Can a Parent Use Her Own Allergy to Cigarettes to Reduce Visitation

My question involves a child custody case from the State of: TN

My son's father recently started smoking, and does so around my son. When I asked him about it (because I don't get how someone would start smoking at 30 years old) he says it is stress... and that he struggles with depression since coming back from Cuba (Navy). I asked him about the smoking because my son started coming home from parenting time with his dad smelling like cigarettes. I am allergic to cigarettes.

As you all know, dad recently filed for custody, still has not made a motion for trial though, and is changing jobs again so I don't expect the trial any time soon.

I have two questions - Can I do anything about my son's father sending him home in a condition that I am allergic to him? And what impact can this have in court either for or against me?

Please note - I apologize if this offends any smokers. I am hyper-sensitive to second and third hand cigarette smoke. I can not hug my child after he's been with his father. I cannot bring my son's belongings into the house, including the clothes he is wearing... my son has to strip in the garage and head straight for the bath.... This is a significant problem for me, and unhealthy for my son, so any advice on what my rights are, or ways to handle it is appreciated.

Also, I am not unsympathetic to his issues... but he will never seek out help for a mental problems. I am not a doctor, but I am quite confident in declaring him a narcissist. Admitting his flaws and mistakes won't happen. I also don't see him ever quitting smoking.

I have to be honest - when you look at your other threads, it's starting to look like you're trying to find anything, anything at all, to thwart Dad's access.

I don't want to thwart his access... custody (decision making) yes.

I know you are only hearing one side of the story, and it's natural to assume that one side is heavily biased... but I have actually been trying very hard to be fair to my ex in spite of his and his mother's continual undermining. As I've said before I have never ever denied him access. Not one time has my ex asked to have my son and been told no. His access is at his own discretion. I have by any reasonable standard gone above and beyond to encourage parenting time for my son's father. My proposed parenting agreement is even more time with dad than the current status quo...

Our custody fight is about decision making, not time. But that does not change that we are probably going to have to argue parental merit - and a parents mental health and ability to provide for the physical health of a child are factors.

Also, just a side note, I hope you don't mind me throwing in... I treat my son's father much nicer than my feelings justify. I help him when he's struggling... I have on occasion bought him food, taxied him around when his car was down, helped him get a job (a couple times on that one) and various other things that he neither deserved nor appreciated. I am no saint, but I am not a nasty b!tch for a baby-mama either. :)

Let me ask in a different way.

Dad smokes and you're sensitive to the smoke. What do you want the court to do?

I am not really sure. A mental health evaluation would be nice. :)

I don't really know how to approach this. What would one's rights be if one parent has a severe allergy to... nuts for example... and the other parent slathered peanut butter all over the kid before sending him home? It's not quite as severe as that for me. It's not life threatening, but if I were unable to escape the exposure it would make me sick.

Of course, that's talking about me... there is also the part of this that is compromising my son's health as well.

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Quoting Mom521

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I am not really sure. A mental health evaluation would be nice. :)

I don't really know how to approach this. What would one's rights be if one parent has a severe allergy to... nuts for example... and the other parent slathered peanut butter all over the kid before sending him home? It's not quite as severe as that for me. It's not life threatening, but if I were unable to escape the exposure it would make me sick.

Of course, that's talking about me... there is also the part of this that is compromising my son's health as well.

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To be honest mom, I wouldn't mention your allergy to smoke at all in any court hearing, as it will come across as self serving. You can mention that dad has recently taken up smoking and ask the courts to order that dad not smoke around the child, but I wouldn't go any further than that...and I particularly would not use it to try to reduce visitation. (which is what the title of your thread states).

You already have a battle to fight over the home schooling, although the fact that dad is not pushing that case forward tends to favor you some, and that is not particularly in your favor. You don't need to be throwing things in the mix that will make you look self serving.

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Quoting Mom521

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I am not really sure. A mental health evaluation would be nice. :)

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I'll assume you're kidding.

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I don't really know how to approach this. What would one's rights be if one parent has a severe allergy to... nuts for example... and the other parent slathered peanut butter all over the kid before sending him home? It's not quite as severe as that for me. It's not life threatening, but if I were unable to escape the exposure it would make me sick.

Of course, that's talking about me... there is also the part of this that is compromising my son's health as well.

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And until and unless you actually have proof that the child's health is suffering, you have nothing. But can I tell you what happened a couple of years ago in my state?

Dad had temporary orders naming him CP and claimed that the child came home stinking of cat urine .... to which Dad was allergic. He was advised several times to forget using that as a means to restrict Mom - he was categorically and clearly told that it really wasn't going to accomplish what he wanted.

But the commissioner solved the problem very quickly.

I'm sure you can guess how.

Pick your battles. Stop trying to find things to paint Dad dirty.

Why don't you make your child strip in the garage, hose him and his clothes down to decontaminate them, then wash the clothes and send him to the showers.

Someone starting to smoke a legal substance.....that's not enough to have a mental health eval ordered.

You're comparison to peanut butter allergy....um...that could get a mental health eval ordered for YOU. No pun intended, but the comparison is...nuts.

And when your son comes home and has to strip in the garage and head straight for the bath....I'm sure you are emotionally damaging him, as you are punishing your child for your ex's smoking. You're telling your kid "you stink, and I can't stand to be around you until you are clean". There are things called allergy pills that are over the counter. I am not unsympathetic, as I have allergies myself. For two years I've lived in a home with 5 cats, a dog, and a chain smoker, and I'm allergic and have yet to drop dead.

Actually, my wife complains every time I go to a friends where all are chain smokers. I have learned on the rare occasions I am up to visiting, I better also be up to showering when I get home. Did I mention I can only handle visiting once or twice a year?

