably a pension question of some type on every weekly certification for benefits that you must complete to get paid for a week of benefits.

It's hard not to notice this repetitious questioning about pensions, and if you are receiving a pension which you did not have a decision about with them, and now they have gone back and gotten the information from the company, which they always do, then you can pretty much expect that you may have gotten slightly overpaid because of it and you'll have a bit of unemployment to pay back.

What they do as part of this decision is take the monthly total gross amount of the pension and divide it by four (weeks in the month.) They compare this amount from your weekly unemployment benefit amount. If it is less, they give you a small portion of your unemployment benefits each week until you have drawn out the whole claim, which may extend your time drawing benefits, though it reduces the weekly amount. If that weekly pension amount is more than the amount of unemployment you could draw in a week, you get no unemployment insurance as long as you are drawing the pension.

It doesn't matter on whip what you were told by someone who works there. It may have been the first hour of the first day when this person actually worked at the office. Or they may just have flat out lied to you. But even though they told you it wouldn't count, when a claim is taken, there always must be information gathered and a decision made on whether or not your pension was the kind that counts against you in unemployment benefits or whether it isn't.

You have no part of this decision, and they'll wash it all down and figure out if you have been overpaid. If you are going to be able, as I mentioned, to draw a small part of your unemployment each week while receiving the pension, you will have to meet all the other eligibility requirements and continue to make weekly certifications for each week, even though you get a greatly reduced amount. If you have been overpaid here at the beginning of the claim, they'll let you continue to file for weeks and collect the money back until the overpayment is covered. Then you'll continue to file for weeks and will begin drawing the reduced amount of unemployment again (unless, of course, you've found another job, at which time you won't need any more unemployment benefits, though you may or may not still have an overpayment.)

The good news is, these types of overpayment are usually considered non-fraud overpayments, which mean that there will be no penalties or fraud charges involved with them. They'll work it out with you if they possibly can. But if you just walk away with your head in the air from here on saying you just won't deal with unemployment any more, or when you get a notice that you are overpaid, you'll likely end up with a fraud overpayment and more trouble, possibly wage garnishment or confiscation of income tax returns and substantial penalties.

When there are possible issues with retirements and pensions, what they do is usually let you go on and begin receiving benefits while you are having a decision made about your pension issues, as long as you are making the required job searches.

And oh yes, about job searches, they can actually request that you submit to them each week in writing three or however many places you have made a job search. It's just part of the requirements. Especially when someone is "retired" out of a place, or takes "early retirement" they are especially careful that you are not drawing having "removed yourself from the labor force" as in, you're not looking for another job. Even when you are an educated professional making six figures, and you know all about how you think you need to go about looking for jobs, there's a certain way that you have to do it for them, and that's the only way.

Each week that you have been drawing for, you are required to make three job searches if that's what your state's system requires, even if you are going to have to write down the same place more than once. As long as you don't use the same three places for every week, within reason, you are allowed to recheck on job places. Otherwise, you must spread out and find more places to apply. It doesn't matter if those are the only three places in the state that paid what you'd like to have, or that do the same type of work you want to do, etc. You have to apply at other places too.

You do this as part of the requirements for receiving unemployment for that week. You don't arbitrarily decide that you don't need to make a job search this week, because you've got all the places you're applying covered. Use your creativity a little bit. Branch out. Apply for jobs in other states, different industries, etc. Don't try to argue with them about whether you needed to do it, just do it. But you have to come up with SOMEWHERE you've applied each week. It's not subjective. They don't discuss it with you, you just have to DO IT. They're pretty good about accepting what you say about where you've looked, don't forget. Come up with it. People you've asked about possible job openings in social situations, places you've submitted resumes to on line, etc.

If you receive a notice that you're overpaid by decision, call them at once and ask them how they want to deal with it. Right now it's not much. It will depend a lot on whether you're going to be able to draw a reduced weekly amount right now. But that you were misinformed does not mean you are not overpaid. I have seen this one played out fully. I saw a professional person go through a whole appeals program, all the way to civil court, and who did end up having to pay back a whole claim a year later. In this case, he had definitely been misinformed and misguided by the person who took his claim who honestly thought his pension did not count and kept telling him this. It was a non penalty overpayment, but he still did have to pay it back.

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Quoting comment/ator

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Unemployment is not needs based. It is eligibility based. And it is greatly affected by whether or not you are receiving a pension from your employer. If you are drawing a certain type of contributory pension from your employer, that is considered wages just as if you were still on salary. That will affect your unemployment benefits and your eligibility to receive them just as if you were working.

