Fraudulently Adding a Small Tip to a Credit Card Charge

My question involves criminal law for the state of: UTAH

I'm in shock - considering that my husband has no prior record other than one speeding ticket in the last year. This is his first and only criminal offense.

My husband (of 14 years and 4 wonderful children) delivers food for his second job. About 10 days ago, he stupidly/impulsively added a $3 tip to a credit card slip. The customer reported it to the police and the police came last night to the business find out who it was. My hubby confessed immediately and he said the officer was amazingly nice and forgiving, but he will have to go to a judge and see where it goes from there. He was cited with a Class B Misdemeanor. But, being that it's for a credit card, the officer speculated that there's a slight chance it would be a felony. This is his first and only offense. He was asked by the police and business owner if he had done this before, and he did admit that there had been about 5-6 total times he's added tips under $3 since he started work there in October last year. From what he understood, both the boss and police man said that unless they get disputed, he won't be charged for those.

Any suggestions (besides the obvious of being polite in church dress and manner to the judge)?
What consequences (monetary and community wise) are we most likely looking at my husband getting?

Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Marian

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Quoting maidmarian4

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This is his first and only criminal offense.

He was asked by the police and business owner if he had done this before, and he did admit that there had been about 5-6 total times he's added tips under $3 since he started work there in October last year.

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It's not his first offense. It's the first time he got caught.

Money is tight for most people these days; When I order a pizza, I expect to pay the amount that I'm signing for, not to have the delivery guy add the tip he feels justified in getting to it.

This IS theft, pure and simple, and as you noted, it involves a credit card, which would make it a felony.

You want some advice? What I hear from the tone of your post is that this "isn't such a big deal," and what he did "isn't that bad." Whether this is just you feeling this way, or you and he both feel that way, I can tell you this much: the prosecutor and certainly the judge don't want to see that attitude; it's called having no remorse, and trying to justify one's actions.

This IS a big deal. It is THEFT, and the worst kind of theft: from individuals who need their money to pay their own bills, send their own kids to preschool, and put gas in their cars so that THEY can get to work and make an HONEST living.

As for consequences, I don't live in Utah and I don't know the courts there, so I can't help with that. He will have a criminal record; that is about the only thing that is certain.

Cops are often friendly, especially when you make their jobs easy by confessing. He should not be duped into thinking this is helping him.
He needs to be talking to an attorney. Just putting on your sunday clothes and acting nice in court is not going to mitigate his criminal behavior.

I don't know the charge, but if they put together his repeated thefts it could be quite severe. In fact, they may hang identity fraud on him which is a felony at any monetary level.
You can bet this is going to cost him. He might even spend some time in jail. Probation is almost a given.

I bet it was a debt card, and that 3 bucks caused an overdraft charge/alert,, that's how the victim found out so soon, those overdraft charges are around 25bucks too

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Quoting maidmarian4

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My question involves criminal law for the state of: UTAH

I'm in shock - considering that my husband has no prior record other than one speeding ticket in the last year. This is his first and only criminal offense.

My husband (of 14 years and 4 wonderful children) delivers food for his second job. About 10 days ago, he stupidly/impulsively added a $3 tip to a credit card slip. The customer reported it to the police and the police came last night to the business find out who it was. My hubby confessed immediately and he said the officer was amazingly nice and forgiving, but he will have to go to a judge and see where it goes from there. He was cited with a Class B Misdemeanor. But, being that it's for a credit card, the officer speculated that there's a slight chance it would be a felony. This is his first and only offense. He was asked by the police and business owner if he had done this before, and he did admit that there had been about 5-6 total times he's added tips under $3 since he started work there in October last year. From what he understood, both the boss and police man said that unless they get disputed, he won't be charged for those.

Any suggestions (besides the obvious of being polite in church dress and manner to the judge)?
What consequences (monetary and community wise) are we most likely looking at my husband getting?

Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Marian

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Your attitude that this isn't a big deal is disgusting. I'm almost sure that if you were on the receiving end of such theft, you wouldn't be so blase'. $3 or $300, it wasn't his money to take. I don't see why this wouldn't be embezzlement either.

I'd also suspect that your husband's job prospects are going to become very slim, especially anything that involves a position of trust.

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Quoting maidmarian4

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What consequences (monetary and community wise) are we most likely looking at my husband getting?

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The Utah penalty for a Class B Misdemeanor is up to 6 months in jail and up to $1000 in fines plus surcharges.

If it turns out to be felony level, the lowest felony (Third Degree) is punishable by up to 5 years in prison and up to $5000 in fines plus surcharges.

Whether he gets the maximum depends on factors and circumstances that are impossible to predict.

As for community consequences, the case is public record so anybody can see it. If you are in a small town and it's a slow news day, his case could hit the newspapers. He could end up a pariah in the community.

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Quoting maidmarian4

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Any suggestions

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Yes.

Tell your husband to keep his mouth shut and hire a lawyer.

This is some serious s--t he's gotten himself into.

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Quoting tonynewman

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I bet it was a debt card, and that 3 bucks caused an overdraft charge/alert,, that's how the victim found out so soon, those overdraft charges are around 25bucks too

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Worse than that. They compound. So another bill was going through, now you have overdrafted - that can mean hundreds of dollars adding up fast, over an additional $3 added on by the pizza or Chinese delivery guy.

If that happened to me, I'd want his azz in jail.

adjusterjack,,, its a bit late for him to keep his mouth shut, he done told the cop he has done this 5 to 6 times,, so you know that will be used against him in court,, that's about the worst thing he could have told the cop. the judge will look at that statement and come down hard im betting.

Everyone always fixates on not talking to cops, which could be a good idea or not depending on the circumstances.

The better advice that I don't see nearly as often is "Don't break the law!"

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Quoting DeputyDog

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Everyone always fixates on not talking to cops, which could be a good idea or not depending on the circumstances.

The better advice that I don't see nearly as often is "Don't break the law!"

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its never a good idea to talk to the police under any circumstances, unless you are the one that called the police for some reason. even if you are completely innocent you should never talk to the police.

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Quoting DeputyDog

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Everyone always fixates on not talking to cops, which could be a good idea or not depending on the circumstances.

The better advice that I don't see nearly as often is "Don't break the law!"

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Hear, hear!!!

Hubby is looking at:
- Being fired from his job. (Not good on job applications)
- Not collecting Unemployment.
- Expenses for a lawyer (sorry, even a Public Defender is not free).
- Court costs and fines. Restitution to his victims.
- Possibles: Community Service, Probation, Jail....
- And difficulty finding employment for many years, since aps ask "Have you ever been fired from a job?" and "Have you ever been convicted of a crime, even a misdemeanor" and he will find that a $10 background check will show the answer as "yes".

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Quoting tonynewman

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its never a good idea to talk to the police under any circumstances, unless you are the one that called the police for some reason. even if you are completely innocent you should never talk to the police.

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We've hashed this out on here a few times, most recently about a month ago.

There are consequences, bad and good to talking to the police. A truly innocent person needs to weigh those potential consequences in their particular case.

Let's suppose you are walking down the street. Some mentally unstable, delusional person, for reasons unknown, decides to call the police and say that you exposed yourself to her. Let's say that not only did you not do it, you didn't do anything that could be misconstrued as that, you didn't talk to her, you didn't see her. Now I realize that the scenario I'm painting is a 1/10,000 anyway, because usually where there's smoke, there's fire (i.e. people don't just totally make things like this up for no reason.) But let's suppose this is the 1/10,000.

So the cops come. This is one crime in this state that they don't have to witness; they can arrest you with probable cause. So they talk to the liar, who says you did it. They come to talk to you. You decide that it's NEVER a good idea to talk to the police, so you say "I'm declining to speak to you at all and I want a lawyer." The police might say "OK, he's not refuting her claims, she's willing to make a statement. OK, we'll arrest him and let the prosecutor and judge sort it out." You are now on your way to jail, possibly being held without bond for days until your court appearance, and the whole judicial process swings into motion.