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A mental health evaluation would be nice.

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Surely you mean for yourself, because you'd have to be daft to demand that Dad have one merely for smoking a completely legal substance.

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It's not life threatening, but if I were unable to escape the exposure it would make me sick.

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You don't have access to a shower, soap, and a washing machine? Kiddo jumps in the shower for a scrub, you throw his clothes in the washer. Common sense! "OK, Timmy, get your butt into the shower and give me your stinky clothes!" Don't make him strip in the garage, that's just you being unreasonable.

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there is also the part of this that is compromising my son's health as well.

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...except that you're here whining first about YOUR allergies. No, you're not going to get what you want, even if you try to couch it in terms of "but think of the children!". Dad is not doing anything illegal, immoral, or immediately dangerous. YOU, on the other hand, are acting the fool and over-reacting.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Stop trying to find things to paint Dad dirty.

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It's funny you should say that because that is exactly what Dad is doing.

My son knows that he smells, but he doesn't have the same reaction I do to it. He hates it though.

Allergy pills don't work because it's not technically an allergy in that the reaction is a histamine reaction. There is no known treatment. I know this because I've been to ENTA doctors about it trying to document the relevant health issues to try to prove a ADA condition requiring accommodation to allow me to have an air purifier in my office. I had an otherwise great job that would have worked out well EXCEPT that all the smokers were allowed to smoke right outside the door and next to the air system, so the pollution was being pumped right into the building. Ended up having to quit the job.

I made the comment about the mental health eval because I consider starting to smoke at 30 years old knowingly self destructive... and because he said he can't handle the stress and depression that he is still dealing with from his time in the military and his divorce which was shortly after (he married the girl he had been dating for a couple months right before he left for deployment and they divorced right after he came back) but all this was years ago now.


This whole thing is really hard on me as you know. I'm trying my best not to freak out, but my son is being told things like I'm hurting him by homeschooling him, and that I'm a bad mom and a bad teacher and that I don't take good care of him. His dad tells him he shouldn't have to go to bed on time and lets him stay up until whenever he wants and brings him home in the evening after feeding him a bunch of sugary and caffeinated junk foods. He's being allowed to play video games about a mom trying to kill her little boy because God told her to. They've made complaints to DCS, convinced members of the church that I should be pitied and not respected, and even tried to teach my son that he has the wrong last name (he has my name) - and that is just a few examples of the playing dirty that I'm talking about.
They are playing dirty, and manipulating my son against me, and though they will lose in a fair fight, I don't have the money or power to ensure I get a fair fight or a fight at all right now, and if there is anything I can use to my advantage to make this stop I will - in our out of court. Maybe I haven't laid all this agony out for you clearly enough for you to understand why I have to keep looking for ANYTHING I can...

It sounds like perhaps there is some growing up to do on both sides. You need to learn how to co-parent. That means give and take, not that everything you disagree with is wrong.

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Quoting Mom521

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My son's father recently started smoking, and does so around my son.

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If in fact your husband never touched a cigarette until the age of thirty and recently started smoking, that would be unusual. Most people who get past their teen years without smoking never pick up a cigarette. When it comes to smoking, there is a spectrum from an occasional cigarette to chain smoking. It's not clear where on that spectrum your husband lies -- but as you've been told, smoking is legal conduct that is not, of itself, going to be of particular interest to a court.

If the scope of your concerns about the father's mental health is that he smokes, and that he is under stress and perhaps minor depression, that doesn't get you very far in terms of trying to get a mental health examination; but as dad has petitioned to modify custody you could consider petitioning for a psychological evaluation of the family -- if the court approves it, a professional can be appointed to interview you and your husband, and possibly the child, and possibly to perform some psychological testing, but be prepared to pay at least half of the cost. If dad went from being a non-smoker to being a chain smoker, that could indicate a mental health problem (e.g., bipolar disorder) but it could also indicate the more common cause of chain-smoking, addiction to nicotine.

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Quoting Mom521

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I am hyper-sensitive to second and third hand cigarette smoke.

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If in fact this is hyper-sensitivity, with your reacting to a level of smoke that most people would dismiss, your reaction is much more likely to cause scrutiny of you than it is of your ex-.

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Quoting Mom521

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Allergy pills don't work because it's not technically an allergy in that the reaction is a histamine reaction.

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When the body is exposed to an irritant and responds by releasing histamine, that is an allergic reaction. You should note that the most common allergy medications (including Allegra, Zyrtec, Claritin, Benadryl....) are classified as antihistamines -- medications that inhibit the activity of histamine. If OTC antihistamines are not sufficient for you, consider asking your doctor for a prescription antihistamine.

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Quoting Mom521

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...but my son is being told things like I'm hurting him by homeschooling him, and that I'm a bad mom and a bad teacher and that I don't take good care of him.

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Your ex- is, of course, entitled to his opinion -- but if he's sharing negative opinions with the child you can consider petitioning the court to add an anti-disparagement clause to your custody order as part of the present litigation. Note that whatever you are saying to the child about the father's smoking is likely to come up in the context of any such petition.

We cannot comment on the quality of home schooling. If you're using a professional curriculum, your child is performing at or above grade level, the child has taken independently administered standardized tests that confirm that is academic performance is not suffering, and there's no other cause for concern (e.g., lack of socialization), it should be easy enough for you to address any concerns about schooling that dad raises in court.
[QUOTE=Mom521]His dad tells him he shouldn't have to go to bed on time and lets him stay up until whenever he wants and brings him home in the evening after feeding him a bunch of sugary and caffeinated junk foods.[/qutoe]
Parents are allowed to set bedtimes for their children. If the child is getting to school on time and is not falling asleep during school, it's the sort of difference in parenting style that divorced parents have to learn to live with. The same is true of food choices -- you may disapprove of the food dad serves, but unless the child is being harmed in a medically relevant manner (e.g., the child has special, medically prescribed dietary needs that are not being respected) that's simply a matter of parenting style.

