Taking Custody Back from Grandparents

My question involves a child custody case from the State of: VA

I have posted before. It's a complicated situation so if something isn't clear please ask.

TEXAS CPS removed three of my four children due to mental health concerns (myself) and a history of substance abuse (my husband)and placed them with their grandparents in VA. My husband and I agreed to give them custody and have TX close their CPS case, with the off-the-record agreement that we would move to VA, get on our feet and they would give us back custody. The case was officially closed in TX this summer and we four adults share joint legal custody, with the grandparents having physical custody.

Of course, we moved here, established ourselves, etc and now the grandparents (who are receiving nearly $2000/month in stipend and benefits for the three kids) do not want to give them back. They have violated the court order numerous times, denying visitation, prohibiting phone contact, making a scene and calling police when we come to the school/doctor appts to name a few. We have been in VA and stable for over a year, with plenty of proof that the issues TX claimed we had, are non-issues. I have had a psych eval done, am in therapy, my husband has clean random drug tests through work. We have added the kids to his health insurance, have never missed a visit in 14 months, are successfully parenting our 10 month old, are active in our religious community. The g'parents are vicious and spiteful and even their own friends have commented that their behavior makes no sense.

Two weeks ago during a visit there was a disagreement about vaccines. Hubby and I have a religious objection to certain vaccines and provided my parents with a religious exemption form so that our 4 yo could be enrolled in preschool. My father said that he didn't give a you know what about what we said and that would "stick her as much as I want" as soon as they left the visit, just to be spiteful. We withheld her at the end of the visit, a Saturday, (ONLY her, not our other two) and went to court first thing when the weekend was over. During the course of the weekend, she disclosed to us that she had been molested. She couldn't or wouldn't name who had done it but was very sure of *what* had been done. The Judge ordered her to return home but said that at any time if CPS felt the need to remove they would do so. A forensic interview confirmed that she had been touched inappropriately, but the details of "who" remain sketchy, so since she didn't name either g'parent as a perp, they didn't have grounds to remove her. A GAL has been appointed. The Judge scheduled a custody hearing for the 19th which is next Friday. Our attorney is no longer affordable to us so we are trying to prepare for court ourselves.

I went down to the court today and filed for custody of my other two (which we had intended to do anyway) and also filed 8 motions to show cause for the various infractions of the court order. And here is where I need help.

I have never sat through a real custody hearing. I am someone who likes to be prepared as possible. I'd like to know, pla by play, how it will go. Who usually speaks first? Will the g'parents be given a public defender? What type of evidence can I use? For example, I have recorded phone conversations where the grandparents call us names, belittle us in front of the children, refuse to give info that we have the right to (such as the day and time of a parent teacher conference, for example.) I have emails showing the same. I have photos of bruises and pinch marks on my children, and email proof that CPS did not investigate earlier, when we asked them to. Obviously I'm close to this case so I may not be objective. I need help weeding out what is important to the judge, and what looks petty or whiny.

I also am thinking of subpoenaing (is that a word?) witnesses who can testify to my parents' behavior. These people are friends of my parents who have accompanied them on visitation, or who babysit my children. Is this a good or bad idea? If I do bring in witnesses who are friends of mine, could they just be witnesses as to the character of my husband and I, vs the character of my parents? I'm specifically thinking of an incident where my mother physically assaulted my friend. Would this kind of testimony be helpful to us, or just as I said, look petty?

I have also been researching and reading up on case law. Would it be helpful to quote relevant cases that had our desired outcome, to the judge? To say something like, the law has a presumption in favor of the parents, if the parents are fit, which we are, and here is the proof? Also, I read about the tender years principle. Would that apply to us since the youngest child living with the grandparents is only 2.5 years old? Where does the sibling bond come into play? Our 10 month old adores her big brother and sisters, and they her. Does a young child's preference hold any weight? Our oldest is only 6.

I'm sure people will say, "well CPS took your kids away, you must be the bad guys." I assure you, we are not. I have been told countless times by caseworkers in Virginia that had this situation begun here, my children would have never spent a night away from home. No offense to the Texans on this board, but they grossly overreacted, fueled, as I later found out, by lies my mother told them. It is what it is, but I just say that to say my husband and I truly are the best we can be for our children.

