Children Not Removed from a Filthy Home

My question involves child abuse or neglect in the State of: Pennsylvania

I have been separated from my ex wife for about 2 years. When i left I was on a fixed income, and unsure of how i would provide a roof over my head and food for myself. I eventually got into a good place, and am now doing well. However, i have 2 children (14 and 11) that still live with their mother. The house they live in is disgustingly filthy and full of junk. CYS got involved 5 months ago, and as of yet have done NOTHING, and the house is worse now than ever (see pics). What can i do or who can i contact to get my kids out of that horrible situation? The children have both expressed to teachers, family, friends, and even the CYS workers that they want out of the house and to live with me, but the workers won't listen. Please help me.
(PICS)
http://imgur.com/a/PlrRe

If it really is still in that condition, I'm at a loss as to why they are still there. Is there any way that you can afford a family law attorney?

I suggest you either 1.File for custody or 2.Tell the kids they need to clean house.

I am trying to save money and find one I can afford, or possibly legal aid that can assist me. And those pictures are less than 24 hours old, sent to me via cell phone by my 14 year old son. I also would expect my children to clean up after themselves within reason, but obviously the mess in that house has very little to do with the children.

It also appears obvious they have no interest in trying to clean it.

I am not arguing with you on that point. But to be fair, when the kids do visit with me, they rarely have to be told to pick up their things. They are normally attentive to taking care of their laundry, dishes, etc. Of course there are times when I have to remind them now and again...they are kids, after all. I am not being argumentative or defending their part in not taking some form of initiative to clean, I am just stating a fact. And i also know that for ANYONE faced with the task of cleaning that place up it would be a daunting task. As an adult it would be a nightmare, as a teen or younger it is not any surprise they don't want to clean the mess up themselves. But that ignores the glaring fact that the ex and her mother (who owns the house they live in) have obviously not done anything for years to keep a decent home for the kids. The stove is covered with who knows what and has been for a good long time, so obviously meals are not getting cooked like they should be. And at the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the parent to provide a clean, safe, and healthy environment for their children. It does not fall on the children to take the role of the parent and do all the cleaning, cooking, etc.

If protective services has investigated and does not agree that the circumstances justify removal, then that's what they decided. You are free to try to speak with the case worker or a supervisor about their determination.

If you believe the children are better off with you, though, you should petition to modify custody and make your case in court.

Call your local TV station maybe? Here, there is a station that has a segment that assists the public when they reach dead ends. i would also call CPS back, everyday, if I had to. Call code enforcement, call anyone who will listen. I wouldn't let up either until those kids are out of there. Def file for full custody asap.

I just re-read...you aren't divorced yet? What is stopping you from going and getting the kids???

I dunno, some of those pictures seemed staged or photo shopped to me. Based on the fact that CYS got involved and haven't done anything leads me to believe that the OP should be very careful about waging a publicity style battle over this. It could lead to problem for him if the situation is not as the photos seem to indicate.

Good point LL. I wouldn't know a photoshop job if it was staring at me!

I've seen people who live just like that. It doesn't look photo shopped to me.

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Quoting mmmagique

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I've seen people who live just like that. It doesn't look photo shopped to me.

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I do too, but go look at the pics again. Some of them really do look staged/photo shopped to me.

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Quoting Alamar

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It does not fall on the children to take the role of the parent and do all the cleaning, cooking, etc.

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Actually yes, it sometimes does become necessary. Just one of those "real life sometimes sucks" things.

You are free to have your own opinion of course, but these photos are exactly as I recieved them from my 14-year old. I have not photo-shpped or staged anything. As far as just picking up the kids and going, I have no idea what legal issues or laws are in place as far as what I can or cannot do. I have never gone through anything like this before, so I am completely out of my depth as to what action/steps to take to move forward. The CYS worker told me I cannot take the kids without a judge allowing it because of the involvement of the CYA services, and i cannot file for custody until they close their investigation. It doen't sound right to me, but again, I am not a lawyer or familiar with family and child laws.

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Quoting llworking

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I do too, but go look at the pics again. Some of them really do look staged/photo shopped to me.

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What pictures are you questioning, I don't see anything in those that indicate to me they had been photo shopped. I suppose they could be staged, but I have a hard time believing that a 14 year old found that much crap somewhere, brought it into the house, and took pictures to send to Dad, if they wanted to fabricate a reason to get out of the house they could have come up with something involving less effort.