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In Colorado (which is the state the poster said he was in), my post gives the SPECIFIC information rather than talking generalities. He was told correctly that a pension/SS payment will not make him ineligible, but Colorado does reduce the payment for those who are receiving these payments (by the exact amount of the pension payments prorated over the UI payment period). Colorado doesn't treat it as if you are working (i.e., you are still "eligibile") you're benefit is just reduced.

A pension will not automatically make him ineligible. I wholeheartedly agree. I also doubt that they told him he didn't even have to mention it, or that he didn't have to answer any questions about it unless it was, as I said, someone who was very new to the system. What they have to do when someone is receiving a pension is get a boat load of information about it. If it is contributory, as in partially paid by the employer, and they get this information from the employer's payroll, not from the claimant, then it definitely does reduce the claim, and they have very definite guidelines on the way in which it will reduce, or on some cases, eliminate it.

A pension doesn't make in ineligible PERIOD. As long as he is unemployed, able and looking for work he's eligible. It's just a matter as to whether he will get any money after they apply the reductions. Colorado won't allow you to double dip.

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Quoting flyingron

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A pension doesn't make in ineligible PERIOD

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It might. Seeing as how CO is a neighboring state, they may be taking a page out of AZ's play book. Claimants that take pensions are presumed to have withdrawn from the labor market (able and available), and here, their work searches are scrutined to death (this guy's post suggests that same pattern). That's why even while I was eligible to file for social security while on UI, and I was told it was perfectly ok to do so, I did not because I didn't want to have to deal with submitting detailed work search information week after week. Instead, I knew that each month I deferred my SS, it would just go up, and I hope to live long enough that it will be the right decision.

A pension, particularly an employer contributory pension is NOT the same thing as social security retirement or an IRA. And if you were getting enough of one, a contributory pension, where the employer has contributed a certain minimal amount of the money in the pension fund could make it to where you did not qualify for unemployment benefits at all because you were receiving too much money each week from it. Because it is money that comes directly from the employer, which according to the wording of the federal regs is considered as something being paid you by the employer, as in 'wages.' But we are doing nothing here but splitting hairs. Lets just say that yes, the guy should've told them all about his pension, and he may be slightly overpaid since he received both for a time without a reduction based on the pension, and they'll take care of it and tell him how to fix it.

If, as in Colorado, they require you to submit three job searches a week, they do NOT make any distinction between people who are receiving Social Security retirement income and anyone else. Three works searches a week, and they don't "pick at" or have different requirements for job searches for a Social security receiving retiree any more than they do everyone else, unless that particular retiree is one of the people they are doing a benefit accuracy measurement audit on and then they check everything to death and to pieces. But if they want to, they have the right to do it to any claimant, can require anybody at any time to verify any aspect of their claim.

There has recently been something added to the unemployment system called profiling, which taps those statistically least likely to be reemployed quickly and subjects them to extra job searches and reporting requirements. These include people with very high incomes, short work histories, people who work for temp services only, people who are older and people who have lower educational levels, in other words, they profile people who are least likely to work again quickly. Retirees tend to fall into that group because of age and past earnings level, so it's not surprising that they often end up being extra checked.

But anyway, you were smart to wait, I believe, chyvan, to draw your unemployment out and then do your social security, because statistically, you're much better off and there's no better place to such get good returns for your money than to leave it in your social security account and postpone drawing it out as long as possible.

Collecting a pension or SS does not make you ineligible for UC ..but for at least the last 35 years there has need a Federal requirement that states offset UC by SS and employer pensions ..the offset math can and does vary a lot by state ...

Your state has an offset for SS it you take SS...but my understanding is you need not take SS ( My state holds pensions, not SS, against you even if you delay them but I don't know about your state .)
What I do know is that SS allows for a 1x do over to pay it back in and restart later ..at a higher rate..no interest/no penality. I do not know if this reverses out the CO math and or just how your personal math works..but Id sure do some digging if I were in your shoes. In general, for most of the examples where I crunched the math, it is well worth delaying SS.

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Quoting HRinDEVON

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Collecting a pension or SS does not make you ineligible for UC

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I don't think anyone is disputing that. However, the regulation that controls this in my state says:

C. Pension (Able and Available 375.3)
1. A claimant’s retirement or receipt of a pension creates a
presumption that either the claimant has withdrawn from
the labor market or his retirement is involuntary because
of his inability to continue work. Positive evidence that
he has re-entered the labor market will be required to
overcome the presumption of ineligibility after retirement.

From the case law, when it says "presumption" that allows the deputy to deny first on an "able and available" issue, and puts the claimant on the defensive, and having lived through a different set of circumstances, it's no fun. It's for this reason, I don't recommend anyone doing anything that creates even the slightest appearance that they've left the labor market to just avoid the potential battle that might arise.

