The Other Parent Won't Permit a Family Vacation With Our Teenaged Child

My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Minnesota

I have been divorced since 2002 and my son is now 16. I share joint legal and physical custody and we are both remarried. My ex and I are not able to have amicable conversations, and after a recent harassing phone conversation I informed him I will no longer engage in verbal communication, except in the case of an emergency. He may contact me via email or text when it pertains to our son.

Our son is responsible and mature, and while there is an order in place for visitation times, he has been given the opportunity to make his own choices of where to "stay the night." And has done so for the past year, at least. He has a job, is in school and has a healthy social life. His dad and I live in the same town also.

I have planned two family vacations, one of which is out of state, and emailed and text the dates to my son's dad. He responded with a rude email and text, and the next day sent a "nicer" email stating the dates won't work. We have another child and have planned our vacations for those times. While we of course want our whole family to go, our travel dates will not change. My son has told his dad he's going on the vacations and has taken the time off work to do so. My son also has asked his dad if there is a reason he can't go (are they going somewhere) and his dad has no answer for him... The other day, while at his dad's, my son told me there were papers scattered on the kitchen table about custody, "taking" a child without the other parents approval, the legal ramifications, and so on... My son has informed me of this, as well as other, in his own words, "lies" his dad is telling him about me.

My question is this, If we want to bring my son on our family vacation, can his dad take legal action?

If your vacation falls on any part of his custodial period, yes, he can take legal action. I'm not sure why you've empowered your 16 year old to think he has the ability to "tell" his dad he's going on vacation or think he has the ability to question his father when he says no, but if it were MY 16 year old, he'd be trying to remember that he's a child in the house and adults don't answer to children, children answer to adults.

Next time you plan family vacations, make sure to plan them for when you have custody of the child and he's available to be at dad's when you are ORDERED (not suggested) to have him there.

Thank you for your reply. While I now have an understanding of your personal opinion, I am looking for LEGAL information with examples and links of where to find such information.

Does your custody agreement require that Dad approve of any out of state travel?

Does any part of either vacation fall in Dad's custodial time?

If the answer to either question is yes, see CC's reply and you have your answer. You may look to your own custodial agreements for verification.

If the answer to both questions is no, please clarify.

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Quoting Paco01

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Thank you for your reply. While I now have an understanding of your personal opinion, I am looking for LEGAL information with examples and links of where to find such information.

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If you read hard enough.... the LEGAL information is right inside of the same response. Your court order is the only thing you need to look at.

There is no agreement requiring his dad to approve of out of state travel. The vacations do fall on his parenting time as he is supposed to see him on Mondays and Thursdays of each week.

Our son has been given the opportunity to make his own decisions of where to stay during the week and weekends, and he feels he shouldn't have to miss a family vacation simply because his dad says no, without reason. There have been innumerable instances when he has not followed the "schedule," and has been allowed to do so by both of us. There has been no issue with their family travel plans, the most recent of which was 3 weeks ago, and the majority of which was during my parenting time, as it was my son's best interest to participate. Not trying to sound like the "better person," just feel it should be fair and not hinder my son.

I would think that, if his dad decided to "take action," the courts would look to past incidences, our son's age and wants, and agree that our son is capable of making the decision to participate in family related functions.

Making an appointment with a lawyer will likely be my best decision to get clarity and peace of mind.

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Quoting Paco01

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My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Minnesota

I have been divorced since 2002 and my son is now 16. I share joint legal and physical custody and we are both remarried. My ex and I are not able to have amicable conversations, and after a recent harassing phone conversation I informed him I will no longer engage in verbal communication, except in the case of an emergency. He may contact me via email or text when it pertains to our son.

Our son is responsible and mature, and while there is an order in place for visitation times, he has been given the opportunity to make his own choices of where to "stay the night." And has done so for the past year, at least. He has a job, is in school and has a healthy social life. His dad and I live in the same town also.

I have planned two family vacations, one of which is out of state, and emailed and text the dates to my son's dad. He responded with a rude email and text, and the next day sent a "nicer" email stating the dates won't work. We have another child and have planned our vacations for those times. While we of course want our whole family to go, our travel dates will not change. My son has told his dad he's going on the vacations and has taken the time off work to do so. My son also has asked his dad if there is a reason he can't go (are they going somewhere) and his dad has no answer for him... The other day, while at his dad's, my son told me there were papers scattered on the kitchen table about custody, "taking" a child without the other parents approval, the legal ramifications, and so on... My son has informed me of this, as well as other, in his own words, "lies" his dad is telling him about me.