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Quoting Disagreeable

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It also appears obvious they have no interest in trying to clean it.

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Oh come on, there is clearly a bigger issue here then an 11 and 14 year old who don't want to clean. Saying that the kids should just clean it is absolutely foolish.

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Quoting Alamar

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You are free to have your own opinion of course, but these photos are exactly as I recieved them from my 14-year old. I have not photo-shpped or staged anything. As far as just picking up the kids and going, I have no idea what legal issues or laws are in place as far as what I can or cannot do. I have never gone through anything like this before, so I am completely out of my depth as to what action/steps to take to move forward. The CYS worker told me I cannot take the kids without a judge allowing it because of the involvement of the CYA services, and i cannot file for custody until they close their investigation. It doen't sound right to me, but again, I am not a lawyer or familiar with family and child laws.

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Not knowing what is going on with CYS we cannot tell you what you can and can't do either. You really need a lawyer who can review the specifics and advise you. If you can share what part of PA you are in (County or City) then we may be able to help you find resources to assist you.

Have you filed your motion for modification of custody yet?

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Quoting Alamar

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You are free to have your own opinion of course, but these photos are exactly as I recieved them from my 14-year old. I have not photo-shpped or staged anything. As far as just picking up the kids and going, I have no idea what legal issues or laws are in place as far as what I can or cannot do. I have never gone through anything like this before, so I am completely out of my depth as to what action/steps to take to move forward. The CYS worker told me I cannot take the kids without a judge allowing it because of the involvement of the CYA services, and i cannot file for custody until they close their investigation. It doen't sound right to me, but again, I am not a lawyer or familiar with family and child laws.

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I didn't think that you had photo shopped or staged them, but are you absolutely certain that your 14 year old did not?

There is an incredible gulf between "doing nothing" and "removing the kids" CYS very well may be taking steps they will not tell you what they are doing. Nothing in those photos jumped out as an imminent threat (feces, fire hazard, hard drugs, etc)

Filthy living conditions is not generally sufficient to justify the removal of children from a home. If it were, we'd have to get a lot more foster homes. The conditions need to pose an immediate risk of harm (disease or danger) not merely be cluttered to the rafters. Now, if we had rats attacking people, kids with flea bites, bedbugs, and lice - different issue. But, clutter alone is no more likely to bring about a removal than would living in a car.

And, as mentioned, CYS might very well have given mom some marching orders - and time to get something done. Maybe not. But, if they have already looked into the matter, then relying on them to take the children clearly is not going to work. YOU need to file for custody and, perhaps, cite their living conditions with mom as a reason to obtain custody. Of course, this presupposes that mom doesn't have some dirt she can throw back your way. If you live in a glass house, then be careful how you tread here.

It would be interesting to know what code enforcement office thinks too. While the inside of the home generally isn't their business, if yards in my county looked like that with crap everywhere, the fines would be accumulating by the day and they'd be getting regular visits from a code enforcement officer.

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Quoting aardvarc

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It would be interesting to know what code enforcement office thinks too. While the inside of the home generally isn't their business, if yards in my county looked like that with crap everywhere, the fines would be accumulating by the day and they'd be getting regular visits from a code enforcement officer.

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Yes, that can certainly be an issue. Maybe even Health Department, too ... depending on the details inside and out.

I was thinking that too....but I didn't see any food, indication of human or animal waste, roaches, or anything necessarily unsanitary. Just a lot of clutter. Therein lies the rub, eh?

I don't know. The whole place looks like a fire waiting to happen. i have had the ugly occasion when I had to open my home to CPS because I was caring for a child that was involved in an ugly child custody case, but regardless...they opened my fridge to take pix of the food, they opened my pantry to see i had food...they took pix of babys bedroom and bath room, where they slept, she even ran the hot water to ensure there was hot water also. In the final report we got, by subpoena, they mentioned the house was clean, there was plenty of food and home was free of issues but made a safety concern comment they recommend a fence in the backyard (there is water behind the house). I dont know about up there but down here i would bet money they would intervene in this situation. They appear to be pretty detailed around here.

