Modifying Custody Where the Parents Never Married

My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Arizona


Here is the scenario:

My brother and this woman had a child together in 2009. He is on the birth cert. Child, for what we know lives in custody of her relatives. There is no court order established.

He works full time, She does not.

We are unaware of her status (as to where she lives) etc.

She is diagnosed severe bi-polar and was instructed to take medication my a physician. She does not. She has an extreme belligerent and destructive attitude against everyone. (Her family included)

In 2012, she left child in care of her relatives and moved out of state with some other guy. From what we understand she communicated with the child a few times, however sent no monetary support or gifts for holidays. (We were suggesting abandonment here) Dad buys gifts, pays for his clothes, all day kindergarten, etc

We have proof that the child acts up in school and in our opinion comes from his life at home.

In 2014, she returned from wherever she was and wants him to give her money for whatever reason. (We can prove she uses the money for her own benefit; hair, nails, going to clubs, etc)

She has been ordered that she is NOT allowed to be anywhere near his school nor pick him up from school as she has threatened to move him out of state before.

She also has 2 criminal convictions; One is a sealed case file, the other is filing a false police report.

I instructed him to keep a log of all of his contacts with the child and family.

Question: Do we have enough to attempt a change of Sole physical & legal custody?

Question 2: Should he apply for a protective order against her harassing him for money?

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Quoting joes2580

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We have proof that the child acts up in school and in our opinion comes from his life at home.

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1 - There's no "we" here. This is your brother's problem.
2 - What kind of "proof."
3 - Are you a mental health professional.

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Quoting joes2580

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(We can prove she uses the money for her own benefit; hair, nails, going to clubs, etc)

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Doesn't matter. Your brother owes child support. He has to pay it to her by law. He has no say in what she does with it. At this point if he gives her any money at all, he should pay by check, write child support on the check, and keep a copy of the check in case he has to prove later that he specifically paid child support otherwise he'll be paying it all over again.

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Quoting joes2580

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She has been ordered that she is NOT allowed to be anywhere near his school nor pick him up from school as she has threatened to move him out of state before.

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Ordered by who?

If that order wasn't from a judge, it's meaningless.

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Quoting joes2580

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She also has 2 criminal convictions; One is a sealed case file, the other is filing a false police report.

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So?

The standard for motherhood is set very low by the courts. Ex convicts are allowed to have and raise children.

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Quoting joes2580

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I instructed him to keep a log of all of his contacts with the child and family.

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Good idea.

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Quoting joes2580

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Question: Do we have enough to attempt a change of Sole physical & legal custody?

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Again, no "we" here.

Your brother certainly has grounds to "attempt" the change. No way to predict how a judge will feel.

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Quoting joes2580

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Question 2: Should he apply for a protective order against her harassing him for money?

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No. He owes her child support. Her hassling him for it is perfectly within her rights.

The only reason "We" is used is because ,in my separate thread I have particular insight to what he is going through and somewhat possess the knowledge to help with court documents that may be able to help him.

There is no child support. Without anything on paper, they defaulted to the 50/50 rule. They pay when they have him, My brother pays when he has him. Except for the items detailed above. Clothes, School, Gifts, etc.

While the woman was out of state, the custody between the relatives and him was about 50/50 for the entire 2 years.

The "request that she may not be in proximity to his school nor have the ability to remove him in any case" was at the direction of the doctor who diagnosed her, and her family.

You don't know where she lives, but you know her medical diagnosis, what her physician prescribed and that she does not take it?

Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

We do; that information because evident while she was living at our house with my brother. She USED to take medication for it but now, she does not because she defrauded the state insurance program and they cut her off.
Do I know what EXACTLY she was prescribed? No. Do I know that she was prescribed that medication for bi-polar disorder? Absolutely.

Since she moved back to Arizona, according to what the family tells us, (we all keep in pretty close contact after she returned) even they don't know where she lives. I say again, neither do we. They have also informed us that they believe she is a danger to him based on her mood-swings and violent behavior.

My point is that if you don't know where she lives, you can't KNOW that she is not taking her medication. Could be that she's not, could be that she is and it's not having the desired effect. Could be that her behavior isn't what you believe it to be, too.

Uh.. no, not really.

You do understand that she can be diagnosed elsewhere and given new prescriptions, right? That's one heck of a leap there, you took.

Good Points; I just wanted to know if he had enough to go for sole custody. As it stands, if she does not live with the child and the child lives with the relatives, since he is in sort of a "default" situation.. does guardianship automatically fall to her relatives? Or does the Father "trump" relatives?

