Children Not Removed from a Filthy Home

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Quoting aardvarc

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It would be interesting to know what code enforcement office thinks too. While the inside of the home generally isn't their business, if yards in my county looked like that with crap everywhere, the fines would be accumulating by the day and they'd be getting regular visits from a code enforcement officer.

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Yes, that can certainly be an issue. Maybe even Health Department, too ... depending on the details inside and out.

I was thinking that too....but I didn't see any food, indication of human or animal waste, roaches, or anything necessarily unsanitary. Just a lot of clutter. Therein lies the rub, eh?

I don't know. The whole place looks like a fire waiting to happen. i have had the ugly occasion when I had to open my home to CPS because I was caring for a child that was involved in an ugly child custody case, but regardless...they opened my fridge to take pix of the food, they opened my pantry to see i had food...they took pix of babys bedroom and bath room, where they slept, she even ran the hot water to ensure there was hot water also. In the final report we got, by subpoena, they mentioned the house was clean, there was plenty of food and home was free of issues but made a safety concern comment they recommend a fence in the backyard (there is water behind the house). I dont know about up there but down here i would bet money they would intervene in this situation. They appear to be pretty detailed around here.

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Quoting df04527

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I don't know. The whole place looks like a fire waiting to happen. i have had the ugly occasion when I had to open my home to CPS because I was caring for a child that was involved in an ugly child custody case, but regardless...they opened my fridge to take pix of the food, they opened my pantry to see i had food...they took pix of babys bedroom and bath room, where they slept, she even ran the hot water to ensure there was hot water also. In the final report we got, by subpoena, they mentioned the house was clean, there was plenty of food and home was free of issues but made a safety concern comment they recommend a fence in the backyard (there is water behind the house). I dont know about up there but down here i would bet money they would intervene in this situation. They appear to be pretty detailed around here.

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The point being, FL ain't PA.

With that being said, CYS can be brutal in PA.

Some counties in Florida work a little differently than most areas of the country - we have counties, including mine, where child protection services runs through the sheriff's office, rather than directly out of a "regular" state level CPS office. In my county, the investigators are civilians wearing sheriff's office identification and clothing and driving marked sheriff's office vehicles. They are trained and certified with the usual CPS requirements, but ALSO receive additional training from the sheriff's office as well. This setup has the ability to get things done, and QUICK. And, with code enforcement ALSO running via the sheriff's office, a case like this would have had a SWARM of people involved - if for no OTHER reason than any deputy driving by the place would have started the ball rolling by notifying code enforcement, who would then bring in CPS, etc. etc. - all within an hour or less. Remarkeably efficient, law enforcement radio =) In places where different layers of an issue are handled by different agencies, some of whom may not like or cooperate with each other very well, action can often take a LONG time, and LOTS of people "pushing" before anyone actually does anything (each hoping that some OTHER agency will be the one to cause change to occur). This is especially true in the case of law enforcement and CPS. In places where they play well, the law enforcement officers are well trained in what types of things need CPS involvement, and when they contact CPS, they EXPECT action to occur. If CPS doesn't play well, they'll show up, tell law enforcement "thanks, we'll take over", and then operate, or not, as they will.

Now, with all of that said...I agree with Doggie. PA's CYS investigators aren't known for being warm and fuzzy or even remotely understanding. Rather, they have more of a reputation of "remove the child first, and ask questions later". Of course there are always exceptions, and there are always cases where ALL of the facts are not known. A house with that much stuff stacked floor to ceiling could absolutely be a concern for an infant or toddler who may inadvertently pull a pile down on themselves. For teenagers, I'm not feeling the danger, and likely CYS or a judge wouldn't either. Again, just being MESSY or living in total chaos of clutter is WAY different than being in UNSANITARY conditions - animal feces, roaches, dirty diapers slowly sliding down the wall, toilets overflowing, standing scummy water accumulated on the kitchen floor and under the sink...THOSE are things that get children yanked out of homes ASAP. Things that are simply cluttered, disorganized, piled haphazardly, not so much, even if there is a LOT of stuff. No one is suggesting that it's a great enviroment for children, but REMOVAL of a child - taking the child AWAY from the parent, is even a bigger deal than taking away an individual's FREEDOM. It's easier to JAIL someone than it is to remove a child (as it SHOULD be - can anyone think of anything MORE valuable to them than their children?). Here, I don't see any DANGER to the children, and thus, while saddened, even disguested, I DO understand why the children haven't been removed from mom's care. (The downside of any type of enforcement is that while everyone might think that something should be done, the ACTUAL things that can be done by CYS or other agencies often boil down to extremes of taking no action because necessary thresholds haven't been crossed, or taking the ultimate action of removel. There is often little or nothing in between. Here, lack of danger, lack of issues of sanitation (apparantly) and the ages of the children (old enough to know not to pull down piles of stuff on top of themselves) all work against a removal order or even an emergency removal.

I used to live in PA...and I married a guy from PA.

(Steeler Girl through and through...shut up)

Back to a serious issue - there are certain jurisdictions within PA which are known for doing exactly that.... remove the kids, ask questions...oh, whenever we get around to it. Are you free say..5 months from now?

There is currently one on-going case to which I'm privy. Two children, a tween and a teen, were removed winter of last year after the Mother (with whom they lived) received a bite on the hand from the family dog.

It bears repeating: this was the mother who was bitten, not one of the children. The children were removed, the dog was eventually euthanized and as of this evening CYF and the foster family are still going through with the TPR petition (which would allow the foster family to adopt).

Now, Mom has a patchy criminal history (think bad checks, not murder). Dad is also part of the same TPR hearing and with Mom, is trying to fight.

This is, quite literally, all the state has. I am generally the first to scream "Oh come ON...there's more to the story....". In this one though? Not so much.

Make of that what you will.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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(Steeler Girl through and through...shut up)

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But I had SO many places to go with that......

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Quoting aardvarc

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But I had SO many places to go with that......

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Must. Not. Respond.

(Otherwise The Hammer might be tempted to shoo my naughty self into the dungeon..oh...wait... )

Dungeon. Party of one. Dungeon....

My father's second wife was a hoarder, a slob and more than a little criminally crazy (she had more father sign a POA when he was dying from lung cancer and cleaned him out financially). One could not walk through the house at all. The garage was filled with garbage, left meat on the floor of the garage to spoil in the June heat and attract varmints). The neighbors were ready to call the health department.

She had a mental illness. These pictures look awfully familiar from my dealings with my childhood home clean up. Just something to consider.