Any help would be much appreciated!

You should retain a lawyer. The court will listen to testimony from both sides and the GAL and rule in the manner they feel is in the children's best interests.

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Quoting Disagreeable

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You should retain a lawyer. The court will listen to testimony from both sides and the GAL and rule in the manner they feel is in the children's best interests.

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Like I mentioned in the initial post, we did have a lawyer, but we can't afford him any longer, so I'm trying to do this myself. Thousands have already been spent on this case. Now whether he is just a crappy lawyer, who's to say? He blew through the entire retainer and without even making one court appearance. Anyway, we don't have the money for a new attorney with new retainer, and we don't have the funds to give our current lawyer the $2,500 he's asking for before continuing with the case, so we are on our own.

The fact that you're over your head, and aren't going to get the breadth and scope of assistance you need from an online forum, hasn't changed from your prior thread. Explore your eligibility for court-appointed counsel.

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Quoting monkeysinmybed

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Like I mentioned in the initial post, we did have a lawyer, but we can't afford him any longer, so I'm trying to do this myself. Thousands have already been spent on this case. Now whether he is just a crappy lawyer, who's to say? He blew through the entire retainer and without even making one court appearance. Anyway, we don't have the money for a new attorney with new retainer, and we don't have the funds to give our current lawyer the $2,500 he's asking for before continuing with the case, so we are on our own.

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One thing that I would suggest that you do, is take a day to sit in your particular judge's courtroom and observe the cases he hears that day. That will give you a lot of insight as to how things go in his courtroom, and what kinds of things he is interested in hearing or not hearing.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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The fact that you're over your head, and aren't going to get the breadth and scope of assistance you need from an online forum, hasn't changed from your prior thread. Explore your eligibility for court-appointed counsel.

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Look, I realize no one here can "fix" this for me. I realize that I am NOT a lawyer and will never make myslef into one in the course of a week or month or even year(s). I took the advice given and retained a lawyer. we can't afford him anymore. We make far too much for legal aid, and the courts will not appoint us a lawyer--I have already checked. So while I can appreciate your frustration, the advice and insight I can glean here, whether a little or a lot, is still better than nothing at all. I liken it to my piano students. They walk in and want to learn to play moonlight sonata on the first lesson. Well, I can't teach them moonlight sonata in one 30 minute lesson, but that doesn't mean they should give up and walk out. I CAN teach them to play twinkle twinkle, so I do. It's not what they were hoping for, but it's better than nothing at all. Make sense?

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Quoting llworking

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One thing that I would suggest that you do, is take a day to sit in your particular judge's courtroom and observe the cases he hears that day. That will give you a lot of insight as to how things go in his courtroom, and what kinds of things he is interested in hearing or not hearing.

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I think the courtrooms here are closed. :( Is there a way to look into a particular judge's past cases/rulings? Maybe that would be helpful.

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Quoting monkeysinmybed

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Look, I realize no one here can "fix" this for me. I realize that I am NOT a lawyer and will never make myslef into one in the course of a week or month or even year(s). I took the advice given and retained a lawyer. we can't afford him anymore. We make far too much for legal aid, and the courts will not appoint us a lawyer--I have already checked. So while I can appreciate your frustration, the advice and insight I can glean here, whether a little or a lot, is still better than nothing at all. I liken it to my piano students. They walk in and want to learn to play moonlight sonata on the first lesson. Well, I can't teach them moonlight sonata in one 30 minute lesson, but that doesn't mean they should give up and walk out. I CAN teach them to play twinkle twinkle, so I do. It's not what they were hoping for, but it's better than nothing at all. Make sense?

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I think the courtrooms here are closed. :( Is there a way to look into a particular judge's past cases/rulings? Maybe that would be helpful.

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No, they are not published.

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Quoting monkeysinmybed

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I have also been researching and reading up on case law. Would it be helpful to quote relevant cases that had our desired outcome, to the judge?
To say something like,the law has a presumption in favor of the parents, if the parents are fit, which we are, and here is the proof?