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Quoting Mom521

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He's being allowed to play video games about a mom trying to kill her little boy because God told her to.

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What is the name of that video game?

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Quoting Mom521

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They've made complaints to DCS....

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Who is "they"?

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Quoting Mom521

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...convinced members of the church that I should be pitied and not respected...

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What church, and why would members of the church believe them?

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Quoting Mom521

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...and even tried to teach my son that he has the wrong last name (he has my name)...

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If dad wants to petition to change the child's name, it's something he can attempt in court.

It's not clear to me what you hope to accomplish -- exactly what is it that you're asking the court to do? Exactly what relief is dad seeking from the court?

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Quoting Mom521

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It's funny you should say that because that is exactly what Dad is doing.

My son knows that he smells, but he doesn't have the same reaction I do to it. He hates it though.

Allergy pills don't work because it's not technically an allergy in that the reaction is a histamine reaction. There is no known treatment. I know this because I've been to ENTA doctors about it trying to document the relevant health issues to try to prove a ADA condition requiring accommodation to allow me to have an air purifier in my office. I had an otherwise great job that would have worked out well EXCEPT that all the smokers were allowed to smoke right outside the door and next to the air system, so the pollution was being pumped right into the building. Ended up having to quit the job.

I made the comment about the mental health eval because I consider starting to smoke at 30 years old knowingly self destructive... and because he said he can't handle the stress and depression that he is still dealing with from his time in the military and his divorce which was shortly after (he married the girl he had been dating for a couple months right before he left for deployment and they divorced right after he came back) but all this was years ago now.


This whole thing is really hard on me as you know. I'm trying my best not to freak out, but my son is being told things like I'm hurting him by homeschooling him, and that I'm a bad mom and a bad teacher and that I don't take good care of him. His dad tells him he shouldn't have to go to bed on time and lets him stay up until whenever he wants and brings him home in the evening after feeding him a bunch of sugary and caffeinated junk foods. He's being allowed to play video games about a mom trying to kill her little boy because God told her to.

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Have you mentioned this before, even on a different forum? The video game. I've seen virtually the exact same wording somewhere else. Do you know if Dad has started asking questions online?

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They've made complaints to DCS, convinced members of the church that I should be pitied and not respected, and even tried to teach my son that he has the wrong last name (he has my name) - and that is just a few examples of the playing dirty that I'm talking about.

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I understand. The worst that will happen is the court will roll its eyes and either change his last name or hyphenate it. That's the worst case scenario for you.

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They are playing dirty, and manipulating my son against me, and though they will lose in a fair fight, I don't have the money or power to ensure I get a fair fight or a fight at all right now, and if there is anything I can use to my advantage to make this stop I will - in our out of court. Maybe I haven't laid all this agony out for you clearly enough for you to understand why I have to keep looking for ANYTHING I can...

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The problem is, if you're the one who is coming across as trying to fling everything at the wall in the hopes something, anything, will stick, it looks bad on you. The court won't penalize Dad for an allergic reaction you have; and though it seems highly unlikely, it could actually turn the whole thing around and make you the visiting parent (two birds with one stone - Dad gets more time, and it reduces the chance of you being sick).

I know you're scared and upset but if ever there was a time where you had to bury those feelings, now is that time. If they're pulling out all the stops, it's imperative that you don't react the same way.

You want - no, need - to step back and approach this as objectively as you can. Yes, Dad and his family are threatening your status quo and that's painfully clear. The worst thing you can do is fall for it.

I'm going to add a bit more from a different thread:

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Another question: I want to introduce the VERY high crime rate in the area where his father lives if it is reasonable to do so in my petition. He lives in a rather small city, but the crime rate is extreme and there are two convicted sex offenders living within a quarter mile of him, and he's less than half a mile from a major drug area. I have already told him that I'm not comfortable coming into his neighborhood after dark to pick up my son so he'll either have to keep him until the next morning or take him to another location for me to pick him up. He responded like I was being ridiculous. There are at least two drug dealers on his street! SO, is it appropriate to address that with my petition and how would I go about doing that?

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This is why its looking like you're doing everything to thwart Dad. Even if that's not your intent, a bunch of strangers on the Internet appear to agree that it's not a good path for you to follow.

Dad is going to parent your child differently. Your parenting might be the absolute opposite of Dad's but it doesn't mean he's wrong. While it's my personal opinion that feeding the child 14 packs of Skittles while he's playing GTA isn't exactly the best parenting in the world, it's also not the worst.

Sorry, but some of the comments you've made seem totally out of whack. You quit a job because they wouldn't put in an air purifier? They cost less than 100$. You wanted ADA classification because you have a non-diagnosable "allergy" to the smell of cigarette smoke? You make your kid strip in the garage? You're pissed because dad wants his son to carry his last name? You want a psych eval on dad because he started smoking during a very stressful time in his life? You're upset because dad doesn't like the fact you're homeschooling?

You're grasping at straws, and quite frankly you're come across here as being more than a little unstable yourself.

Dad has some valid concerns and issues. Like Doggie said, it seems you're throwing everything out hoping something will stick and if you do that in court, you will NOT like the outcome.

Pick the battles that are worth fighting.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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What is the name of that video game?
Who is "they"?
What church, and why would members of the church believe them?