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Quoting df04527

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I don't know. The whole place looks like a fire waiting to happen. i have had the ugly occasion when I had to open my home to CPS because I was caring for a child that was involved in an ugly child custody case, but regardless...they opened my fridge to take pix of the food, they opened my pantry to see i had food...they took pix of babys bedroom and bath room, where they slept, she even ran the hot water to ensure there was hot water also. In the final report we got, by subpoena, they mentioned the house was clean, there was plenty of food and home was free of issues but made a safety concern comment they recommend a fence in the backyard (there is water behind the house). I dont know about up there but down here i would bet money they would intervene in this situation. They appear to be pretty detailed around here.

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The point being, FL ain't PA.

With that being said, CYS can be brutal in PA.

Some counties in Florida work a little differently than most areas of the country - we have counties, including mine, where child protection services runs through the sheriff's office, rather than directly out of a "regular" state level CPS office. In my county, the investigators are civilians wearing sheriff's office identification and clothing and driving marked sheriff's office vehicles. They are trained and certified with the usual CPS requirements, but ALSO receive additional training from the sheriff's office as well. This setup has the ability to get things done, and QUICK. And, with code enforcement ALSO running via the sheriff's office, a case like this would have had a SWARM of people involved - if for no OTHER reason than any deputy driving by the place would have started the ball rolling by notifying code enforcement, who would then bring in CPS, etc. etc. - all within an hour or less. Remarkeably efficient, law enforcement radio =) In places where different layers of an issue are handled by different agencies, some of whom may not like or cooperate with each other very well, action can often take a LONG time, and LOTS of people "pushing" before anyone actually does anything (each hoping that some OTHER agency will be the one to cause change to occur). This is especially true in the case of law enforcement and CPS. In places where they play well, the law enforcement officers are well trained in what types of things need CPS involvement, and when they contact CPS, they EXPECT action to occur. If CPS doesn't play well, they'll show up, tell law enforcement "thanks, we'll take over", and then operate, or not, as they will.

Now, with all of that said...I agree with Doggie. PA's CYS investigators aren't known for being warm and fuzzy or even remotely understanding. Rather, they have more of a reputation of "remove the child first, and ask questions later". Of course there are always exceptions, and there are always cases where ALL of the facts are not known. A house with that much stuff stacked floor to ceiling could absolutely be a concern for an infant or toddler who may inadvertently pull a pile down on themselves. For teenagers, I'm not feeling the danger, and likely CYS or a judge wouldn't either. Again, just being MESSY or living in total chaos of clutter is WAY different than being in UNSANITARY conditions - animal feces, roaches, dirty diapers slowly sliding down the wall, toilets overflowing, standing scummy water accumulated on the kitchen floor and under the sink...THOSE are things that get children yanked out of homes ASAP. Things that are simply cluttered, disorganized, piled haphazardly, not so much, even if there is a LOT of stuff. No one is suggesting that it's a great enviroment for children, but REMOVAL of a child - taking the child AWAY from the parent, is even a bigger deal than taking away an individual's FREEDOM. It's easier to JAIL someone than it is to remove a child (as it SHOULD be - can anyone think of anything MORE valuable to them than their children?). Here, I don't see any DANGER to the children, and thus, while saddened, even disguested, I DO understand why the children haven't been removed from mom's care. (The downside of any type of enforcement is that while everyone might think that something should be done, the ACTUAL things that can be done by CYS or other agencies often boil down to extremes of taking no action because necessary thresholds haven't been crossed, or taking the ultimate action of removel. There is often little or nothing in between. Here, lack of danger, lack of issues of sanitation (apparantly) and the ages of the children (old enough to know not to pull down piles of stuff on top of themselves) all work against a removal order or even an emergency removal.

I used to live in PA...and I married a guy from PA.

(Steeler Girl through and through...shut up)

Back to a serious issue - there are certain jurisdictions within PA which are known for doing exactly that.... remove the kids, ask questions...oh, whenever we get around to it. Are you free say..5 months from now?

There is currently one on-going case to which I'm privy. Two children, a tween and a teen, were removed winter of last year after the Mother (with whom they lived) received a bite on the hand from the family dog.

It bears repeating: this was the mother who was bitten, not one of the children. The children were removed, the dog was eventually euthanized and as of this evening CYF and the foster family are still going through with the TPR petition (which would allow the foster family to adopt).

Now, Mom has a patchy criminal history (think bad checks, not murder). Dad is also part of the same TPR hearing and with Mom, is trying to fight.

This is, quite literally, all the state has. I am generally the first to scream "Oh come ON...there's more to the story....". In this one though? Not so much.

Make of that what you will.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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(Steeler Girl through and through...shut up)

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But I had SO many places to go with that......

