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Is an Award of Attorney Fees and Costs a Civil Judgment

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  • 02-04-2015, 02:43 PM
    as42dcwsdf2
    Is an Award of Attorney Fees and Costs a Civil Judgment
    My question involves judgment recovery in the State of:Pennsylvania

    Several years ago my ex filed a frivolous custody lawsuit against me. Subsequently the same Court issued a Final Order and ordered them to pay me $55,000 in Counsel Fees and Costs.

    Is this the same a Civil Judgment?

    Thank you
  • 02-04-2015, 03:30 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    If (as appears to be the case) you are stating that in the conclusion to the custody litigation the court denied the relief requested by your ex- and included in that judgment an award to you of $55,000 in attorney fees and costs then, yes, that award is part of a civil judgment.
  • 02-05-2015, 07:59 AM
    as42dcwsdf2
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    As always, thank you Mr. Knowitall. I appreciate your input and its much less expensive than speaking with my attorney. :friendly_wink:

    For clarity.
    My ex made unfounded allegations. I decided I was going to fight the allegations. I paid for evaluations. I paid a portion of and additionally accrued a very large legal bill. I litigated the allegations in custody court. I was awarded primary physical custody.

    Then, separately, I sued for counsel fees using 23 PA CSA 5339 and 23 PA CSA 6117(b) as the legal basis. I was then awarded fees.

    The words Civil Judgement are not in the Final Order, but you feel these are the same?

    Thank you again.

    Regards
  • 02-05-2015, 08:04 AM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    The two primary types of court are civil and criminal. A family court is a civil court, and thus a judgment that it enters is a civil judgment.
  • 02-05-2015, 08:20 AM
    adjusterjack
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    Quote:

    Quoting as42dcwsdf2
    View Post

    Then, separately, I sued for counsel fees using 23 PA CSA 5339 and 23 PA CSA 6117(b) as the legal basis. I was then awarded fees.

    Did you get paid the $55,000?

    I'm guessing you didn't or you wouldn't be here asking about the terminology when you should be asking what to do about collecting the money.
  • 02-05-2015, 08:34 AM
    as42dcwsdf2
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    Mr. Knowitall, thank you for clarifying

    adjusterjack, No I have not been paid. It's likely that I'll be asking more about how to collect soon.

    Thank you both.
  • 02-05-2015, 10:10 AM
    Mark Maroon
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    Quote:

    Quoting as42dcwsdf2
    View Post
    My ex made unfounded allegations. I decided I was going to fight the allegations. I paid for evaluations. I paid a portion of and additionally accrued a very large legal bill. I litigated the allegations in custody court. I was awarded primary physical custody.

    Then, separately, I sued for counsel fees using 23 PA CSA 5339 and 23 PA CSA 6117(b) as the legal basis. I was then awarded fees.

    The words Civil Judgement are not in the Final Order, but you feel these are the same?

    What you need is a JUDGMENT in the case and on the docket (yes, it would be a civil judgment, but the civil part isn't the issue). It doesn't matter what the court order says, if there's no judgment in the case and on the docket then you don't have a judgment. You can initiate collection proceedings on a judgment, but not on a court order. If you have access to the court docket electronically, then you can look it up yourself. If you don't have electronic access to the court docket, then you can call the court clerks and ask them if there is a judgment in the case, and if so then against whom and for what amount. If you have a court order, but no judgment, then you have to follow whatever procedures would be appropriate to convert the court order to a judgment. For instance, if you have a "non-jury verdict" awarding you money damages against the defendant, then I think you can simply file a praecipe to convert the non-jury verdict to a judgment.
  • 02-05-2015, 12:48 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    For purposes of enforcing a money judgment, the Pennsylvania Code defines "judgment" as "a judgment or order requiring the payment of money entered in any court which is subject to these rules, including a final or interlocutory order for payment of costs, except a judgment against the Commonwealth or a political subdivision". (Pennsylvania is not among the minority of states that allow jury trials for aspects of divorce or custody litigation.) If the OP seeks enforcement of the order through the issuing court, I don't think that it will be necessary to take additional steps to convert the trial court's final order and grant of sanctions into a different form of judgment; but certainly, we don't have access to the court's documents or records so I can't rule out the possibility of a need for additional steps.
  • 02-05-2015, 02:05 PM
    Mark Maroon
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    For purposes of enforcing a money judgment, the Pennsylvania Code defines "judgment" as "a judgment or order requiring the payment of money entered in any court which is subject to these rules, including a final or interlocutory order for payment of costs, except a judgment against the Commonwealth or a political subdivision". (Pennsylvania is not among the minority of states that allow jury trials for aspects of divorce or custody litigation.) If the OP seeks enforcement of the order through the issuing court, I don't think that it will be necessary to take additional steps to convert the trial court's final order and grant of sanctions into a different form of judgment; but certainly, we don't have access to the court's documents or records so I can't rule out the possibility of a need for additional steps.