If you're counting on a diagnosis of bi-polar to get him sole custody, that isn't going to do it. Plenty of people diagnosed with bi-polar disorder are able to live perfectly normal lives and have custody of their children.

No; we were relying on the fact that she abandoned him for 2 years.

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Quoting joes2580

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No; we were relying on the fact that she abandoned him for 2 years.

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But she's back now.

If your brother files for full custody in court based on what happened in the past and your rather nebulous allegations, he won't get it.

If he's got informal shared custody now he might be wise to let sleeping dogs lie instead of getting the court involved.

Courts tend to favor the mother in custody and child support issues.

So it would not be in his best interest to even file a modification for visitation?

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Quoting adjusterjack

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Courts tend to favor the mother in custody and child support issues.

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Courts tend to favor the status quo. To the extent that means favoring the mother, it's because many couples defer parenting tasks to the mother.

So if he sends child support is it ok to send it to the relatives since that's where he lives?

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Quoting joes2580

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So if he sends child support is it ok to send it to the relatives since that's where he lives?

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As soon as a court says he can, sure.

(That went from visitation to child support in record time, non?)

Adjusterjack says stay out of court. So should he or should he not go to court?

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She has been ordered that she is NOT allowed to be anywhere near his school nor pick him up from school as she has threatened to move him out of state before.

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NO SHE HAS NOT.

She has NOT BEEN ORDERED by anyone in authority to stay away. Gawd, your brother better hope and pray that this isn't raised in court. I know more than a couple of attorneys who would use that against him so hard and fast he won't know what's hit him.

Please tell me you understand that. Please?

Let me clarify; I just found out it was the school's decision. She showed up there on one of the days the child was in trouble and raised a scene. So now she has been "86'd" for lack of better terms. She is allowed to phone conference only.

How the brother is going to make an argument for sole custody is beyond me when he's known his child is living with someone other than the mother and he's not made the attempt to go get him so that the child is at least in the custody of ONE of the parents.

Really. Bit of a leap from doctor to teacher, no? And within the last hour.

So the school has gone ahead and obtained an order restricting the parent, have they? Against a parent who has been unruly just a single time? What happened when the school complained?

You know how this is starting to sound, right? There are an awful lot of rights getting very close to being trampled, yes? Or... the story is changing to fit the answers desired.

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Quoting CourtClerk

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How the brother is going to make an argument for sole custody is beyond me when he's known his child is living with someone other than the mother and he's not made the attempt to go get him so that the child is at least in the custody of ONE of the parents.

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Well doh, Mom is the Antichrist. Clearly.

That's the whole point of the question I was asking. Adjusterjack suggested 'let sleeping dogs lie" and you're saying he should go try and get custody so the child is with "at least one of the parents". So which is the better idea? They both sound like a dice roll with loaded die.

People talk all the time. But in court you must have "evidence." That means that the school must provide evidence to the things you state as fact. The others things you state as fact will also require documented evidence. Diagnosis and medication for a mental impairment doesn't mean the parent is unfit. Where was your brother for the two yrs the Mom was gone ? What did the Mom or her relatives do to make your brother so mad that the wants sole custody ? By the way, even if she has been taken off of Medicaid, there are other ways to get medical treatment as well as prescriptions.

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Quoting joes2580

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That's the whole point of the question I was asking. Adjusterjack suggested 'let sleeping dogs lie" and you're saying he should go try and get custody so the child is with "at least one of the parents". So which is the better idea? They both sound like a dice roll with loaded die.

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That's not what CC said. At all.

They didn't "make him mad" persay.. They are just not taking the greatest care of him. They let the electricity get turned off, water, etc. I have not heard that he would be going hungry but I would not be surprised. He is behind in learning comparative to other kids in his class.
I think he could do a better job with him than they do.

How can Dad do a better job when he isn't even sure where the child lives ? Where does Dad go when he picks up the child to spend time with him ? Having utilities turned off in most situations is not neglect. If Dad is so concerned about him, why didn't Dad go and oay the electric bill ? Has Dad gone to the school and asked if the child has been tested for learning disabilities. By the way, learning disabilities and neglect are not the same. Just because Dad has a good income and could afford to support the child alone, because Mom might not pay support, doesn't mean that he would be a better parent.

It appears that the previously missing crystal ball has been located. I myself have no such telepathic skills, so I celebrate its return.

You're in no position to decide how well or poorly someone else's parenting skills might be and it's becoming clear that you are far too enmeshed in someone else's legal issues and at this point, my opinions on how well the child is doing are just as valid as yours.

And a word of wisdom. If you insist on involving yourself to any degree, you need to pick a version of the story and stick with it. You also need to understand that you're <this> far from making a negative contribution to Dad's case.