Now suppose that when they came up, you spoke to them and said "I have to tell you, I have NO idea what she's talking about. I've never seen her before, I sure as hell didn't do what she's saying I did." Now the situation is your word against hers. Absent any other evidence weighing things one way or the other, there's a good chance the police will say "OK, we'll make a report, send it to the prosecutor to decide what to do, you can wait for the prosecutor's decision on whether you will be charged with anything." And you will avoid going to jail, probably avoid losing your job while you spend days in jail waiting to go before a judge, etc.

People do screw themselves by not talking to the cops, and they do screw themselves by talking to the cops. You have to weigh the situation and of course whether you are actually guilty or not in making a decision. But the blanket statement that you should "never talk to the police under any circumstances" is bull.

I disagree,, someone posted this video here a while back,, its really interesting,, you should watch it,, it explains why you should never talk to the police even if your completely innocent, it talks about scenarios like you described around 12mins in, I watched the entire thing, it even has a cop talking about this subject in the end

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

I'm very familiar with that video. I've seen it discussed in police forums as well as lawyer forums. Both the cop and the lawyer make good points and there is much validity there.

However, it is still case by case. There are times where a simple matter can be cleared up if someone talks, whereas not talking will greatly complicate things to the defendant's detriment.

it might make it more complicated from a policeman or prosecutor stand point, not for the person being questioned, like the lawyer said, "you cant talk yourself out of not being arrested"

the lawyer also said that even if your innocent, there is plenty of time to tell your side of the story in court. nothing good can come from talking to the police even if your innocent.

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Quoting tonynewman

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nothing good can come from talking to the police even if your innocent.

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That is not true, but the chance of something good happening has to be weighed against the chance of something bad happening.

in the video, the lawyer said that in court, a policeman cannot testify to any statement that the defendant made that could help the defendant, it would be objected to, considered hearsay

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Quoting DeputyDog

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It's not his first offense. It's the first time he got caught.

Money is tight for most people these days; When I order a pizza, I expect to pay the amount that I'm signing for, not to have the delivery guy add the tip he feels justified in getting to it.

This IS theft, pure and simple, and as you noted, it involves a credit card, which would make it a felony.

You want some advice? What I hear from the tone of your post is that this "isn't such a big deal," and what he did "isn't that bad." Whether this is just you feeling this way, or you and he both feel that way, I can tell you this much: the prosecutor and certainly the judge don't want to see that attitude; it's called having no remorse, and trying to justify one's actions.

This IS a big deal. It is THEFT, and the worst kind of theft: from individuals who need their money to pay their own bills, send their own kids to preschool, and put gas in their cars so that THEY can get to work and make an HONEST living.

As for consequences, I don't live in Utah and I don't know the courts there, so I can't help with that. He will have a criminal record; that is about the only thing that is certain.

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Quoting CourtClerk

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Your attitude that this isn't a big deal is disgusting. I'm almost sure that if you were on the receiving end of such theft, you wouldn't be so blase'. $3 or $300, it wasn't his money to take. I don't see why this wouldn't be embezzlement either.

I'd also suspect that your husband's job prospects are going to become very slim, especially anything that involves a position of trust.

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Where in my post do I say it is NOT a big deal? This is a FREAKING BIG DEAL. And for him to think that adding $1-3 tip just because is INSANE and SELFISH. That is why I'm so distraught about this.

He has a second appointment with a psychiatrist that (a month or so before the police came) suspects he is bipolar. The more I read about bipolar, the more I see that that diagnosis would explain a bit of the whys (NOT AN EXCUSE though).

I can't believe that somehow my post was taken in a way that I think it is no big deal. I don't even know what to think. I don't know anyone else that has done this. I don't associate with people that commit crimes (whether caught or not). But, now my own husband has done this. It's sickening. I made an emergency appt with my therapist because I know how much of a big deal this is. This is WRONG, and definitely criminal.