    I understand that the rules define an "order requiring the payment of money entered in any court which is subject to these rules" as a "judgment". But good luck trying to get a writ of execution based on a court order when there is no actual judgment listed on the court docket. If that can actually be done, then I will stand corrected. If not, it's just a :wallbang:
  • 02-05-2015, 09:01 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    While I can see your position in relation to a jury verdict that had not yet been reduced to a judgment, Pennsylvania seems pretty clear on the enforcement of a judgment, a term that encompasses "a judgment or order requiring the payment of money entered in any court which is subject to these rules, including a final or interlocutory order for payment of costs". Execution is permitted against real and personal property under the very next section, Sec. 3101.1. Is there a statute, rule or case I should be looking at, under which the order described by the OP wouldn't fall under those provisions? I don't want to steer somebody wrong. While any states have provisions that can make things more difficult than this, certainly, but Pennsylvania seems to have removed unnecessary hurdles between getting an order for sanctions and enforcing that order.
  • 02-06-2015, 03:47 AM
    Mark Maroon
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    While I can see your position in relation to a jury verdict that had not yet been reduced to a judgment, Pennsylvania seems pretty clear on the enforcement of a judgment, a term that encompasses "a judgment or order requiring the payment of money entered in any court which is subject to these rules, including a final or interlocutory order for payment of costs". Execution is permitted against real and personal property under the very next section, Sec. 3101.1. Is there a statute, rule or case I should be looking at, under which the order described by the OP wouldn't fall under those provisions? I don't want to steer somebody wrong. While any states have provisions that can make things more difficult than this, certainly, but Pennsylvania seems to have removed unnecessary hurdles between getting an order for sanctions and enforcing that order.

    The rule that you cite here says:

    Rule 3101.1. Property Subject to Execution. Execution Within and After Five Years.
    (a)(1) Execution may issue within five years after entry of the judgment ...

    I don't know, but I think the issue here is "entry of the judgment" (I assume this means entry of the judgment into the court docket for the case). An "order requiring the payment of money" may well be a "judgment" by definition, but I am not sure that necessarily means there was an "entry of the judgment". I believe that you have to do something to get the "order requiring the payment of money" to become an "entry of the judgment". For instance, even when a judge signs a "NON-jury verdict" and orders payment from defendant to plaintiff (and that NON-jury verdict is entered into the court docket for the case), I think you still have to file something with the court to make the judge's NON-jury verdict into a judgment. I don't really know PA laws very well, so I can't point to any rule or case law and I could be totally wrong.
  • 02-06-2015, 06:48 AM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    I have provided the definition of judgment as used in that rule twice now, and it includes an order to pay money.

    I agree that differences between states can result in some confusion, especially over the finer details, but I don't see anything that is going to require the OP to jump through any additional hoops to enforce the award of sanctions.
  • 02-06-2015, 11:59 AM
    as42dcwsdf2
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    I’m still here and I greatly appreciate both Mr. Knowitall and Mark Maroon’s input and debate.

    Quote:

    Quoting Mark Maroon
    View Post
    If you have access to the court docket electronically, then you can look it up yourself.

    I have access to the docket and this is it says.

    MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER OF COURT FILED. ORDER ENTERED AS FOLLOWS.SEE FILE FOR DETAILS. ORDER ENTERED DEFT IS AWARDED COUNSEL FEES & COSTS IN THE AMT OF $55,865 TO BE PD BY PLTF. SUM TO BE PD W/I 90 DYS UNLESS PLTF MOTIONS FOR A HEG. THIS IS A FINAL ORDER.

    It does not say anything about a Judgment.

    Quote:

    Quoting Mark Maroon
    View Post
    then I think you can simply file a praecipe to convert the non-jury verdict to a judgment.

    After doing a google search for “praecipe to enter judgment” I’ve read a bit of the following but I need to read it a few more times before I half understand it.

    http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/23...hap200toc.html
    Rule 227.4. Entry of Judgment upon Praecipe of a Party.
    Rule 236. Notice by Prothonotary of Entry of Order or Judgment.
    Rule 237. Notice of Praecipe for Final Judgment.


    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    For purposes of enforcing a money judgment, the Pennsylvania Code defines

    Thank you VERY much for pointing me at this resource. The definition in 3101(a) is pretty clear.

    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    I don't want to steer somebody wrong.

    I greatly appreciate your help.


