Littering Ticket for Putting Ash Out of the Window on a Highway, VC 23111

My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

I received a ticket for a violation of 23111vc: No person in any vehicle and no pedestrian shall throw or discharge from or upon any road or highway or adjoining area, public or private, any lighted or nonlighted cigarette, cigar, match, or any flaming or glowing substance. This section shall be known as the Paul Buzzo Act.

The officer wrote on the ticket "ash out window" from what I read I think ash was removed from that particular piece of the vc and in preparation am trying to find that case and can not do so. Can anyone tell me if my information is wrong or if they have a case I can refrence in my trail?

Either the officer will testify that the ashes were glowing, or risk losing his case based upon the fact that he should have cited you for violating VC 23112.

Sure, but since she didn't write glowing ash but did write ash, wouldn't that put me in a better position? Or am I just over thinking it. Note: this was early afternoon, not night where one could tell something like that.

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Quoting mrnoah

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Sure, but since she didn't write glowing ash but did write ash, wouldn't that put me in a better position? Or am I just over thinking it. Note: this was early afternoon, not night where one could tell something like that.

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Ash can be glowing or not glowing. It might glow more at night than during the day. The statutory intent is obviously to prevent fires and to a lesser extent, littering. If the court finds that the ash came from the end of a lighted cigarette, you're probably toast, even if the officer didn't write "glowing" on the citation or even if the officer can't say they observed a "glow."

I've seen a police officer dump a whole ash tray on the road at a dead stop but I'm guessing the ashes were cold and this might not have been a violation of the statute cited.

As Mr. K. points out, 23112 may turn out to actually be the correct statute. Watch out in case the officer or the court tries to amend the charge after your trial starts.

I think TBD is a good first step for you. If you could testify truthfully that the ash was cool when you let it go, that would be one thing. Otherwise, just plead "not guilty" at TBD and don't offer testimony. If you say anything incriminating on the charge made, it will be used against you, even if the officer fails to respond at TBD.

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Quoting mrnoah

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Sure, but since she didn't write glowing ash but did write ash, wouldn't that put me in a better position? Or am I just over thinking it. Note: this was early afternoon, not night where one could tell something like that.

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Did you toss the ash by emptying your ash tray or by tapping it off the end of your cigarette.

If the latter, I really don't see a defense.

Good luck.

Only you can prevent forest fires!

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Quoting PADriver13

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Only you can prevent forest fires!

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RIP Smokey the Bear :-)

Putting out ash from a lighted cigarette can result in much more than a ticket. In my state a few years back a passenger flicked out lighted ash out his window. Unfortunately for the passenger, there had been no rain for weeks and the grass on the side of the road was tinder dry. It was set ablaze almost immediately, which the car behind them observed. The resulting fire caused well over a hundred thousand dollars in damage before it was extinguished, for which the passenger was liable to pay. The passenger was lucky that it was called in promptly and put out as soon as it was or it could have been far worse. Anyone who thinks tossing out hot ash from their cigarette out his/her car window is not a big deal should keep this example in mind.

Thanks for all the serious feedback so quickly. it was off of a cigerette, but the cig can gone out and I was tapping the ash oftoon prep to relight. I didn't realize they could change the charge in the courtroom to 23112 but I guess that makes sense. Sorry for my ignorance but what does the TBD stand for. As for the responses about forest fires, it was a closed highway with no shrubbery and considering that I have since this incident been ashing into my hand and dumping it into a bag with zero discomfort I seriously doubt that that would be a possibility in any circumstances, possibly because my brand of cigs does not use any accelerate in their product.

Okay, lets look at basic physics. A lit cigarette, being fueled by air pressure from a window down circulating air in a vehicle burns faster, not out. Unless you are trying to argue you were driving through an large, unexpected pocket of carbon dioxide, that was not disturbed by the front of your vehicle.

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Quoting mrnoah

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Thanks for all the serious feedback so quickly. it was off of a cigerette, but the cig can gone out and I was tapping the ash oftoon prep to relight. I didn't realize they could change the charge in the courtroom to 23112 but I guess that makes sense. Sorry for my ignorance but what does the TBD stand for. As for the responses about forest fires, it was a closed highway with no shrubbery and considering that I have since this incident been ashing into my hand and dumping it into a bag with zero discomfort I seriously doubt that that would be a possibility in any circumstances, possibly because my brand of cigs does not use any accelerate in their product.

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That's your story.

Everybody who ever gets a traffic ticket has a self serving story.

The officer will say he saw you flicking hot ashes of a lit cigarette.

The judge will believe the officer and find you guilty.

Hold a match in front of a fan... take physics again.

TBD is Trial By Declaration or more properly Trial By Written Declaration. Usually a favorable option since the cop might not send their written statement in on time and even if you're convicted, you can go to TDN or Trial de Novo in court.