One blog said CO repealed it's SS offset a year or so,ago...but Imdint see a good reliable source ..best to dig for a reliable answer ..not me...

Ouch..lousy short term math to have turned on the private pension early?

As posted above, given CO presumes you are not in labor force if you are on retirement ..Id take extra efforts, well docuemented , to be sure I was actively out there seeking work etc....it might be an uphill quest doomed to fail if you are sloppy ..I don't know how hard you need try so that you overcome the presumption that you dropped out of labor force . ( I and several of my friends are well past 64 ...and sort of get it that 99.98% of the doors get closed for any relevant level job even 50% less )

Wow! Lots of comments, thank you all.

I guess I need to ask if I need to hire a Colorado lawyer on this issue, or just submit to all these inconsistent data requests? I should also mention I live in Louisiana and was working in Denver for the last 3 years, which is where this unemployment was applied for.

No you do not need to hire a Colorado lawyer. Almost all unemployment issues are set up so that an attorney doing it for you would make no difference in the outcome whatsoever. Any person who is reasonably competent should be able to represent themselves. And since there is very little money involved, relatively, the whole overpayment may be less than an attorney's fee to deal with it. But it is a Colorado claim, uses Colorado's payment schedule and specific laws, even though you are a Louisiana resident, and will be allowed to make your work searches in the area where you reside. It all depends on where the tax money was paid into the employer's account for unemployment, and it was doubtless done in Colorado if they have let you file the claim with that state.

Just go along with all these inconsistent data requests. They are coming from a totally different perspective, and are not directed at you personally, and are not necessarily going to seem logical or reasonable to you, but believe me, there is a purpose for the questions, there is a structure in place as to how things are done, and they will be able to take care of it without your retaining an attorney and fighting it. It would make no difference if you did. You do not have a fraud overpayment case going here, and it will never become an issue as long as you cooperate with them.

As I said earlier, just submit three places you've looked for work each week, do not argue with them that you don't need to do it, or it makes no sense to do it or it's not the best way to find a job. Just follow the rules as best you can.

Thanks again comment/ator! I have been doing the three job searches weekly online thru careerbuilder.com, they don't seem to like this method, but it's a little late to tell me that now. Very confusing to me how this works. Some details for you: I was laid off in April 2015, force reduction. I filed in that moth for SSA, UC & pension. I got UC in April, SSA in May, and pension in July. So right now I have been overpaid for 3 months ~$6000. My UC payments have stopped. Will they just keep my next 3 months of payments for repayment? I am concerned about bank liens, penalties, etc. Also I have been reading about 99 weeks of payments, they show my claim ending by December, which is 36 weeks. Am I allowed to file for UC in Louisiana also, if pensions are not a factor?

Outside of lobbying for a change to the unemployment eligibility laws of your state, no, there is no legal step you can take.

Back some time ago, some older workers were perceived as double dipping..the law is as the law is...for your specific state. ( math varies by state)

Nobody said you were denied UC..but the fact is there is an offset due to pension. PLUs there is a presumption that you are out of workforce if " retired " ..it is rebutable ..my suggestion is to do way more than the min searches required by rules and have good records of same...

I never said I was denied. Just ignorant of process.

I have no doubt that this produces an adverse on some workers due just to age ....but for now the law is as it is and the pressures to make it age neutral may be zero.

Just scanning a database is NOT likely to pass the mustard in Colorado (it certainly won't fly here). They want to see you actually apply to some jobs.

Again, keep filing for MyUI if you haven't exhausted your eligibility and you are still earnestly looking and available. They're not going to automatically use the future payments to repay your arrearage if you don't keep maintaining your eligibility. Despite what others here tell you, receiving pension payments doesn't change your eligibility in Colorado, but your payments are offset by any pension payments you receive (note that this is prorated for each two week period and can't go below zero, so if you're eligible for $100 payment but you get a (prorated for the two weeks) $125 pension payment, your two week payment goes to $0. The next period you can apply again, if you didn't get a pension over that period, you get the full $100. Any payment you are eligible for goes against past overpayments. It behooves you to qualify (look for jobs) and file (make your MyUI reports) every two weeks until your eligibility period expires.

Having never worked in Louisiana, I don't think you're likely eligible to collect from them but Louisiana encourages you to contact the office in your parish to find out what eligibility you have (and apparently can help with out of state claims).

Since I am not going to stop my pension, unless a miracle rehire happens, what is the point of continuing this work search/filing process?

I don't know your math especially if the pension offsets to UC to zero.

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Quoting jnaron

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what is the point of continuing this work search/filing process?