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While that is a correct INITIAL presumption, that presumption was rebutted when the grandparents were given custody. The legal presumption NOW is the last custody order was in the children s best interests and continues to be in their best interests.

As already stated by others here, YOU NEED AN ATTORNEY. Even with an attorney you are not guaranteed to get your children back. Without an attorney it is almost certain you will not get a change in custody.

By the time you walk out of your upcoming hearing you will have gained a better appreciation for the realities of trying to handle this type of case on your own.

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Quoting tex11

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While that is a correct INITIAL presumption, that presumption was rebutted when the grandparents were given custody. The legal presumption NOW is the last custody order was in the children s best interests and continues to be in their best interests.

As already stated by others here, YOU NEED AN ATTORNEY. Even with an attorney you are not guaranteed to get your children back. Without an attorney it is almost certain you will not get a change in custody.

By the time you walk out of your upcoming hearing you will have gained a better appreciation for the realities of trying to handle this type of case on your own.

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Ok I get that I need an attorney. I had one, I don't have one anymore, and I'm not getting another one unless someone here is offering their services pro bono. So can you please meet me where I'm at? I assure you, I have a full time job and a child to raise, and if I could afford to have an attorney do all the thinking for me so that I could focus on my job and family, I would. Believe me. The stress is enormous and I realize how difficult this will be.

Anyway, would it not be true that we still retain that presumption because the order in which we voluntarily agreed to give custody to the grandparents has expressly stated that the parent child relationship is to be established and maintained? If that's not true, then I realize the burden of proof is on us to show that there has been a material change in circumstances. Actually, that would be the case either way. If we have corrected the issues that caused the removal (and have documented proof) and we and the grandparents are on an equal playing field as far as fitness, would it be taken into consideration that the grandparents do NOT respect the court order and go out of their way to interfere with the parent child relationship that the court ordered to be maintained?

Yes, I know, I need a lawyer. Feel free to contribute to my gofundme account if you feel that strongly. Otherwise, just help me out and answer my questions so I can do the best I can.

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Quoting monkeysinmybed

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Feel free to contribute to my gofundme account if you feel that strongly..

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Well, go start one, then. I'm not kidding.

Look, you're taking a knife to a gunfight. You need to raise the money any way you can.

Good luck.

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Quoting monkeysinmybed

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Ok I get that I need an attorney. I had one, I don't have one anymore, and I'm not getting another one unless someone here is offering their services pro bono. So can you please meet me where I'm at? I assure you, I have a full time job and a child to raise, and if I could afford to have an attorney do all the thinking for me so that I could focus on my job and family, I would. Believe me. The stress is enormous and I realize how difficult this will be.

Anyway, would it not be true that we still retain that presumption because the order in which we voluntarily agreed to give custody to the grandparents has expressly stated that the parent child relationship is to be established and maintained? If that's not true, then I realize the burden of proof is on us to show that there has been a material change in circumstances. Actually, that would be the case either way. If we have corrected the issues that caused the removal (and have documented proof) and we and the grandparents are on an equal playing field as far as fitness, would it be taken into consideration that the grandparents do NOT respect the court order and go out of their way to interfere with the parent child relationship that the court ordered to be maintained?

Yes, I know, I need a lawyer. Feel free to contribute to my gofundme account if you feel that strongly. Otherwise, just help me out and answer my questions so I can do the best I can.

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There's a basic premise here that I don't think you're grasping.

You're not standing equal to the grandparents - no matter what was agreed "off the record", you are not equal. I'm not nearly as convinced as you appear to be that you've got enough to switch physical custody and you withholding one of the children probably hasn't helped either.

Photos of bruises prove nothing - except that someone had a camera and took a photo. Phone recordings - well, you better hope your judge is in the mood to consider them (as opposed to being more angry that you may be sabotaging the only consistency these children have had). Much - if not all - of what you're alleging amounts to very little and again you've got to remember that you are NOT standing equal before the court.

Nobody here can walk you hand by hand through what may or may not happen. No matter what is said here, it could turn out to be 100% different on the day of court.

Demanding that people help you is not working well for you, either.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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There's a basic premise here that I don't think you're grasping.

