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Is the Original Owner Responsible for a Lien Paid Off After Fraudulent Title Transfer

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  • 10-11-2015, 07:32 PM
    Homeowner in PA
    Is the Original Owner Responsible for a Lien Paid Off After Fraudulent Title Transfer
    My question involves real estate located in the State of: Pennsylvania

    Situation:
    1) Deed falsely transferred from owner.
    2) New holder of deed satisfies lien.
    3) Deed restored to original owner.
    Question: Can/does the lien renew to the original owner?
  • 10-11-2015, 07:33 PM
    jk
    Re: Forged Deed Transfer – Lien Paid – Original Owner Still Responsible for Lien
    How could it? It has been paid.
  • 10-11-2015, 07:49 PM
    Homeowner in PA
    Re: Forged Deed Transfer – Lien Paid – Original Owner Still Responsible for Lien
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    How could it? It has been paid.

    Good question.

    Additional information: The forger was holding the lien/article-of-agreement.
  • 10-11-2015, 08:07 PM
    jk
    Re: Forged Deed Transfer – Lien Paid – Original Owner Still Responsible for Lien
    I'm sorry but I don't play games.
  • 10-11-2015, 08:36 PM
    Taxing Matters
    Re: Is the Original Owner Responsible for a Lien Paid Off After Fraudulent Title Tran
    Quote:

    Quoting Homeowner in PA
    View Post
    My question involves real estate located in the State of: Pennsylvania

    Situation:
    1) Deed falsely transferred from owner.
    2) New holder of deed satisfies lien.
    3) Deed restored to original owner.
    Question: Can/does the lien renew to the original owner?

    The facts are not complete. What exactly do you mean that the deed was “falsely transferred” and who did the transfer — the owner, or someone else? If it was someone else, who was it? To whom was the property transferred? The lien holder, or someone else? And how was the lien supposedly satisfied?

    Let’s make this easier and say Debra is the deed owner of the property and Larry has a lien on Debra’s property. Describe from there what took place. What did Debra and Larry do here, and was there anyone else involved?
  • 10-12-2015, 07:26 AM
    Homeowner in PA
    Re: Forged Deed Transfer – Lien Paid – Original Owner Still Responsible for Lien
    Quote:

    Quoting jk
    View Post
    I'm sorry but I don't play games.

    I don't understand...

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wasn’t sure what other information would be helpful... So please ask away!

    Using your example... John purchased a property/business of which Peter financed and holds the article-of-agreement. John became sick and unable to run the business. Peter presented a "document" for John to sign, of which Peter explained (falsely) to John that Peter would hold payments on the loan until John recovered, and was able to re-start payments. The document was a single signature page... Of which Peter then attached to the first page, out of site from John, that transferred the property/business to Peter.

    Peter then, not in the presence of John, had the document notarized... But not really. Peter "acquired" a notary-stamp, not his, and stamped/signed himself.

    After John recovered and wanted to re-start his business… He contacted Peter to re-start the payments. Peter did not return John’s calls. John returned to the property/business and found Peter had sold it to a new owner (cash… don’t know if there is mortgage-insurance).

    An inquiry at the courthouse confirmed the transfer from Peter to the new owner; And the loan that Peter held on John was satisfied by Peter.

    At this point… John reads the deed-transfer and realizes he did not sign the document that was filed at the courthouse.

    Now understand although John is great at his craft… He is not a businessman. In conversation between John and another person named Paul… Paul as a title-researcher, offered to look into the matter. Paul pulled a copy of the notary used… And quickly realized the signature on the notary certificate did not match the signature on the document that was used to transfer the property from John to Peter.

    Although notary logs are public… The notary refused to show Paul his ledgers. Long-story short… The Attorney General’s office investigated and confirmed the deed transfer was a fraudulent transaction. The Attorney General’s office is currently in-touch with the District Attorney’s office.

    Assuming the property does eventually revert back to John because of the fraudulent transaction… Can Peter reinstate the lien/loan?
  • 10-12-2015, 08:06 AM
    HRinDEVON
    Re: Forged Deed Transfer – Lien Paid – Original Owner Still Responsible for Lien
    John needs to a review the steps with counsel in PA. Just my lay view:

    A forged signature or altered docuement does not convey valid title

    John still holds title to the place , Peter held no valid title to convey to the cash buyer....cash buyer has a big uphill problem to prove he is proper owner .

    The original article of agreement may hold up...but Peters extremely dirty hands are going to hurt him...and if in fact the lien was satisfied and recorded as such , it may be a closed page.

    If there truly is an innocent 3d party buyer that buyer has a big claim against Peter.

    I'm a bit puzzled as to why the notary is not anxious to clear his name ..unless of course the notary has unclean hands ..if notary let a friend borrow the seal, the notary may have big liability exposure ...the only PA example I recall of a notary making a whopper mistake on a land transfer as to who signed what resulted in a big payout by notary's insurance carrier .

    OP ..get some counsel and take a more assertive view of taking possession of that which you still own.
  • 10-12-2015, 09:13 AM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Forged Deed Transfer – Lien Paid – Original Owner Still Responsible for Lien
    Quote:

    Quoting Homeowner in PA
    View Post
    I don't understand...

    It would help for you to identify who you are in this transaction and what you hope to accomplish.
    Quote:

    Quoting HRinDEVON
    View Post
    John still holds title to the place , Peter held no valid title to convey to the cash buyer.

    You don't understand the facts. We're talking about an article of agreement, which is a form of seller-financing akin to a land contract or contract for deed. The buyer only gets equitable title until the property is paid off. You are confusing equitable title (the right to use and possession, with the promise of a future title if the contract terms are met) with clear title. It's not the same thing.

    If I try to decrypt the question, I suspect that it boils down to this: John was buying property from Peter on an article of agreement. John became sick. Peter pulled some shenanigans and sold the property to another person for cash. Now John hopes to reclaim the property from the cash buyer while avoiding having to pay Peter any money on the article of agreement, by arguing that Peter paid himself off.
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