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In the simplest terms, so that the money you pay back comes out of your UI benefits rather than out of your own pocket.

pension is $3230 before taxes & health insurance. $2306 after. UC payment is $478 per week after taxes.

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Quoting jnaron

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pension is $3230 before taxes & health insurance. $2306 after. UC payment is $478 per week after taxes.

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UI doesn't care about your deductions. They only care about the gross. So work with the $3,230 number. Do you know if they are trying to hit you for 100% offset or 50%? At 50%, you'd still get a benefit, but at 100%, your benefit would be fully offset. At that point, you'd be right, you can just kiss the UI good bye and not mess with the work search or jumping through anymore hoops.

I realize they don't care about deductions, just sharing exact data. Of course this information highway seems to be a one way street. So no idea about 100 or 50% reduction, but based on math I would say my pension is more than my UC, so no more UC, which has already happened, no payment this last period to me.

Colorado's rule is straightforward. The pension payment gets subtracted off the UI payment.

Is that $3230 per two week period or a longer period...

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Quoting jnaron

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so no more UC, which has already happened, no payment this last period to me.

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This isn't conclusive. Anytime a new "issue" comes up, payments stop until the issue is either converted to a "disqualification" or is resolved in the claimant's favor and then payment can be made as appropriate for the suspended weeks.

$3230 before taxes is per month

Why not keep filing the claim, looking for three jobs a week until the unemployment covers the overpayment that you have accumulated that they haven't determined yet? To me, it's worth it for you to make the work searches, receive the unemployment, even at a reduced rate, and let that money be applied to the overpayment? Otherwise, you just will have to pay them back for the weeks you were overpaid out of your own pocket. Why should you do that just because you'd have to go to a little trouble in that you'd have to show where you'd looked for three jobs a week? Myself, I'd rather pay the money back that way than in cash out of my pocket.

That's a rather substantial pension. If they decide you get NO unemployment because of this offset, you'll still owe them back the money you have drawn. They'll issue you an overpayment decision. You'll need to pay it, or it will start growing and accumulating penalties and they'll eventually get it back.
But let them do the math and determine whether you get anything or if you are overpaid, and how much you are overpaid. No amount of our speculating here will be official.

Why not keep filing claim:
1.) They dislike my job search method
2.) The math shows my pension outweighs the UC/week, so I have no chance to get it no matter what.

So should I continue to send them ammunition against me, or stop communicating and wait for overpayment judgement, then work out repayment plan?

If you do not send them " ammunition against you" as you put it, it will be interpreted as failing to cooperate with their investigation. This will cause two things. Firstly, they will feel challenged as it becomes more and more difficult to get you to respond. They will up the efforts to keep your case open and find it more interesting. People who cooperate least have the greatest chance of being actually prosecuted for unemployment fraud in the court system.

They will start thinking of it as a "fraud overpayment" instead of a genuine mistake once you are not in communication with them and telling them how this happened, how the person informed you in such a way that you thought you were doing it right, and you didn't intend to become overpaid, and once that happens, once they have a decision, which you are ignoring, and you make no effort to cooperate with by providing information, it will start accumulating penalties and interest. A $1200 overpayment may someday morph into a $5000 overpayment. There is not a statute of limitations on collection.

Secondly, let THEM tell you that your UC is zero because your pension amount outweighs the weekly benefit. Letting people on the internet do the math for you without all the parameters in place is not reliable. There are things about the pension calculation they may not know or be looking at, and the overpayment will have to be set up officially by Colorado law. Until that happens, and THEY tell you there is no unemployment to draw at all, and that you have been overpaid XXXX amount of dollars, it is possibly to your advantage to keep filing for weeks of benefits.

Third, job search. Get over it that you are an individual and that "they" the agency, has the slightest knowledge of or care about you personally, that they "won't reason with" you and accept your arguments about how you feel is the best way to do your job search, your "method." They have a one size fits all "method." You make three job searches a week, whether it makes sense to you to do this or not. You can, within reason, use the same employer more than once, but not too many times. It's just the hoop you jump through. Quit trying to make it "look good" or be logical or actually be helpful in finding you a job. Just DO IT. This job search requirement is the same whether you are a waitress, a construction worker, a rocket scientist or an executive. Manage to get it done. Come up with some places you might've looked during the weeks in question when you so proudly told them you "didn't need to" do job search. Just come up with it, they're not going to contact the employers and verify that you contacted them or check your odometer to see whether you drove there. I'm not telling you to lie, I'm just saying instead of arguing that you were right in breaking the rules and not making your usual official job search submissions because blah blah blah, just a simple, maybe "I checked on my resume at ...... or I got on this job finder site or I talked to XXX who is a friend of mine about possible openings at his company."