In a California Traffic Infraction case, jeopardy attaches at the deposit of bail so an amendment of the charge without the agreement of the defendant (i.e. to a reduced charge) would be legally improper. That's not to say it never happens but it should definitely be objected to on constitutional grounds.

I've even heard a police officer make a motion to reduce a charge in court. Completely improper by a non-lawyer and a person not representing the DA but not objected to as it obviously benefited the defendant.

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Quoting mrnoah

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Hold a match in front of a fan... take physics again.

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Given the relatively low density of ash from a cigarette, my guess is that it would be down to almost zero airspeed in half a second. If that's true, I wouldn't assume the heat was dissipated by the wind created by the car's movement.

God bless Paul Buzzo

Thanks for the info.
My statment about the match was not in regards to heat dissipation but that fire can be put oit by wind, referring to my comment about my cigerette being extinguished, enven though I never said it went out in the wind.

I live in a rural part of the state. Avery summer and fall we have to deal with dozens of freeway and highway fires that are the result of people dumping lit ashes from cigarettes. It IS a very real danger.

Next time, use the ash tray and leave the window closed and you won't have to go through all of this.

Ok, I totally hear what people are saying about fires and what the officer might say. Now my question is about dashcam video, such video would be unbiased and would show if I had done something that represents a true fire hazard. Does anyone know how one would go about requesting dash cam video from the CHP? All I can find online is how to do it in Florida.

There is not likely to be any dash cam as it normally only comes on after the lights/siren have been hit.

Huh, I thought the whole point of dash cams was to protect the officers and the public from false charges. That seems like a big blind spot... On a side note, one of my biggest concerns with this whole situation is what this will do to my record. I am a member of and attempting to become a member of other organizations that require you to be an upstanding citizen defined as no criminal convictions. My job entails working closely with several law enforcement agencies (although thankfully not in this area) and am concerned about what this situation may do to that relationship. I don't ask these people about the situation because I don't want them to think less of me. I know I am going to have to go to court, and I will plead not guilty, but it seems likely I will lose. The fine itself is not the end of the worldl, nor is the community service, I already volunteer on a regular basis (albeit not picking on trash on the side of the highway like a chain gang criminal). Having a clean record is very important to me personally and professionally. Anyone know what a conviction in this case would mean for my record?
Btw, before anyone says anything about it, I had no idea ashing out my window was against the law, I know ignorance of the law has no bearing on the situation but I could really do without the inevitable "then you shouldn't have broken the law" comments this post will garner.

Littering is in fact an issue of morality and in your area the exercise of good judgment and responsibility. We cannot change that, just because you feel it will affect you professionally.

It's obvious that non of you posters are smokers except OP. When you flick the burnt ash off a cigarette it is not glowing or burning. The burning ash stays with the cigarette. It's one thing to flick a lit cigarette out the car window and totally another to flick the ash.

And I would defy any officer to be able to see a burnt ash being flicked from inside the car out a car window while the car was moving. It disintegrates into dust the moment it hits the air stream.

And OP's claim that he was attempting to relight the cigarette is very plausible. In 2010 all cigarettes sold in the US had to be self-extinguishing if there was no draw on it. The cigarettes sold today will go out if you just hold them or place them in an ashtray. A smoker today may have to relight a cigarette two or three times especially while driving. It's a real pain in the butt.

This is an infraction, right? Although many aspects of California criminal procedure are followed, I don't think that's what most people think of when they're talking about someone's "record." Are you being asked about your infraction history?

I was a smoker until 92. 3 packs a day. No forest fires because I have common sense.

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Quoting budwad

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It's obvious that non of you posters are smokers except OP. When you flick the burnt ash off a cigarette it is not glowing or burning. The burning ash stays with the cigarette. It's one thing to flick a lit cigarette out the car window and totally another to flick the ash.

And I would defy any officer to be able to see a burnt ash being flicked from inside the car out a car window while the car was moving. It disintegrates into dust the moment it hits the air stream.

And OP's claim that he was attempting to relight the cigarette is very plausible. In 2010 all cigarettes sold in the US had to be self-extinguishing if there was no draw on it. The cigarettes sold today will go out if you just hold them or place them in an ashtray. A smoker today may have to relight a cigarette two or three times especially while driving. It's a real pain in the butt.

