Fraudulently Adding a Small Tip to a Credit Card Charge

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Quoting DeputyDog

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Everyone always fixates on not talking to cops, which could be a good idea or not depending on the circumstances.

The better advice that I don't see nearly as often is "Don't break the law!"

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Hear, hear!!!

Hubby is looking at:
- Being fired from his job. (Not good on job applications)
- Not collecting Unemployment.
- Expenses for a lawyer (sorry, even a Public Defender is not free).
- Court costs and fines. Restitution to his victims.
- Possibles: Community Service, Probation, Jail....
- And difficulty finding employment for many years, since aps ask "Have you ever been fired from a job?" and "Have you ever been convicted of a crime, even a misdemeanor" and he will find that a $10 background check will show the answer as "yes".

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Quoting tonynewman

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its never a good idea to talk to the police under any circumstances, unless you are the one that called the police for some reason. even if you are completely innocent you should never talk to the police.

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We've hashed this out on here a few times, most recently about a month ago.

There are consequences, bad and good to talking to the police. A truly innocent person needs to weigh those potential consequences in their particular case.

Let's suppose you are walking down the street. Some mentally unstable, delusional person, for reasons unknown, decides to call the police and say that you exposed yourself to her. Let's say that not only did you not do it, you didn't do anything that could be misconstrued as that, you didn't talk to her, you didn't see her. Now I realize that the scenario I'm painting is a 1/10,000 anyway, because usually where there's smoke, there's fire (i.e. people don't just totally make things like this up for no reason.) But let's suppose this is the 1/10,000.

So the cops come. This is one crime in this state that they don't have to witness; they can arrest you with probable cause. So they talk to the liar, who says you did it. They come to talk to you. You decide that it's NEVER a good idea to talk to the police, so you say "I'm declining to speak to you at all and I want a lawyer." The police might say "OK, he's not refuting her claims, she's willing to make a statement. OK, we'll arrest him and let the prosecutor and judge sort it out." You are now on your way to jail, possibly being held without bond for days until your court appearance, and the whole judicial process swings into motion.

Now suppose that when they came up, you spoke to them and said "I have to tell you, I have NO idea what she's talking about. I've never seen her before, I sure as hell didn't do what she's saying I did." Now the situation is your word against hers. Absent any other evidence weighing things one way or the other, there's a good chance the police will say "OK, we'll make a report, send it to the prosecutor to decide what to do, you can wait for the prosecutor's decision on whether you will be charged with anything." And you will avoid going to jail, probably avoid losing your job while you spend days in jail waiting to go before a judge, etc.

People do screw themselves by not talking to the cops, and they do screw themselves by talking to the cops. You have to weigh the situation and of course whether you are actually guilty or not in making a decision. But the blanket statement that you should "never talk to the police under any circumstances" is bull.

I disagree,, someone posted this video here a while back,, its really interesting,, you should watch it,, it explains why you should never talk to the police even if your completely innocent, it talks about scenarios like you described around 12mins in, I watched the entire thing, it even has a cop talking about this subject in the end

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

I'm very familiar with that video. I've seen it discussed in police forums as well as lawyer forums. Both the cop and the lawyer make good points and there is much validity there.

However, it is still case by case. There are times where a simple matter can be cleared up if someone talks, whereas not talking will greatly complicate things to the defendant's detriment.

it might make it more complicated from a policeman or prosecutor stand point, not for the person being questioned, like the lawyer said, "you cant talk yourself out of not being arrested"

the lawyer also said that even if your innocent, there is plenty of time to tell your side of the story in court. nothing good can come from talking to the police even if your innocent.

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Quoting tonynewman

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nothing good can come from talking to the police even if your innocent.

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That is not true, but the chance of something good happening has to be weighed against the chance of something bad happening.

in the video, the lawyer said that in court, a policeman cannot testify to any statement that the defendant made that could help the defendant, it would be objected to, considered hearsay

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Quoting DeputyDog

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It's not his first offense. It's the first time he got caught.

Money is tight for most people these days; When I order a pizza, I expect to pay the amount that I'm signing for, not to have the delivery guy add the tip he feels justified in getting to it.

This IS theft, pure and simple, and as you noted, it involves a credit card, which would make it a felony.

You want some advice? What I hear from the tone of your post is that this "isn't such a big deal," and what he did "isn't that bad." Whether this is just you feeling this way, or you and he both feel that way, I can tell you this much: the prosecutor and certainly the judge don't want to see that attitude; it's called having no remorse, and trying to justify one's actions.

This IS a big deal. It is THEFT, and the worst kind of theft: from individuals who need their money to pay their own bills, send their own kids to preschool, and put gas in their cars so that THEY can get to work and make an HONEST living.

As for consequences, I don't live in Utah and I don't know the courts there, so I can't help with that. He will have a criminal record; that is about the only thing that is certain.

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Quoting CourtClerk

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Your attitude that this isn't a big deal is disgusting. I'm almost sure that if you were on the receiving end of such theft, you wouldn't be so blase'. $3 or $300, it wasn't his money to take. I don't see why this wouldn't be embezzlement either.

I'd also suspect that your husband's job prospects are going to become very slim, especially anything that involves a position of trust.

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Where in my post do I say it is NOT a big deal? This is a FREAKING BIG DEAL. And for him to think that adding $1-3 tip just because is INSANE and SELFISH. That is why I'm so distraught about this.

He has a second appointment with a psychiatrist that (a month or so before the police came) suspects he is bipolar. The more I read about bipolar, the more I see that that diagnosis would explain a bit of the whys (NOT AN EXCUSE though).

I can't believe that somehow my post was taken in a way that I think it is no big deal. I don't even know what to think. I don't know anyone else that has done this. I don't associate with people that commit crimes (whether caught or not). But, now my own husband has done this. It's sickening. I made an emergency appt with my therapist because I know how much of a big deal this is. This is WRONG, and definitely criminal.

Marian

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I realize now that by using the word "impulsively" I sound like I'm not taking this seriously. Or that I think it is no big deal. That is entirely wrong. This is a huge deal. This has affected the person(s) he stole from, the place of business he did this with, himself, and our family of four children... along with all that goes with the charge(s) and costs of the consequences of outright stealing.

I honestly don't know what to do "with him." So much of me loves him of course, but for him to do this just makes me feel like it is not going to end well. Where are his priorities? That is another reason why I'm wondering what the possible consequences and outcomes could be, and how to ride them out the most wise way possible.

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Quoting tonynewman

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I bet it was a debt card, and that 3 bucks caused an overdraft charge/alert,, that's how the victim found out so soon, those overdraft charges are around 25bucks too

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I told my husband the same thing when I found out. It probably screwed up the customer's bank account. All for $3 that my husband wanted as a tip. It doesn't make an ounce of sense.

whats really bad for your husband was the statement he made to the police about having done this 5 or 6 times, even though this is the first time he was caught, that statement is so damaging to his case, the judge will likely make an example out of him, as for the penalties I would guess anything from a fine, to prison if it goes badly, what he needs is a very good lawyer at once.