You're not standing equal to the grandparents - no matter what was agreed "off the record", you are not equal. I'm not nearly as convinced as you appear to be that you've got enough to switch physical custody and you withholding one of the children probably hasn't helped either.

Photos of bruises prove nothing - except that someone had a camera and took a photo. Phone recordings - well, you better hope your judge is in the mood to consider them (as opposed to being more angry that you may be sabotaging the only consistency these children have had). Much - if not all - of what you're alleging amounts to very little and again you've got to remember that you are NOT standing equal before the court.

Nobody here can walk you hand by hand through what may or may not happen. No matter what is said here, it could turn out to be 100% different on the day of court.

Demanding that people help you is not working well for you, either.

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Sabotaging their consistency? They lived with me for their entire lives up until CPS placed them with their grandparents. When they lived with me they were enrolled in school, my son had his multiple therapies several times a week, he played soccer, and my two girls went to Montessori school. All of their needs were met. I had zero support system because my husband was gone to rehab dealing with his addiction issues. I went from being primarily a stay at home mom who worked part time on the side, to a single parent and only breadwinner, with no help. The stress of the situation caused me to need a change in my depression medication. The doctor's reaction to my request for that change was so negative that I overreacted and said the wrong things, leading him to send me to a hospital, where as is Texas policy, they called CPS to do a welfare check. At no time were my kids harmed, left unattended, threatened with harm, abused or neglected. I realize that most people who have dealings with CPS will say that they didn't do anything wrong. I certainly made a mistake and I admit it. I should never, ever EVER have asked for mental health help at a low-income, inner city clinic where people are only numbers and the doctors are too overworked to really "hear" their patients. I would have been better off -- and my kids too- suffering in silence. We have private insurance now and if God forbid I ever have to go on Medicaid again I assure you I will not be getting medication or therapy through any state agency, ever again. Obviously we know my husband made mistakes and had a serious issue to deal with, which he did. My point is that my children's lives were not improved or enriched in any way by being sent to a foster home and then their grandparents. The grandparents get almost $2000 a month in benefits, but my son was nearly kicked out of public school because they refused to pay the very modest, affordable out of state tuition that they AGREED to pay when they accepted custody. At no point did they come to my husband and I who didn't find out til after the fact. We would gladly have paid it for them if lack of money was the issue. They just....didn't care. My son has Asperger's but they refuse to take him to therapies that could benefit him. These are the same people who were abusive to me my entire life (funnily enough, the therapy I've gotten since the kids were removed is what helped me to realize this) and then when I tried to talk to them about being raped and molested IN THEIR HOME, said, "you just misinterpreted what happened."
They aren't in this for the kids. It's all a game to my mother, and my father is too scared of her to do anything different. Believe me or don't.
I did in fact set up a gofundme months ago. But I was afraid to share it because people who knew my parents would see it and back then I was still trying to work things out amicably.
I haven't updated it in a while but if it's allowed I'll post my website here. www.ashash108.wix.com/angulo6

I won't keep asking for help here. I wish with all my heart that things were different. My husband works 6 days a week and makes decent money as an electrician but not enough for us to afford an attorney. Our current (former?) attorney advised us to withhold our daughter, and then didn't come to court that next morning. :/ If anyone knows of a GOOD lawyer in the Hampton Roads VA area that takes smaller payments, I'm all ears.

Truly, I'm not here to be demanding or rude. I just wanted some guidance. But thanks anyway.

I'm not actually doubting your word. We've seen child services overstep in every part of the country - tragically yours is not the only case where this may have happened.

You gotta sell, do whatever it takes, to get an attorney on board. Is there a local law school? Most have programs where students help you, and it's all overseen by a professor. Law library? Anything? Have you (and I know this is a pain in the derriere) tried using different search terms in Google?

Like... "Legal Help with CPS" or something? <--- not very subtle hint

Regent University has a clinic for low income clients.

http://www.regent.edu/acad/schlaw/academics/clinic.cfm

You can also try the Legal Aid society of Eastern VA. http://sites.lawhelp.org/Program/1647/

The income guidelines are usually pretty strict.

If they can't help you, ask them for a referral.

Again, good luck.