My question is this, If we want to bring my son on our family vacation, can his dad take legal action?

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I agree with the others that if any of your vacation time falls on dad's parenting days then yes, he can file for contempt for you disobeying the court orders. Whether or not the judge will actually hold you in contempt depends on the judge's overall feelings about the situation.

It is very standard for parents to have the ability to take part of the other parent's time for vacations...and I have seen more judges being annoyed at a parent who takes the other parent to court for taking a vacation. If this is the first and only time that dad has taken you to court for contempt, then the results are likely to be nothing more than a slap on the wrist or a small fine (assuming the judge agrees that you are in contempt).

I also agree with the others that its not a good idea to let the child decide where he sleeps. While that can be absolutely fine if two parents get along well and both are happy with that, it is a very dangerous thing to do when two parents do not get along at all.

Yes, this would be the first time we would go back to court since our divorce in 2002...

And, I should clarify- up until his harassing phone call, 2 days before their family vacation, we were "getting along," in a business, professional kind of way. Able to talk on the phone and discuss things pertaining to our son.

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Quoting Paco01

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Yes, this would be the first time we would go back to court since our divorce in 2002...

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That, combined with the fact that its expected that family vacations will be taken, makes any risk very minimal.

The legally correct answer is to simply not take your son on this trip. It's not the end of the world and not worth turning into a pissing contest. There is no nice way to say "sorry but your father is not allowing you to go on this trip...", because that is a fact your son already understands.

From a risk perspective it is unlikely there will be any legal repercussions of consequence. Since you have not been back to court in 10 years, is the father willing to retain an attorney at considerable expense and time to file a motion for contempt for what may be dubious and uncertain results? However, even if you only get a wrist slap, he may be entitled to have you pay his attorney fees for bringing the contempt motion, since even a wrist slap will make him the prevailing party on a contempt motion. And that may sting you a little harder than the wrist slap.

If he does not go to court, he may bide his time for an opportunity to take your son on a short "vacation" at a time that will be inconvenient for you and against your wishes.

The most sensible option is to adhere to the letter of the custody order. If the father is not allowing you to have Junior on his time, then the fathers wishes prevail. And from there the honorable and responsible thing to do as a parent is just drop it and leave it at that, and not try to get even by encouraging your son to be angry with his father over this.

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Quoting tex11

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The legally correct answer is to simply not take your son on this trip. It's not the end of the world and not worth turning into a pissing contest. There is no nice way to say "sorry but your father is not allowing you to go on this trip...", because that is a fact your son already understands.

From a risk perspective it is unlikely there will be any legal repercussions of consequence. Since you have not been back to court in 10 years, is the father willing to retain an attorney at considerable expense and time to file a motion for contempt for what may be dubious and uncertain results? However, even if you only get a wrist slap, he may be entitled to have you pay his attorney fees for bringing the contempt motion, since even a wrist slap will make him the prevailing party on a contempt motion. And that may sting you a little harder than the wrist slap.

If he does not go to court, he may bide his time for an opportunity to take your son on a short "vacation" at a time that will be inconvenient for you and against your wishes.

The most sensible option is to adhere to the letter of the custody order. If the father is not allowing you to have Junior on his time, then the fathers wishes prevail. And from there the honorable and responsible thing to do as a parent is just drop it and leave it at that, and not try to get even by encouraging your son to be angry with his father over this.

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I really do not agree with this advice. I think that following this advice would guarantee significant damage in the relationship between your son and his father for no reasonable reason. I also think that once dad cools down he will realize that himself.

However I do think that following the parenting schedule rather than allowing your son to decide where he sleeps at night would probably be wise. That is potentially a far more significant issue than vacation.

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Quoting llworking

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I really do not agree with this advice. I think that following this advice would guarantee significant damage in the relationship between your son and his father for no reasonable reason. I also think that once dad cools down he will realize that himself.

However I do think that following the parenting schedule rather than allowing your son to decide where he sleeps at night would probably be wise. That is potentially a far more significant issue than vacation.

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First you say you do "not agree" with my advice to accept the father's wishes and follow the Court Order, then turn right around and state that following the parenting schedule "would be wise".

And you argue that accepting the fathers wishes and following the court order "...would guarantee significant damage in the relationship between son and his father for no reasonable reason"

Are you or are you not advising the mother to disregard the father's wishes and violate the court order??

Or are you suggesting that if mother ignores the father's wishes he will come around and see the error of his way, and that everything will be cool? And that a mother encouraging her son to complicity agree to disregard his father's wishes and not return home when expected to is a good thing? This because the benefit gained from a short vacation will be less damaging than the inevitable fallout?