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The game is The Binding of Isaac
"They" is my son's father and paternal grandmother ( I thought her and I were friends, not so much apparently)
The church I went to for over a year with my son's grandparents, was in the choir... The grandparents have been going there for a very long time. My thoughts on why... grandparents have been "sharing" their prayer requests about me since way before I started going there... and I'm sure some of those "prayer requests" lended towards an ill opinion of me (from before I started going there.) I actually stopped going there because I was finding it very difficult to actually get connected with people. Hindsight, as they say....

And in case you're wondering, yes my son is thriving in the school environment we are in now. It isn't technically homeschooling either... it's virtual school through the public school system. He is enrolled in public school, with public school teachers and attendance requirements and all that. As far as standardized testing, he scores above grade level on everything. 3 grades above level on language arts, which is the main reason I pulled him out of traditional school.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Have you mentioned this before, even on a different forum? The video game. I've seen virtually the exact same wording somewhere else. Do you know if Dad has started asking questions online?

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Dad is quite consumed with video games. He rarely does anything else. I highly doubt he would be seeking legal advice online. However, I did mention it in my original thread when I first learned about it. I was quite furious.

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Quoting Mom521

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I. AM. INFURIATED!!
How freakin smart do you have to be to know that a game about your mom trying to kill you because God told her to is not appropriate for a SIX YEAR OLD CHILD??? I mean really? How the hell can my child be so brilliant with such a FATHER?? There must be some mistake.

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Quoting EA1070a

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Sorry, but some of the comments you've made seem totally out of whack. You quit a job because they wouldn't put in an air purifier? You want a psych eval on dad because he started smoking during a very stressful time in his life? You're upset because dad doesn't like the fact you're homeschooling?

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I quit a job because I was constantly sick (bronchitis/pneumonia/sinus infections overlapping over a 3 month period.. not a single day of wellness after about a week in that environment) and could not rectify the problem. I wanted to clean the fabrics in my office to neutralize some of the third hand smoke and bring in my OWN air purifier, was not allowed due to company policy - unless I was classified through ADA and could request an accommodation. Had to quit.

Dad started smoking about 6 months ago. I don't know how heavily he smokes, but that's a long time for a habit to form... He is stressed (according to him) over things that are several years past... Perhaps he has PTSD, I don't know.

I could not care less about him liking me homeschooling my son. He's never been involved in my son's education at all... never been to a parent-teacher conference, never asked about school before, nothing. He's interested now and expressed his dissatisfaction after I had a fight with his mom, who has been against homeschooling from the beginning. His not liking it really isn't a big deal to me. He and I have actually never even had a conversation about it except for him to tell me he doesn't like it. I reacted with an open door to talk about it and what his concerns are, but he doesn't want to talk to me, he just files a petition.... Otherwise it would not my problem... except that is the central issue in his petition which I will have to fight in court, and will probably be more costly than I can manage without working more, making me unable to homeschool... Grr!

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I made the comment about the mental health eval because I consider starting to smoke at 30 years old knowingly self destructive

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I'd be interested in knowing where you obtained your medical training. I didn't start smoking until I was 40. And cigars, at that! Turns out, nicotine buzz feels nice. Mind, I only smoke the occasional cigar, so addiction isn't a thing with me, but I'd lay folding money on your ex being addicted to nicotine. It happens rather quickly.

That doesn't mean he's a mental case. It just means he took up a soothing habit late in life, and the 100% legal substance is now something that he physiologically NEEDS. Maybe suggest he switch to vaping - he'll still get his nic fix, but without the carcinogens or smell.

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The game is The Binding of Isaac

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So...let me ask you something. Do you take your child to church at all? Self-identify as a "bible believer" or whatever it is the churched call themselves these days? Read your child bible stories? Talk to him about "god"? Talk to him about "faith"? Talked about the difference between "heaven" and "hell"?

See, The Binding of Isaac is pretty much a straight up re-telling of the story of Abraham and Isaac, found in Genesis 22:1-19. The difference is merely one of presentation. It's Isaac's Mom instead of his Dad who is all set to tie him up and murder him because "god said so". And instead of "god" stepping in at the dead last minute and saying "Hold up! I didn't mean it! It was a psychological experiment to test your loyalty to me!", Isaac himself says "Oh, HELL NO!" and splits. He'd rather fight the monsters in his basement than stick around and let his clearly insane mother murder him.

(Isaac in the game, by the way, eventually liberates his mother's heart from the evil compelling her to try to murder her own child and goes on to whup Satan's ass. I'm not entirely convinced I'd let a 6 year-old play it unsupervised unless he were remarkably smart, well-adjusted, and firmly grasping the difference between fantasy stories and actual reality, but my youngest son beat Final Fantasy VII when he was 4, so what do I know? Ernie is brilliant, your son might not be.)

Why is it OK for your child to hear this story at church, but not OK for him to get it with a gender swap and a very clear message that you've got to be out of your mind to want to kill your own child? What's the difference between "god" saving a child from murder at the hands of his own parent, and the child standing up and doing it himself? Frankly, I think taking children to church and indoctrinating them into a religion before they possess sufficient critical thinking skills to make their own decisions about spirituality, religion, and the supernatural is child abuse. But, like cigars and video games, it's legal. So.

Stop. Just stop. You're grasping at the memory of straws that used to be, and they're no more than shadows of the wisps of smoke left when they evaporated. Keep up with this, and the judge is going to say some things to you that you will not want to hear, and enter some things into the record that you will not appreciate. You are NOT going to get what you want, and the harder you throw nonsense at the judge, the harder it's going to backfire.

Quick question, and you may have already addressed it in this thread or elsewhere: do you and dad share joint legal custody?