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Quoting mrnoah

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Huh, I thought the whole point of dash cams was to protect the officers and the public from false charges. That seems like a big blind spot... On a side note, one of my biggest concerns with this whole situation is what this will do to my record. I am a member of and attempting to become a member of other organizations that require you to be an upstanding citizen defined as no criminal convictions. My job entails working closely with several law enforcement agencies (although thankfully not in this area) and am concerned about what this situation may do to that relationship. I don't ask these people about the situation because I don't want them to think less of me. I know I am going to have to go to court, and I will plead not guilty, but it seems likely I will lose. The fine itself is not the end of the worldl, nor is the community service, I already volunteer on a regular basis (albeit not picking on trash on the side of the highway like a chain gang criminal). Having a clean record is very important to me personally and professionally. Anyone know what a conviction in this case would mean for my record?
Btw, before anyone says anything about it, I had no idea ashing out my window was against the law, I know ignorance of the law has no bearing on the situation but I could really do without the inevitable "then you shouldn't have broken the law" comments this post will garner.

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A traffic ticket will not be part of a criminal offender record. It is a traffic ticket that generally requires a mandatory appearance. You could face fines and be part of a road cleanup crew if convicted.

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Quoting budwad

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It's obvious that non of you posters are smokers except OP. When you flick the burnt ash off a cigarette it is not glowing or burning. The burning ash stays with the cigarette. It's one thing to flick a lit cigarette out the car window and totally another to flick the ash.

And I would defy any officer to be able to see a burnt ash being flicked from inside the car out a car window while the car was moving. It disintegrates into dust the moment it hits the air stream.

And OP's claim that he was attempting to relight the cigarette is very plausible. In 2010 all cigarettes sold in the US had to be self-extinguishing if there was no draw on it. The cigarettes sold today will go out if you just hold them or place them in an ashtray. A smoker today may have to relight a cigarette two or three times especially while driving. It's a real pain in the butt.

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<raises hand> I've seen it! VERY obvious sometimes, most often at night. That's what catches our eye - the glowing embers. In the daytime, I'd have hit him for 23112.

At this point, it's POSSIBLE that the OP will be able to get off if he goes to court. Unless the officer can testify that he saw the glowing embers, the court may well side with the OP. Since it's a zero point violation, he stands to lose only time by attending court a couple of times.

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Quoting cdwjava

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<raises hand> I've seen it! VERY obvious sometimes, most often at night. That's what catches our eye - the glowing embers. In the daytime, I'd have hit him for 23112.

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I am not speaking about someone throwing a lit or otherwise cigarette out the car window. I'm speaking about flicking a cigarette ash out the window which is what OP said is what he did.

I think you are saying that if you saw a driver "raises hand" in the daytime you would sight them for 23112.

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23112. (a) No person shall throw or deposit, nor shall the
registered owner or the driver, if such owner is not then present in
the vehicle, aid or abet in the throwing or depositing upon any
highway any bottle, can, garbage, glass, nail, offal, paper, wire,
any substance likely to injure or damage traffic using the highway,
or any noisome, nauseous, or offensive matter of any kind.
(b) No person shall place, deposit, or dump, or cause to be
placed, deposited, or dumped, any rocks, refuse, garbage, or dirt in
or upon any highway, including any portion of the right-of-way
thereof, without the consent of the state or local agency having
jurisdiction over the highway.

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Carl, where in this code is the presumption that a "raised hand" equates to placing, depositing, or dumbing anything on the highway? Absent the observation that something was thrown out of the car onto the highway, I just don't see the connection.

Perhaps the "raised hand" was driver placing his arm on the armrest or flicking a fly away from his face or giving the driver to his left the high sign.

I'm not picking a fight here nor criticizing anyone but only making a comment. It troubles me that our courts have allowed more and more subjective evidence as 'observations of the officer' in to find a person guilty . "I observe the driver raise his hand and assumed that he threw something out the window." Really?

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Quoting budwad

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I am not speaking about someone throwing a lit or otherwise cigarette out the car window. I'm speaking about flicking a cigarette ash out the window which is what OP said is what he did.

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I understand what you said, and, yes, I have seen the glowing embers from the end of a cigarette hit the ground.

When I said I raised a hand, I meant MY hand with regards to having actually seen glowing embers (ash) from the end of a cigarette/cigarillo/cigar/etc.

I obviously misunderstood the raise hand comment.

But unless someone is putting his cigarette out and flicking the lit end out the window I still maintain that flicking a burnt ash out the window cannot be observed and that is what OP said he did. Why don't you ask some of your smoking colleagues. By the way, are you guys allowed to smoke in the patrol cars?

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Quoting budwad

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I obviously misunderstood the raise hand comment.

But unless someone is putting his cigarette out and flicking the lit end out the window I still maintain that flicking a burnt ash out the window cannot be observed and that is what OP said he did. Why don't you ask some of your smoking colleagues. By the way, are you guys allowed to smoke in the patrol cars?

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Well, I know what I've seen ... and, I grew up around smokers, have seen burning embers burn holes in carpets, etc.

And, no, we are not permitted to use tobacco products in our vehicles at all ... however, sadly, that doesn't prevent many officers from doing so - especially when the Chief smokes or dips in HIS city car ... kinda hard to hold the officers accountable when that happens.