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Quoting aardvarc

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But I had SO many places to go with that......

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Must. Not. Respond.

(Otherwise The Hammer might be tempted to shoo my naughty self into the dungeon..oh...wait... )

Dungeon. Party of one. Dungeon....

My father's second wife was a hoarder, a slob and more than a little criminally crazy (she had more father sign a POA when he was dying from lung cancer and cleaned him out financially). One could not walk through the house at all. The garage was filled with garbage, left meat on the floor of the garage to spoil in the June heat and attract varmints). The neighbors were ready to call the health department.

She had a mental illness. These pictures look awfully familiar from my dealings with my childhood home clean up. Just something to consider.

I have seen more than my share of uninhabitable dwellings. What catches my attention in those photos is that those nice white appliances are white. Not covered with the crud and crust of grime nicotine etc. Even the stacked cluttered dishes and containers in the kitchen photo look relatively clean. Now that is not to say they are but in the photos provided I am just not seeing it.

If it is an apartment, condo or even a rental code enforcement may have a say in things as well as a landlord.

Anyone else see the happy cat?

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Quoting Mephis

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I have seen more than my share of uninhabitable dwellings. What catches my attention in those photos is that those nice white appliances are white. Not covered with the crud and crust of grime nicotine etc. Even the stacked cluttered dishes and containers in the kitchen photo look relatively clean. Now that is not to say they are but in the photos provided I am just not seeing it....Anyone else see the happy cat?

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My points, exactly. I see no indication of rotting food (or rotting anything else), cat crap on the floors (or anybody's crap anywhere)...I see clutter. Clutter doesn't equal unsanitary. One gets children removed more often than not. The other doesn't, more often than not.

Wow, that is downright disgusting and disturbing!! I don't understand how any one could argue that's a healthy environment to raise kids in!

I'd be very surprised if there aren't rats and/or roaches lurking under that mess!

How anyone even get into the kitchen to prepare food?!

And I'd hate to see what the bathroom looks like! The bathtub is probably so filled with junk, that no one can bathe.

I also agree that blaming the kids for that mess and/or expecting them to be responsible to get it cleaned up is absurd! I have two kids myself, who make their fair share of messes, and yes, I have clutter, but my house has NEVER looked any thing remotely like that!

I'm sure the kids are too ashamed to even bring friends any where near their house.

I hope for the kids' sakes, that Dad can get custody of them.

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Quoting Blossom

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Wow, that is downright disgusting and disturbing!! I don't understand how any one could argue that's a healthy environment to raise kids in!

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There is a different between cluttered and unhealthy. If the government enters into the realm of Better Homes and Gardens, we then open the door to some very scary subjective evaluations of what is proper, and that is a slope that I think few of us might want to go around.

The standard generally is whether or not the environment puts the children at risk of harm, not whether WE might keep our homes that way. Understand that parents can raise their kids in a van, a trailer, and even a tent and there is no law against it.

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I'd be very surprised if there aren't rats and/or roaches lurking under that mess!

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Maybe. But, if they aren't seen, and CPS did not find good cause to remove the children, perhaps there was no evidence of it. But, this is why I also suggested contacting the county health department as they MIGHT be able to make an inspection.

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I hope for the kids' sakes, that Dad can get custody of them.

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Of course, dad lives in a one bedroom apartment so his apartment would soon rival this place in clutter.

I grew up with two parents, five siblings, and a foster sister, so 9 people, in a one story 1000 square foot house (no basement). We were beyond cramped.

My mother literally never cleaned, despite being a stay at home mom, and my dad did what he could, between working 7 days a week at two very physically demanding jobs. My siblings and I did what we could too, but we couldn't run a household ourselves. So we didn't live in a clean house either, by most standards.

We still never had clutter and piles of trash to anywhere near that extent. That house looks like someone hasn't thrown a single piece of trash all away in years.

I know everyone has different standards as far as cleanliness goes, but I'd have to agree with the person who said mom likely has some sort of psychological issue, regarding hoarding.

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Quoting Blossom

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I grew up with two parents, five siblings, and a foster sister, so 9 people, in a one story 1000 square foot house (no basement). We were beyond cramped.

My mother literally never cleaned, despite being a stay at home mom, and my dad did what he could, between working 7 days a week at two very physically demanding jobs. So we didn't live in a clean house either, by most standards.