Marian

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I realize now that by using the word "impulsively" I sound like I'm not taking this seriously. Or that I think it is no big deal. That is entirely wrong. This is a huge deal. This has affected the person(s) he stole from, the place of business he did this with, himself, and our family of four children... along with all that goes with the charge(s) and costs of the consequences of outright stealing.

I honestly don't know what to do "with him." So much of me loves him of course, but for him to do this just makes me feel like it is not going to end well. Where are his priorities? That is another reason why I'm wondering what the possible consequences and outcomes could be, and how to ride them out the most wise way possible.

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Quoting tonynewman

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I bet it was a debt card, and that 3 bucks caused an overdraft charge/alert,, that's how the victim found out so soon, those overdraft charges are around 25bucks too

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I told my husband the same thing when I found out. It probably screwed up the customer's bank account. All for $3 that my husband wanted as a tip. It doesn't make an ounce of sense.

whats really bad for your husband was the statement he made to the police about having done this 5 or 6 times, even though this is the first time he was caught, that statement is so damaging to his case, the judge will likely make an example out of him, as for the penalties I would guess anything from a fine, to prison if it goes badly, what he needs is a very good lawyer at once.

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Quoting tonynewman

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whats really bad for your husband was the statement he made to the police about having done this 5 or 6 times, even though this is the first time he was caught, that statement is so damaging to his case, the judge will likely make an example out of him, as for the penalties I would guess anything from a fine, to prison if it goes badly, what he needs is a very good lawyer at once.

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Where would I find out the statement. My husband says he is sure that when he signed the report, that the officer reported the one incident and no others.

He did lose his job at the business (who wouldn't - it was stealing). His boss said that the business wouldn't take any action against him unless the customer sued the company.

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Quoting maidmarian4

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Where would I find out the statement. My husband says he is sure that when he signed the report, that the officer reported the one incident and no others.

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What the "office reports" is by and large meaningless. The prosecutor is free to do his own research as to the extent of your husbands turpitude.

im not sure, I guess in some states when you get served the papers for the court date it could be with those, other times you may need to request them,, but once you hire a lawyer he will get and look over all the evidence that they are going to use in court, statements, witnesses etc. its going to be on the cops statement that he writes up though.

after you get a lawyer he will explain the case that's against you after looking over everything, what you need to do is find a really good defense lawyer for a case like this one. that's what I would do, good luck

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Quoting flyingron

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What the "office reports" is by and large meaningless. The prosecutor is free to do his own research as to the extent of your husbands turpitude.

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1. Do prosecutors typically (by one's individual observations) do more research into a first offender with a class B misdemeanor charge?
2. So, when he goes to the prosecutor tomorrow, does he make sure to say that he is pleading not guilty and then requesting a PD?
3. What kind of questions or statements should he make to the prosecutor?
4. Is this when he'd ask for a diversion?

Thank you all for your advice.

They typically do research when they think there are more crimes that were committed and it is worth the interests of justice to pursue them.
He doesn't go to the prosecutor PERIOD in most places. He tells the judge his plea and that he needs a PD (if he is indigent rather than just being greedy).
He shouldn't make any statements to ANYONE without the benefit of counsel.

So does he ask the judge for a diversion?

Sorry if this is a basic question. I just don't know much about criminal charges and process. My husband keeps thinking that he just needs a PD, and will do that when he goes to court or talks to the prosecutor (unless I guess that's not normal?).

We make about 37k/year. How would I find out if he is indigent? Does that mean jobless entirely?

(AGAIN - I really appreciate your suggestions!)

At $37K for a family of two, you will not qualify apparently (unless you've got 3 kids). Utah requires no more than 150% of the federal poverty guideline level which is down around $28,000 for 2.

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Quoting flyingron

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At $37K for a family of two, you will not qualify apparently (unless you've got 3 kids). Utah requires no more than 150% of the federal poverty guideline level which is down around $28,000 for 2.