Even better would be to help Dad pay for an attorney.

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Quoting Mercy&Grace

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How can Dad do a better job when he isn't even sure where the child lives ? Where does Dad go when he picks up the child to spend time with him ? Having utilities turned off in most situations is not neglect. If Dad is so concerned about him, why didn't Dad go and oay the electric bill ? Has Dad gone to the school and asked if the child has been tested for learning disabilities. By the way, learning disabilities and neglect are not the same. Just because Dad has a good income and could afford to support the child alone, because Mom might not pay support, doesn't mean that he would be a better parent.

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I would love to see the answers, mercy.

He knows where the child lives; I apologize if I did not make that clear earlier. The child lives with the relatives. He does not know where the MOTHER lives. The fact about the utilities and possible learning deficiencies, you are correct and bring up a good point about having him tested.

I believe that if she does not contribute to the financial upbringing of the child, and she also does not emotionally support him, and the threats to take the child out of state to an undisclosed location, that should warrant some type of change in circumstances. I'm not trying to shape the story; I'm trying to get you to understand what kind of nightmare this woman is.

And we're trying to get you to understand that the circumstances you are trying to hang your hat on do NOT qualify as a change of circumstances under the law.

OP, you're still not understanding the fundamental truth that your opinions, your thoughts, mean absolutely nothing.

The real question though - even ignoring the coat of many colours - is why Dad hasn't bothered to do anything in 2 years. Two years.

In other words, while you're so eager to paint her the evil harridan, you're ignoring the fact that Dad isn't exactly a stellar parent himself. In fact, some might say he's worse... because he's known all of this and still chosen to do nothing about it. It's easier to blame someone else when your own conduct is under fire, isn't it?

From the child's point of view he's no different than the other parent.

I do agree and I follow and respect your advice. I was just trying to help him the best way possible without throwing him under the bus so to speak. Exactly what I told him. "You need to forget the past, file the docs, and start over" That way if she drops the ball he has evidence to use. Like denying visitation etc.

Please send him here.

I thought not liking how Mom spends the money was theproblem when I read "In 2014, she returned from wherever she was and wants him to give her money for whatever reason. (We can prove she uses the money for her own benefit; hair, nails, going to clubs, etc)" Then when I read "I believe that if she does not contribute to the financial upbringing of the child" "that should warrant some type of change in circumstances", I knew I was right. First, even if Mom took the money he handed her and bought something for herself, that is not proof that she is not spending the child support on the child. Maybe the Mom paid a bill and she took the money to pay herself back. Like it or not, it can work that way. Dad doesn't like how Mom is spending his money. Well, he should have thought about that before he slept with her.

Heh. I'll use any excuse I can to use the "swimming pool analogy"

Switcharoo the pronouns..

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Treat your checking account like a swimming pool. Every month, you add 500 gallons of water from child support. You add another 1000 gallons from your job. Maybe you have a birthday and get another 50 gallons for gifts.

Now, you take 300 gallons out to pay your rent. You take 200 gallons out for food. Another 200 gallons for medical care.

How in the world would you be expected to know that the gallons you took out for food, clothing, etc was the same as the money that went in for child care? Obviously, you can't.

Bottom line is that as long as the child is fed and clothed and has shelter, ex has no say in how child support is spent.

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Taa-daaaaaa!

Thank you, thank you.

So a new development; not sure if this would change anyone's perception but:

We found out over the weekend she left the state again for somewhere on the east coast. Now the child is with his dad at our house.

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Quoting joes2580

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So a new development; not sure if this would change anyone's perception but:

We found out over the weekend she left the state again for somewhere on the east coast. Now the child is with his dad at our house.

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Then it would appear to be time for dad to bring a motion to modify custody based upon mom's effectively making him the primary custodian.

As far as serving the papers, can they serve in publication?

Also, if she is gone, and dad just "kept" him where he resides, is there anything wrong with that? Or would that cause problems?

As long as she made proper arangements for the child to be cared for when not with Dad, there is nothing wrong with her leaving the state. Having a child together doesn't mean that you have a right to keep tabs on where the other parent.

I know the last part of that statement is not entirely correct; mother and father are supposed to know where each other lives & works etc. at all times whether it's written on paper or not.

What is your reference for that ? The main concern is that someone have the authority to sign Permission To Treat papers. That person doesn't have to be a parent. Also that the child be in the care of someone who is responsible.

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Quoting joes2580

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I know the last part of that statement is not entirely correct; mother and father are supposed to know where each other lives & works etc. at all times whether it's written on paper or not.

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Want to post a link to the law that says so?