We still never had clutter and piles of trash to anywhere near that extent. That house looks like someone hasn't thrown a single piece of trash all away in years.

I know everyone has different standards as far as cleanliness goes, but I'd have to agree with the person who said mom likely has some sort of psychological issue, regarding hoarding.

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And mom MAY have some psychological issue. But, this is not something that the CPS folks can evaluate on a visit, nor is it likely they can compel mom to submit to an evaluation. And, even if they did, I seriously doubt that you can say that having such a mental disorder would equal a risk to the children - much less, an immediate risk.

The issue here is whether the clutter (as represented in the photos) is sufficient cause to remove children from a home. In my experience, no, it is not. Depending upon the age of the children, the tolerance for clutter may be even higher. YOUNG children who might be exposed to sharp objects and other dangers in a cluttered residence might be more prone to being taken into protective custody. Teenagers, far less likely.

All dad can do is file for custody himself, AND contact CPS - and maybe health services and a city code enforcement officer. Apparently he already has contacted CPS and they have not taken the kids. So, either they have not investigated, or, they DID investigate and did not find it to be sufficiently dangerous to justify seizing the children without a court's order.

There are homes I'd love to take kids out of due to clutter, overcrowding, and all manner of problem. But, as the issue does not rise to that of an immediate risk, we can't.

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Quoting Blossom

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Wow, that is downright disgusting and disturbing!! I don't understand how any one could argue that's a healthy environment to raise kids in!

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One could argue that the opposite is worse - having 19 bottles of antiseptic lotion on every hard surface is (to some of us) even more dangerous.

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I'd be very surprised if there aren't rats and/or roaches lurking under that mess!

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Neither of which will generally result in the kids being removed on an emergency basis.

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How anyone even get into the kitchen to prepare food?!

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Preparing food in the kitchen is not a required component.

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And I'd hate to see what the bathroom looks like! The bathtub is probably so filled with junk, that no one can bathe.

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"Top and tail" is acceptable.

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I also agree that blaming the kids for that mess and/or expecting them to be responsible to get it cleaned up is absurd! I have two kids myself, who make their fair share of messes, and yes, I have clutter, but my house has NEVER looked any thing remotely like that!

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That mess didn't happen overnight. What have the little darlings been doing to help it get that far?

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I'm sure the kids are too ashamed to even bring friends any where near their house.

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I'm sure they'd be equally ashamed if Mom & Dad still had plastic covers on the couch and Dad smoked a pipe every night at the dinner table.

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I hope for the kids' sakes, that Dad can get custody of them.

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Unfortunately, that's exactly you were supposed to do. You bought every little thing the author was selling, without looking at it further.

Has anyone here ever lived on a working farm as a child? Never had your kids so darn tired from mucking out the pigs that the best you could do was make sure they washed their hands, cleaned their teeth and left their clothes lying in lump on the floor? Gawd I remember being (literally) elbow-deep in pig manure every weekend during the summer and I didn't even live there.

What about the parents who won't flush until there's actually something vaguely solid present? Are they bad parents?

The point being, your ideal home isn't my ideal home. And perhaps surprisingly, it usually takes some pretty extreme circumstances to necessitate removing the children on an emergency basis.

A mess like that being staged by a kid? That seems ludicrous. Likewise, to suggest that the kids try to tackle a mess like that is equally ludicrous. It looks like mom has issues with hoarding. If there's no safe ingress or egress, it's an absolute safety hazard.

Were I in your shoes I would call the cops as well as the county health department and stay all over CYS.

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Quoting EA1070a

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A mess like that being staged by a kid? That seems ludicrous. Likewise, to suggest that the kids try to tackle a mess like that is equally ludicrous. It looks like mom has issues with hoarding. If there's no safe ingress or egress, it's an absolute safety hazard.

Were I in your shoes I would call the cops as well as the county health department and stay all over CYS.

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Seriously though, CYS are demons for that stuff in PA. If they've been involved - and they have - and have chosen not to act, it really is indicative that the kids aren't at risk. They really are among the "remove the kids first, ask questions later" group.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Seriously though, CYS are demons for that stuff in PA. If they've been involved - and they have - and have chosen not to act, it really is indicative that the kids aren't at risk. They really are among the "remove the kids first, ask questions later" group.

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Yeah, I have no clue what CYS is like in PA but that is way beyond messy. I'd be throwing a fit, but I'm a pushy, impatient bitch, lol.