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Quoting EA1070a

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Quick question, and you may have already addressed it in this thread or elsewhere: do you and dad share joint legal custody?

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No. I have full legal and physical custody. We were never married. The most recent order that addresses parenting time from January 2009 says:
"The parties will work together to facilitate an appropriate parenting schedule between the father and the minor child. If the parties cannot agree, either party may file a motion with the Court to set a specific parenting schedule."

So, once again, exactly what is it that you're asking the court to do?

Exactly what relief is dad seeking from the court?

The court is never going to order your husband to stop smoking. He's engaging in a legal activity.

If you ask my husband's ex wife, she'll also say he never asks about school. That's because he calls the school directly. He has no reason to ask HER about school, nor discuss school with her. It was YEARS before and through a completely benign conversation about something else that it slipped that he was overly involved in their child's schooling. She then was shocked to find that he had established his own online account, ordered his own school pictures (actually I don't think she still knows we order school pictures, she probably just thinks we don't give a damn because we don't ask for pictures), knows that he's excelling in X, while struggling in Y. He in turn has conversations with his child.

Other than that, I think you sound a little wacky.

My original question:

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Quoting Mom521

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Can I do anything about my son's father sending him home in a condition that I am allergic to him? And what impact can this have in court either for or against me?....any advice on what my rights are, or ways to handle it is appreciated.

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I think it has been answered... I can do nothing in court and if I try I could potentially sabotage myself.

Dad is seeking 50/50 and joint decision making on everything. However, the schedule he is asking for would actually result in LESS time that he would spend with my son than he has now... which is very easily provable because he has a job and is in school - I would actually agree to his parenting schedule IF we included a ROFR for ANY time that he cannot keep him AND if I can still homeschool, but I would not agree to joint decision making because we would just end up back in court, and I can see him taking that as authority to enroll him in traditional school if he feels like it - against my wishes.

Really, we haven't had much trouble through the course of my son's life in working together on parenting time, but that's because he didn't really want much until recently (maybe 2 days a month) and now that he is spending more time with him, he asked for a specific schedule and we've worked together on facilitating that schedule. He gets him around noon on Friday and keeps him until bedtime on Saturday, sometimes until first thing Sunday morning. Plus any off-school time he has the option. Since I work a lot during most holidays, he had him for Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Christmas, New Years Eve... plus a few extra days in the Christmas break time and it's like that most years, except that my son was with grandma a lot more than dad in previous years.

When it comes to any other decision making or co-parenting - there has been none. He moved out while I was still pregnant and didn't really spend much time with our son until recently. I have continually been open to his thoughts and kept him up to date on everything... he knew I was planning on homeschooling years ago and didn't say anything about it. When I've asked him for input on extra-curricular activities his response was "I don't care, but I won't help pay for anything." He had been invited to every parent-teacher conference and never showed up when my son was in traditional local school. He's never come to any of my son's performances, karate classes, belt tests, or any of that... he did show up to kindergarten graduation. He has paid child support most of the time, but he is a couple months behind right now, but really, if he could avoid talking to me about anything, he would. The lack of co-parenting is on him. His petition says that I won't let him be involved, that I'm "severely neglecting" our son and that he has tried to co-parent with me.. lol. Right. But according to him, he had to leave me when I was pregnant because he was afraid for his life, I tricked him into getting me pregnant, and all sorts of other outrageous claims. He lies a lot, that's part of what destroyed our relationship way back in the day. So, you can understand that I expect quite a lot of mud throwing in court. I can only hope I have the documentation (I have been keeping notes, emails, texts, and chats for several months) and school records to show that my son struggled in kindergarten and is thriving now. I have all his test scores and report cards, but my son's grandma has all his daily papers/worksheets because she picked him up from school often and keeps all that stuff forever.

I do have a question about the homeschool issue, which I think has been kind of answered already. I can very easily and clearly show my son thriving academically now, but what kinds of things will I need to show thriving socially? Just a miscellaneous question, but if there is something I should be gathering now I would appreciate knowing that. Should I think about trying to arrange any psychological evaluations or professional interviews of my son?

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Wow, wrote a book. Forgot to draw pictures. lol.

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Quoting CourtClerk

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The court is never going to order your husband to stop smoking. He's engaging in a legal activity.

If you ask my husband's ex wife, she'll also say he never asks about school. That's because he calls the school directly. He has no reason to ask HER about school, nor discuss school with her. It was YEARS before and through a completely benign conversation about something else that it slipped that he was overly involved in their child's schooling. She then was shocked to find that he had established his own online account, ordered his own school pictures (actually I don't think she still knows we order school pictures, she probably just thinks we don't give a damn because we don't ask for pictures), knows that he's excelling in X, while struggling in Y. He in turn has conversations with his child.

Other than that, I think you sound a little wacky.

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I am a little wacky sometimes. :)

My son's father does none of that. He probably couldn't tell you the name of my son's school, and he's never asked me for any contact info for anyone. His petition repeatedly alleges that my son isn't attending school at all. My son came home from dad time a few times this school year and told me about dad's reaction to him talking about school... it's not pretty. But I confronted him on that directly, and it's better now.

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Quoting Mom521

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When I've asked him for input on extra-curricular activities his response was "I don't care, but I won't help pay for anything."

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There's your input. Do what you want because he's not paying for it. Sounds like he gave you a response, you just didn't like the response.

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if he could avoid talking to me about anything, he would.

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I'm beginning to think that's a wise decision on his part. Sometimes, that is the best solution.

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But according to him, he had to leave me when I was pregnant because he was afraid for his life, I tricked him into getting me pregnant, and all sorts of other outrageous claims.