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We have 4 kids (under 12 years old). So, I wonder if we would qualify? Also, my husband says that he actually makes about 38k.

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Quoting maidmarian4

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We have 4 kids (under 12 years old). So, I wonder if we would qualify? Also, my husband says that he actually makes about 38k.

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I thought he was fired? If so, his current income is $0.

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Quoting maidmarian4

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Where would I find out the statement. My husband says he is sure that when he signed the report, that the officer reported the one incident and no others.

He did lose his job at the business (who wouldn't - it was stealing). His boss said that the business wouldn't take any action against him unless the customer sued the company.

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I can guarantee you that your husband's statement is recorded in the officer's memo book.

If called upon to testify, he will refer to that memo book.

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Quoting jk

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I thought he was fired? If so, his current income is $0.

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The job where he was fraudulently adding tips for himself was his second job.

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Quoting jk

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I thought he was fired? If so, his current income is $0.

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He has a primary job that makes between 37-38k/year and four children with me under 12 years of age. This delivery job was his second job.

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Quoting maidmarian4

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He has a primary job that makes between 37-38k/year and four children with me under 12 years of age. This delivery job was his second job.

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ah, I missed that somewhere.


bad news. He is likely to use up a lot of the household resources for an attorney.



thanks to you too cbg.

As of this recent Monday, he has lost both jobs (the "main one" was lost due to a major depressive stage and he screwed up royally). So currently, we have no income. He's actively looking and at this point probably has a newspaper delivery job while looking for a more stable one.

I would guess that currently at our income now, UTAH would set him up with a PD.

He was given the citation and that was it. No processing that involved fingerprints or bringing him into the police station. He was given the citation at his delivery job, and then the officer left.

He did start meds for Bipolar almost a week ago. He saw his first Therapist this week. I will make sure to keep tabs on that. After this post, I plan on calling his Psychiatrist and telling them that I'd like a form saying that he has Bipolar disorder that I can hand to the ballif. He's still manic and is determined to talk with the Prosecutor. He heard from a lawyer that that was what he should do because they are the ones with power. I agree, but they also have power to really screw things up worse, right?

He has a court date on this upcoming Monday with the Judge.

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Quoting maidmarian4

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As of this recent Monday, he has lost both jobs (the "main one" was lost due to a major depressive stage and he screwed up royally). So currently, we have no income. He's actively looking and at this point probably has a newspaper delivery job while looking for a more stable one.

I would guess that currently at our income now, UTAH would set him up with a PD.

He was given the citation and that was it. No processing that involved fingerprints or bringing him into the police station. He was given the citation at his delivery job, and then the officer left.

He did start meds for Bipolar almost a week ago. He saw his first Therapist this week. I will make sure to keep tabs on that. After this post, I plan on calling his Psychiatrist and telling them that I'd like a form saying that he has Bipolar disorder that I can hand to the ballif. He's still manic and is determined to talk with the Prosecutor. He heard from a lawyer that that was what he should do because they are the ones with power. I agree, but they also have power to really screw things up worse, right?

He has a court date on this upcoming Monday with the Judge.

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So sorry to hear about your most recent difficulty - sounds like you have a long road ahead of you.

The prosecutor has no incentive to speak with your husband until the judge is in the room. There is nothing to be said then that can't wait until his first hearing in front of a judge - and if your husband is truly manic - nothing good can come of it.

Bi-Polar....be careful because the courts have heard this a lot. We've seen it a lot "So bi-polar that I could drive to WalMart, load up my cart, forgot the cash register, found my car, loaded up...". They have the capacity to think, and even know they are doing something wrong. So if used as a defense....expect that..."he drove to....added a tip....".

That said...mugshot/fingerprints likely will be ordered by the court at a later date, after sentencing or could be sooner.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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Bi-Polar....be careful because the courts have heard this a lot. We've seen it a lot "So bi-polar that I could drive to WalMart, load up my cart, forgot the cash register, found my car, loaded up...". They have the capacity to think, and even know they are doing something wrong. So if used as a defense....expect that..."he drove to....added a tip....".

