Are Stop Signs Enforceable in Privately Owned Parking Lots
My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: PA
I have been wondering about this for a while and today I googled it and spent some time looking for answers, just wondering what you guys think, also I read a few things on the net that said these signs are not enforceable, that also makes me wonder if handicap areas in private lots are enforceable by police. so whats the deal,, what is and is not enforceable in private areas/parking lots ?
Re: Are Stop Signs Enforceable in Privately Owned Parking Lots
There's no doubt that handicapped spots are enforceable. There are specific statutes that address them and people get cited all the time.
As for stop signs in parking lots, well, police can come on to private property to enforce any number of laws so I don't see why they couldn't cite somebody for running a stop sign in a business parking lot.
You aren't likely to find police sitting in those parking lots watching a stop sign but if you ran one and hit somebody, you're going to get nailed for it.
You're welcome to read the PA Vehicle Code:
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/vehicle_code/index.shtml
Re: Are Stop Signs Enforceable in Privately Owned Parking Lots
You should look at the relevant statutes and see what they say. For example, here's the statute for compliance stop and yield signs, 75 Pa.C.S.A. Sec. 3323; here are the definitions, 75 Pa.C.S.A. Sec. 102, where you can look up words like "roadway".
Re: Are Stop Signs Enforceable in Privately Owned Parking Lots
according to those I suspect they could give one a ticket for a stop sign,, that's interesting though, I read a few links that stated they could not enforce a stop sign on a privately owned lot such as a food store, thanks for clearing that up for me.
Re: Are Stop Signs Enforceable in Privately Owned Parking Lots
My father-in-law is a P.E. (civil) licensed in the State of PA. Handicapped parking spots on private property are only enforceable, provided that the local municipality has approved the signs. In other words, a local shopping mall, all on private propety, cannot have their employees simply mark spots as handicapped. Easy way to tell is that a valid handicapped spot, in addition to the actual sign, must also include the specific ordinance permitting the designation of a handicapped spot. There are actual local ordinances that must be followed in order to do that. Additionally, stop signs cannot just be placed, even on private property. Again, specific permits must be processed and submitted in order to erect traffic signs on private property. There is a good chance that if these specific procedures were not followed, you could argue your way out of the ticket.
For example, a local school district in PA decided to post signs on public roadways surrounding the school. The speed limit of these roads is typically 40, however, the school put up speed limit signs that said 25 mph between certain hours. The local PD made a killing pulling people over. My father-in-law was stopped and cited and took it to Court. No traffic studies were conducted etc. and the school board, acting on its own behalf, put signs up. No permits, no procedures, and he won the case in Court. Furthermore, he won an injunction that the signs be removed until a formal traffic study was completed and correct procedures/permits received.
Re: Are Stop Signs Enforceable in Privately Owned Parking Lots
that's pretty funny he won that case, its a good thing he knew what to look for,, I think those tickets carry double the fine as well, how can you verify a certain stop sign, who do you call ?
Re: Are Stop Signs Enforceable in Privately Owned Parking Lots
If the stop sign abuts a public road it is definitely enforceable.
Re: Are Stop Signs Enforceable in Privately Owned Parking Lots
Quote:
Quoting
tonynewman
that's pretty funny he won that case, its a good thing he knew what to look for,, I think those tickets carry double the fine as well, how can you verify a certain stop sign, who do you call ?
You would need an engineering study and traffic plan study pertaining to the specific road. Road signs cannot just be put up. There are formal procedures in PA for how road signs can be erected.