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None of that makes any difference about anything that is going on today

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He lies a lot, that's part of what destroyed our relationship way back in the day.

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Who cares. You ultimately decided to make and have a baby with him anyway.

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So, you can understand that I expect quite a lot of mud throwing in court.

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I also understand that you basically wanted an order to stop him from smoking...

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he's never asked me for any contact info for anyone.

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They make Google for such things and I'm sure your son is able to answer the question "what school do you go to?"

What's your level of education and since at times you work a lot, how do you expect to home school this child?

How long was dad in the service, how far away was he, and was he deployed overseas? There are reasons we're all asking these types of questions. And was dad in the military and unable to attend court because of that?

TN courts favor joint legal custody. If he's now seeking that, absent some egregious behavior on dad's part, it will likely be awarded (although nobody can ever predict what a judge will actually do).

Your request for a psych eval for taking up smoking at what seems to have been a very stressful time in dad's life won't go anywhere, unless, as Mr. KIA stated, the court decides to order a FULL family psych eval and those are costly.

I'm still not sure what you want here. My husband's ex would have made the same type of complaints about my husband. She had no idea that we (yes, we - my husband and myself) were both involved in the progress his kids were making in school even though they lived about 2k miles away.

What you think you know you may not actually know. Sometimes it's easier for the NCP to obtain information through different channels if s/he cannot work with the CP.

As for ROFR, I personally think those are bad clauses and they run both ways. They also have a tendency to lead to more litigation down the road.

And again - what exactly is it you want here? Perhaps it would help us help you if you were to sit down, make a list, go through it a few times, and then post that list item by item.

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Quoting CourtClerk

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I also understand that you basically wanted an order to stop him from smoking... I'm sure your son is able to answer the question "what school do you go to?" What's your level of education and since at times you work a lot, how do you expect to home school this child?

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No, I never said that. Good job assuming you know what I want.
No, he can't. He can tell you the name of the curriculum we use or his teacher's name. Good job assuming, again.
I am almost finished with a B.A. in Psychology, minor in Child Development - two classes left (both elective,) but I won't be able to take them until the summer.
I work 3 days a week (usually about 32 hours) and we have school the other 4 days.

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Quoting EA1070a

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How long was dad in the service, how far away was he, and was he deployed overseas? There are reasons we're all asking these types of questions. And was dad in the military and unable to attend court because of that?

TN courts favor joint legal custody. If he's now seeking that, absent some egregious behavior on dad's part, it will likely be awarded (although nobody can ever predict what a judge will actually do).

Your request for a psych eval for taking up smoking at what seems to have been a very stressful time in dad's life won't go anywhere, unless, as Mr. KIA stated, the court decides to order a FULL family psych eval and those are costly.

I'm still not sure what you want here. My husband's ex would have made the same type of complaints about my husband. She had no idea that we (yes, we - my husband and myself) were both involved in the progress his kids were making in school even though they lived about 2k miles away.

What you think you know you may not actually know. Sometimes it's easier for the NCP to obtain information through different channels if s/he cannot work with the CP.

As for ROFR, I personally think those are bad clauses and they run both ways. They also have a tendency to lead to more litigation down the road.

And again - what exactly is it you want here? Perhaps it would help us help you if you were to sit down, make a list, go through it a few times, and then post that list item by item.

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OK. What I want:

1. Keep the same parenting schedule we have been doing (Friday-Saturday) but have it specifically laid out, missed time contingencies, ROFR (which will benefit dad probably 20+ days of parenting time each year,) holidays, ect. No confusion, nothing vague.
2. I maintain final decision making on everything, with a requirement that dad be consulted.
3. Non disparagement clause that reads "The mother and father will behave with each other and the child so as to provide a loving, stable, consistent, and nurturing relationship between the child and each other. They will protect the child from any influences that do not encourage said relationships. They will not speak badly of each other within the child’s influence, or allow others to do so. They will encourage the child to continue to love the other parent and be comfortable in both families." I wrote it that way instead of just copying the standard clause on the parenting schedule form for a reason.
4. Neither can introduce new video games without consent of other parent.

Those are some of the specifics. I also included terms in case of death or illness, specific guidelines about corporal punishment, online accounts, child support/taxes, insurance, and how to handle disagreements which requires parties to try to resolve issues with each other first.

Of course, I'm asking to be named primary parent, otherwise asking for recalculation of child support and calculation of arrears, court costs, ect...

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Dad was in the Navy when he was younger then re-enlisted as a Reserve when I got pregnant I think he signed up for 5 years. He was deployed for a year to Cuba. He missed appearance once but his lawyer was there, and we were able to continue because it was just to modify support based on his income being deployed. He left service early though, think he served 4 1/2 of the 5 years.

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Quoting Mom521

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4. Neither can introduce new video games without consent of other parent.

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I feel like this is a bit of a stretch. My husband (custodial parent with physical custody and joint legal) asked the judge to order mom to keep their son on his pediatrician recommended diet (the child is autistic and his stomach/attention issues seemed to be related to poor diet) during her parenting time. Judge said if it isn't life threatening, he wasn't going to get specific in telling a parent how to parent.

If you go into court with all of those demands, you will probably be read the riot act.

Honestly? You need an attorney in a big way.

I don't have anything in my parenting plan that is outrageous. The video games might be a little out there, but it can't hurt to ask.

The majority of it, except for the decision making and possibly the time, my ex will agree with... like that neither of us can terminate son's life support without the other's consent... the person receiving child support claims the tax deduction... additional parenting time must be provided to attend any major family gatherings, funerals, or visit in the hospital if anyone becomes sick (which can only benefit dad/dad's family because I have no other family) school attendance is mandatory, ect...