    Ok, with all that said, my-ex petitioned for a hearing for a payment plan, I asked for discovery and discovery was ordered however my ex came to the hearing for a payment plan without any of the discovery documents (bank records etc.). Eventually I got the bank records. Now I am working on the petition for a hearing for a payment plan in hopes that a payment plan will actually be ordered. I have very little confidence that they will pay though and as such I am looking into all ways to obtain some of the money that I am owed.

    Thank you both very much.
  • 02-06-2015, 12:09 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    You're welcome.
  • 02-07-2015, 06:57 AM
    Mark Maroon
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    Quote:

    Quoting as42dcwsdf2
    View Post
    After doing a google search for “praecipe to enter judgment” I’ve read a bit of the following but I need to read it a few more times before I half understand it.

    http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/23...hap200toc.html
    Rule 227.4. Entry of Judgment upon Praecipe of a Party.
    Rule 236. Notice by Prothonotary of Entry of Order or Judgment.
    Rule 237. Notice of Praecipe for Final Judgment.

    I think you are on the right track here. I don't think it is a difficult filing. You can probably do it yourself if you can figure out what to file, or if you still have an attorney of record, then they should probably file it. They shouldn't charge you anything for that filing (or a very minimal charge) because it's a simple filing with the court clerks - no appearance before a judge or anything like that required.

    I would get the judgment entered into the docket ASAP, irrespective of any possible settlement/payment plan - especially if you are uncertain whether or not she will actually enter into and honor a settlement/payment plan. Alternatively, if you/she is concerned that a civil judgment will make it's way to her credit report and adversely affect her ability to get credit, then not filing it might be some leverage to make sure that she enters into and honors the settlement/payment plan - and filing it might be a consequence of her failure to do so.
  • 02-07-2015, 08:17 AM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    I'm not seeing anything in the state's statutes or court rules that suggests that there is an additional step required to "get the judgment entered into the docket". What are you looking at?
  • 02-07-2015, 08:52 AM
    Mark Maroon
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    I'm not seeing anything in the state's statutes or court rules that suggests that there is an additional step required to "get the judgment entered into the docket". What are you looking at?

    I think there are a lot or practical procedures that are not explicitly stated in the PA rules. I am not licensed to practice in PA, but I know a number of attorneys who are, and they have told me that you have to have the judgment recorded in the court docket in order to collect or execute on it. I am only passing on what I have been told. It could be incorrect. You get what you pay for.

    Rule 227.4. Entry of Judgment upon Praecipe of a Party.
    In addition to the provisions of any Rule of Civil Procedure or Act of Assembly authorizing the prothonotary to enter judgment upon praecipe of a party and except as otherwise provided by Rule 1042.72(e)(3), the prothonotary shall, upon praecipe of a party:
    (1) enter judgment upon a nonsuit by the court, the verdict of a jury or the decision of a judge following a trial without jury
    (2) enter judgment when a court grants or denies relief but does not itself enter judgment or order the prothonotary to do so.

    Maybe one can get a writ of execution without entry of the judgment into the docket. If so, then I will stand corrected.
  • 02-07-2015, 12:33 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    Which is all well and good, but if you read the court rules I've already referenced you will find that the order, which falls under the definition of a judgment, can be entered by the prothonotary. Nobody here is arguing that you have to follow proper procedure with a judgment, but you seem to be focused on a semantic issue -- whether this is an "order" or a "judgment" -- which the court rule has resolved by defining it as a judgment.
  • 02-07-2015, 01:13 PM
    Mark Maroon
    Re: Civil Judgment Termonology
    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    Which is all well and good, but if you read the court rules I've already referenced you will find that the order, which falls under the definition of a judgment, can be entered by the prothonotary. Nobody here is arguing that you have to follow proper procedure with a judgment, but you seem to be focused on a semantic issue -- whether this is an "order" or a "judgment" -- which the court rule has resolved by defining it as a judgment.

    We have already established that an order is a judgment. That has never been my issue nor my concern.

    Yes, the order (that is a judgment) *can* be entered as a judgment by the prothonotary.

    But the problem is that the prothonotary is not going to enter the judgment unless someone tells them to enter the judgment.

    You seem to think that because someone has an order (which is a judgment) that they can obtain a writ of execution on that judgment. You seem to think that I am stuck on some semantic issue. I think you are wrong on both counts.

    If you know someone who has been able to obtain a writ of execution based on an order - that we have established is a judgment - but that has not been entered as a judgment, then please say so. If not, then I would put more weight on the opinions of the attorneys that I have spoken with who have told me that you have to enter the judgment before you can get a writ of execution. But who knows, maybe I misunderstood what they were telling me.
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