Given the feedback, maybe the bigger issue is allowing him to make the decision of where to stay... I (we) have felt that if one household has something "fun" going on and the other is just doing laundry, then he should be able to decide where he wants to be, and we were both ok with that. This "freedom" was not the norm up until maybe a couple years ago, but he's older now, and I just don't see the point of "forcing" him to stay home just because it's my night/day.

I see this issue with his dad and our family vacations as a way of him trying to have control. I have dealt with verbal and physical abuse from him in the past and also had an OFP against him. He's exhausting. Up until the day I told him I would no longer engage in verbal communication with him, there has never been a big issue when it comes to changing our son's schedule.

Even though my son can see the bigger picture of what's going on, I don't allow him to be disrespectful. His dad is creating a rift between them, not just with this, but with telling him "lies" about me. I don't think he realizes that we have a relationship that is very honest and we can talk about everything. My son even told me that just the other night his dad was upset he had to pick him up from a friends, they got into it, and his dad actually asked him if he would rather just live with me. Even though I would like nothing more, I let my son know his dad didn't mean that and was just mad...

But getting back to the issue, if we go to court over this, the fact that there has not been a problem with changing the schedule until I decided not to tolerate any more intimidation, I think would be in my favor. Also, why all of a sudden would I be in contempt of court, when I wasn't just 2 weeks ago when my son came home for 3 of the days he was "supposed" to be at his dad's? If he chose to wait and take a vacation that was "inconvenient" for me, it's unlikely that would happen. We have rearranged our schedule numerous times to accommodate. I would not tell my son he couldn't participate in a family vacation and would let him make that choice, even if we had plans...

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If I would be in contempt of court for not bringing my son to his dad's, on "his" day, would I not also be in contempt of court if I went on our vacations & didn't have him on "my" days? Am I only allowed to plan a vacation with his dad's approval and vice versa? Seems ridiculous that either one of us should have that control...

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Quoting Paco01

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Am I only allowed to plan a vacation with his dad's approval and vice versa? Seems ridiculous that either one of us should have that control...

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You are only allowed to impede on dad's time with dad's permission. Just like you don't want him "controlling" you, you can't do it to him either. As for why you weren't in contempt 2 weeks ago, dad didn't have a problem with it 2 weeks ago. This isn't a case of well.... you allowed it once, so I'm gonna do whatever the hell I wanna do forever and you get to be the meanie if you don't let me.

Deciding to let a child make decisions based on where things are going to be "fun" IN MY OPINION, is doing this child SUCH a disservice because guess what? IN LIFE, after he leaves his mommy's house (if he ever leaves his mommy's house) there will be a multitude of times where he's not going to be able to do or go somewhere fun. What your son sees as his dad's "lies" are probably just dad's version of the truth, just as this post is YOUR version of the truth. The real truth? It generally ALWAYS lies somewhere in the middle.

You're no victim here and dad is no villain. If nothing else, BOTH of you are wrong.

Your "tag line" says a lot about you, as well as do your posts. I don't find your replys to be anything more than un-cerebral, emotional rants by someone who's obviously been hurt & needs to make it known.

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Quoting Paco01

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Your "tag line" says a lot about you, as well as do your posts. I don't find your replys to be anything more than un-cerebral, emotional rants by someone who's obviously been hurt & needs to make it known.

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If you're going to say someone's words are un-cerebral, you probably want to make sure you spell "replies" correctly first.

Moving on.

For whatever reason, this teen has been allowed to rule the roost to at least some degree and none of us can change that. There are circumstances where I'd agree with Llw that putting the foot down could damage the relationship for a long time to come.

But in this instance, I'm with CC & Tex. Stick to the darned court order. If Junior is going to get pissy with Dad over this, he's going to get pissy at some point no matter what else happens because this is the situation the parents have created and they only have themselves to blame.

Allowing Junior to call the shots obviously hasn't worked too well (because I promise you, he doesn't respect you for it) and Dad may as well try to instill at least some semblance of respect for authority while he still has a shot.

Frankly, you both messed up.

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Quoting Paco01

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Your "tag line" says a lot about you, as well as do your posts. I don't find your replys to be anything more than un-cerebral, emotional rants by someone who's obviously been hurt & needs to make it known.

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Absolutely I am if that's what you want me to be.

BTW... my husband and I don't have this problem and my sons don't either. Sounds to me like you could learn something from me.