Is there anything that I'm "demanding" that you think is way out there? Or is it just that I have a detailed plan instead of a plain vague one?

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Having an attorney is probably not going to happen, at least not at the beginning... I was planning on trying to retain one with my tax return, but dad is changing jobs again, and he works low paying jobs so probably will not see child support again for a while and this is the slow season for my work as well. I actually think that's the stall with going to court.. If I had to guess I would say that either his lawyer won't move forward without being paid, or has advised him not to move forward until he's up to date on child support (he's about 3 months behind.) Either way, it's probably going to go up when we do go to court, retro to the petition date, so he's going to have some issues once that is done...

You need an attorney because you don't understand that, in reality, some of what you want is way out there. You want complete control - I mean, approving video games? You want all final decision making rights? If dad is requesting joint legal and you come across as being unwilling to work with him, you could find yourself on the losing end of things, including custody. Especially if he has a lawyer and you're going in pro se.

If that is evident to us, it's going to be crystal clear to a judge who deals with this stuff all day long. Boiling everything down, it translates as: my way or the highway. You don't see it that way.

And that is precisely WHY you need legal representation. You need someone who is going to rein you in, explain the legal realities to you, and who won't be emotional about this before the judge.

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Quoting Mom521

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I don't have anything in my parenting plan that is outrageous. The video games might be a little out there, but it can't hurt to ask.

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That request is outrageous, and yes, it can hurt you to ask. Would you like Dad to have the ability to tell you what you can and cannot watch while the child is present?

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The majority of it, except for the decision making and possibly the time, my ex will agree with... like that neither of us can terminate son's life support without the other's consent... the person receiving child support claims the tax deduction... additional parenting time must be provided to attend any major family gatherings, funerals, or visit in the hospital if anyone becomes sick (which can only benefit dad/dad's family because I have no other family) school attendance is mandatory, ect...

Is there anything that I'm "demanding" that you think is way out there? Or is it just that I have a detailed plan instead of a plain vague one?

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Having an attorney is probably not going to happen, at least not at the beginning... I was planning on trying to retain one with my tax return, but dad is changing jobs again, and he works low paying jobs so probably will not see child support again for a while and this is the slow season for my work as well. I actually think that's the stall with going to court.. If I had to guess I would say that either his lawyer won't move forward without being paid, or has advised him not to move forward until he's up to date on child support (he's about 3 months behind.) Either way, it's probably going to go up when we do go to court, retro to the petition date, so he's going to have some issues once that is done...

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I don't think you're seeing things for what they are.

You and Dad clearly have different parenting styles, but the court doesn't give a single flying ferret fart. They expect the parents to act like adults and they expect the adults to recognize that Dad's rules are applicable during his parenting time, and your rules during your parenting time.

You really don't see this, do you?

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This is what you're actually saying:

Alright, fine, he can have visitation but I'm going to have the final say-so in everything.

You're setting yourself up.

I was talking about the major decisions... education, medical care, things like that, and not because I don't care what he thinks, but because we aren't going to agree a lot, and he is very.. conflict avoidant. If we don't agree, he will clam up or file a petition, or yell at me.

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Quoting Mom521

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I was talking about the major decisions... education, medical care, things like that, and not because I don't care what he thinks, but because we aren't going to agree a lot, and he is very.. conflict avoidant. If we don't agree, he will clam up or file a petition, or yell at me.

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In dad's position I would react the same way. Please, retain an attorney. You've already said you don't care what he thinks about homeschooling, and you want to control every aspect of his child's life. You aren't willing to compromise. Do you know what typically happens when judge's see that? They give custody to the parent most likely to try to work with the other parent. Proceed with caution.

It is really hard to take some of the advice here seriously because so many of the responders make assumptions and interpret my words in the most negative way possible, and give dad the overwhelming benefit of the doubt!!

However I "seem" here on this forum, I am an excellent mother in a difficult situation who happened to have a baby with a narcissistic man-child, who happens to also be a mama's boy. It is what it is. I'm trying to make the best of it that I can. I have gone above and beyond over and over and over again to accommodate dad's ego and temper. In REAL life, I am the parent that is most likely to facilitate close and continuing with the other. I am the parent that makes decisions based on what's best for the kid instead of myself and I am the parent that tries to keep open communication with the other. Dad is the parent that is most likely to charm and lie his way into the favor of the court, use his mommy's money to intimidate, and use my SON to sabotage his own education.

How many times has someone asked what exactly is the point of your post? And you are upset that posters are making thier own interpretations?

As many have said, courts want parents to work together, and that is so ordered by giving joint custody. If that is what dad wants, then you must give compelling reason as to why he shouldn't be involved in these decisions, which you simply have not done. Saying you want to make the decisions, but you'll consult with dad i.e. you'll let him know what decision YOU are going to make regardless of his input, isn't going to make you look good to judge.

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Quoting wess1881

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How many times has someone asked what exactly is the point of your post? And you are upset that posters are making thier own interpretations?

As many have said, courts want parents to work together, and that is so ordered by giving joint custody. If that is what dad wants, then you must give compelling reason as to why he shouldn't be involved in these decisions, which you simply have not done. Saying you want to make the decisions, but you'll consult with dad i.e. you'll let him know what decision YOU are going to make regardless of his input, isn't going to make you look good to judge.

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This.

I'm telling you to retain a lawyer for a reason. Nobody is trying to gang up on you and we aren't interpreting anything. Just using your own words.

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Quoting wess1881

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How many times has someone asked what exactly is the point of your post? And you are upset that posters are making thier own interpretations?