That said...mugshot/fingerprints likely will be ordered by the court at a later date, after sentencing or could be sooner.

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This. I'll save myself the repeating. Everyone becomes bipolar once they've found their behind in a sling. Granted, some of those diagnosis are legitimate, no one has the desire to see someone until AFTER they've been arrested and they're looking for an excuse to stay out of trouble. Of course the other thing is just about ANYONE can get a bipolar diagnosis from somewhere. It's the stock mitigation answer.

Until he can get back to work, you need to start looking for a job and since he's going to have continued periods of mania, you may want to KEEP that job so that there is at least one constant source of income in the house. Until that happens, you'll most likely qualify for welfare.

When I had my car accident, I had this shrink come to talk to me and ask if my accident was a suicide attempt. I told her in no uncertain terms to get the **** out of my room!

So I got a Bi-Polar Diagnosis.

Throw in a few months later, when I've filed for Social Security Disability, Temp Disability, etc., and was sent to different docs for Psych Evals. And even as recent as a year ago for a full Psych Eval because I needed help getting new hearing aids. All those shrinks said "bi-polar? Who the heck said that? I don't see it".

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Quoting PandorasBox

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Bi-Polar....be careful because the courts have heard this a lot. We've seen it a lot "So bi-polar that I could drive to WalMart, load up my cart, forgot the cash register, found my car, loaded up...". They have the capacity to think, and even know they are doing something wrong. So if used as a defense....expect that..."he drove to....added a tip....".

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I get that several people will try to get a "fill-in-the-blank mental disorder" diagnosis to try to get out of consequences. This was actually his second visit with the Psychiatrist. The first psych visit was about a month before this citation. At that visit, the Psychiatrist suspected Bipolar, but requested that I come to his next eval so he could hear what I'd been experiencing over our 14 years of marriage. So, this most recent visit to the Psychiatrist is when he said my husband has "classic bipolar" and prescribed meds. I recounted things that had happened at the very beginning of our relationship that the Psychiatrist said were Bipolar actions or reactions.

It sounds like these people that plead Bipolar don't know much about Bipolar. There does need to be a consequence for stealing no matter your mental status as an adult. The pull I am I guess envisioning, is that there is a plan of action put in place to prevent this from happening ever again. He's being monitored by a PhD Psychiatrist and PhD Psychologist/Therapist. He knows that if he doesn't keep them as part of his action plan, I will leave him and take our kids.

I feel like I have to be his advocate at this point. He's not in a clear state of mind that would allow him to make good choices with his words and actions. I've been advised by my own Therapist that I really need to walk him through all this to hopefully barr any problems he may make worse by his state of mind.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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When I had my car accident, I had this shrink come to talk to me and ask if my accident was a suicide attempt. I told her in no uncertain terms to get the **** out of my room!

So I got a Bi-Polar Diagnosis.

Throw in a few months later, when I've filed for Social Security Disability, Temp Disability, etc., and was sent to different docs for Psych Evals. And even as recent as a year ago for a full Psych Eval because I needed help getting new hearing aids. All those shrinks said "bi-polar? Who the heck said that? I don't see it".

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Why did a shrink come to you? Only due to a car accident? That is insane that they would ask one question, make a conclusion, and be ready to prescribe you meds. That is unreasonable and honestly sickening that they would just jump to a diagnosis like that.

However, it is totally typical for a person with BPD to say they don't have any BPD. It is a classic response. They are on top of the world. My hubby was convinced he just had depression although he had moments of grandeur thinking that he could spend money like crazy or get away with different things. He also has spikes of angry rage that have lasted weeks. It's not an easy diagnosis for your spouse to have.

make sure you monitor his meds VERY closely, my best friend died last week, from a heart failure he was on some type of cocktail of meds, depression, bipolar, I was the last person to talk to him, I think he took too many or not enough last week and started telling me crazy stuff over the phone, and after he hung up I think he took too many to get to sleep and he died.