As many have said, courts want parents to work together, and that is so ordered by giving joint custody. If that is what dad wants, then you must give compelling reason as to why he shouldn't be involved in these decisions, which you simply have not done. Saying you want to make the decisions, but you'll consult with dad i.e. you'll let him know what decision YOU are going to make regardless of his input, isn't going to make you look good to judge.

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I think I have compelling reasons... being able to prove those compelling reasons is another issue. The most important reason to me is his inability to make decisions based on what is best for our son, and not only think of himself, but that's a character issue, and one that I can't prove because the decisions he makes are during his parenting time...Otherwise, my reasons would be

1. His lack of intimacy with our son (he's only been spending time with him regularly since September of this year)
2. His inability or unwillingness to communicate with me about his ideas or things that happen that I should know about (I really only have emails that can show this, but I don't know if they would stand up well - lots of unanswered emails - a couple where we actually discuss his unwillingness to talk to me about school and what his concerns are, some where I ask him about strange things our son says or does after coming home, injuries he didn't tell me about, things like that)
3. Perhaps his struggle with depression and inability to cope with stress. I've been thinking about that lately.. in hindsight I can see that there have been times when he's been completely paralyzed from stress. We had a casual encounter about a year ago now I think, and he was so afraid that I might be pregnant again (because he can't afford another child) that he couldn't eat sleep or work in spite of my insistence that it was nearly impossible at that particular time. Freaked out for a full three weeks out of fear. Don't have proof of that either, but I do have a chat conversation where we talked about smoking and he mentions his depression...

By "consult" I don't mean that I will make all the decisions and tell dad what I decided... that is IN EFFECT what is happening now because when I tell him what I'm thinking and ask for his thoughts or ideas, I get nothing from him. I mean that I have my opinion and he will have his and if we don't agree, we can explore each other's ideas to make sure we understand the options (I can usually articulate my ideas and the reasons for them, where he usually just expects me to understand what he is thinking without explaining how he comes to a conclusion and if I ask him why, that's me being combative....)

Anyways, the reality is that I've been making all the decisions and doing all the hard work with our son since he was born and I've done a good job. I'm not perfect, but I really have an exceptional kid - polite, empathic, helpful, caring, loving, smart, funny, mostly obedient - and he is those things because I made it a priority in my life when I learned that I was pregnant to make sure I was prepared to raise a great kid and went to school to learn all about doing that. My ideas about how to raise him and educate him come from my education and experience with kids (A lot of it from when I was a young woman.) His come from, quite frankly, a place of ignorance about kids in general and this kid specifically.

It's like if you asked me what my favorite thing is to make out of bananas, and I said hamburgers... you probably wouldn't want me planning your diet. :)

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Quoting Mom521

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It is really hard to take some of the advice here seriously because so many of the responders make assumptions and interpret my words in the most negative way possible, and give dad the overwhelming benefit of the doubt!!

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Oh, it's not that. I believe you're annoyed as hell because we didn't tell you what you wanted to hear, and because you know deep down that we're right.

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However I "seem" here on this forum, I am an excellent mother in a difficult situation who happened to have a baby with a narcissistic man-child, who happens to also be a mama's boy. It is what it is. I'm trying to make the best of it that I can. I have gone above and beyond over and over and over again to accommodate dad's ego and temper. In REAL life, I am the parent that is most likely to facilitate close and continuing with the other. I am the parent that makes decisions based on what's best for the kid instead of myself and I am the parent that tries to keep open communication with the other. Dad is the parent that is most likely to charm and lie his way into the favor of the court, use his mommy's money to intimidate, and use my SON to sabotage his own education.

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You said this:

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Another question: I want to introduce the VERY high crime rate in the area where his father lives if it is reasonable to do so in my petition. He lives in a rather small city, but the crime rate is extreme and there are two convicted sex offenders living within a quarter mile of him, and he's less than half a mile from a major drug area. I have already told him that I'm not comfortable coming into his neighborhood after dark to pick up my son so he'll either have to keep him until the next morning or take him to another location for me to pick him up. He responded like I was being ridiculous. There are at least two drug dealers on his street! SO, is it appropriate to address that with my petition and how would I go about doing that?

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We told you that you're not going to get Dad's time reduced - and then you came back with...

He smokes.

Then we explained that his smoking isn't going to affect things either.

And then...

Video games. VIDEO GAMES?!

You're doing the exact opposite of facilitating the relationship between father and child. You can't see that? Seriously?

Neither of you are stellar examples of co-parenting and something has to give.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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You're doing the exact opposite of facilitating the relationship between father and child. You can't see that? Seriously?

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WOW!! I had no idea that posting my concerns anonymously on a legal advise forum had so much power over my parenting in REAL LIFE!!!!

Golly-gee, I must be an idiot!

Please, ignore all of the advice that you have received here. Go to court and ask for everything you stated you were seeking. Oh to be a fly to hear the judge's response.

Nobody has been rude here. Believe it or not, we're actually trying to help you. Take offense as you wish. You may not like the responses and you are free to flounce off. But nobody here has given you incorrect or improper advice.

Right now you are your own worst enemy.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Oh, it's not that. I believe you're annoyed as hell because we didn't tell you what you wanted to hear, and because you know deep down that we're right.



You said this:



We told you that you're not going to get Dad's time reduced - and then you came back with...

He smokes.

Then we explained that his smoking isn't going to affect things either.

And then...

Video games. VIDEO GAMES?!

You're doing the exact opposite of facilitating the relationship between father and child. You can't see that? Seriously?

Neither of you are stellar examples of co-parenting and something has to give.

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And I think we both have a pretty good idea about where this case is heading, and mom will NOT like the outcome if she goes into court and exhibits the same attitudes.