Re: Who is Responsible for Utility Bills when There is an Issue with the Equipment
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ekinnyc;814958]the PRV itself isnt the issue, im glad it worked, so that the heater didn't blow up from the pressure!
who said the PRV was the issue? I was explaining what a PRV does and how, if it was gushing water for a month, the tenants would have complained about no hot water and more than likely, somebody would have seen the running water. That suggests the failure of the PRV was very recent to it being discovered.
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the heater kept heating water, so yeah they had hot water but it was just heating non-stop.
if the PRV was stuck open, they would not have any hot water. If you doubt me, just open one hot water faucet and let it run continually. You will run out of hot water and have cold water until you close the faucet and allow the water to set in the heater for a period of time.
and a PRV will flow more water than any faucet in your house with the exception of the tub. It is an unrestricted 1/2" or 3/4" pipe so if it was gushing water continually, there would be no hot water in the house.
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but when they saw the electrical bill spike, they should have had FPL come and check it out, instead it was 10 days between them telling me and them having FPL come out.
they were new tenants. How were they to know what the typical bill was?
and I'll tell you something else; I can describe a situation that would also cause an excessive electric bill and it will cause a deadly situation in the building. Anytime you have an electrical issue so great as this was, you do not wait to find out what it is because as a landlord, your failure to repair the issue can make you liable for a lot of problems much more serious than a high electric bill.
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i am renting out a unit in Delray Beach. Tenant moved in effective May 1. On June 9, tenant's daughter emailed me that their electricity bill from FPL was very high, that FPL saw a spike in metering on May 12th. I suggested she have FPL come check, she said they told her they checked the meter via computer, and just told her of a spike in the usage. She told me "i will see what happens next month and let you know"
unless fpl called them on the 12th, the tenant didn't know about the spike but were told of it after they got the high bill and called fpl to inquire. It was after that they emailed you I presume. I don't see the delay you keep speaking of
so, when did the tenant actually realize there was a problem? From what I see, they wouldn't know until they recieved a bill that seemed excessive. That seems like around June 9 might have been that time.
at that point, you could have acted but you accepted the "I will see what happens next month". They didn't know what a typical bill was there. They had no idea what typical usage was there but since it was your place, you did.
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i still think theres some simple ignorance/negligence on their part - i wasnt made aware of it until a month after the electricity spiked. if the elec bill is $680, i doubt the PRV failed just recently as it had to have been pushing out water for a while. if it was periodic cycling, i doubt the bill would be that high if the PRV was releasing the water periodically.
I think you found out when the tenant found out. A call to FPL would be the result of that crazy bill where FPL said; well, we see a spike on the 12 of May. That is info the were told nearly a month later as well.
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when i handed over the keys, the boiler was in working condition -
so it's supposed to last forever?
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not like they had issues with it such as no hot water, or water that was too hot.
so now you know that neither was an issue? If you meant when they moved in, well, again, are things supposed to last forever?
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i dont know if they did something to the boiler or not.
hold on here. Do you have a boiler or an electric water heater? They are two very different appliances.
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i cant accept that i have to shoulder the whole bill. i can live with what some have suggested, such as rent reduction for a year, or paying a part of the bill.... i just hope it doesnt come to getting lawyers involved
you were notified of a very high bill. It sounds like you were notified as soon as the tenant found out about it as well. YOU failed to do anything or suggest anything at that point. YOU failed to continue to follow the issue by checking with FPL about the ongoing usage. It isn't the tenants fault you live in NY and couldn't drive over.
but getting a lawyer involved for less than a couple grand? It would cost more in legal fees.
and I still think you would lose on top of that.
Re: Who is Responsible for Utility Bills when There is an Issue with the Equipment
Electric heater, not boiler
It was in working condition when I handed over the keys. I realize thing break over time but I can't check daily if it remains working or not unless I live in the unit myself.
When they moved in, and checked everything, it was all working fine (so it isn't as though I willingly rented a unit with a defective heater). Whatever issues cropped up, they immediately notify me (ie washer wasn't actually working) and I fix. No issues with electricity/heater until last week.
Yes they found out when the got their bill. But they lived in Florida, in the same town, so I would expect them to have an idea about an average elec bill much more than I would. When she told me about the high bill, I said "call fpl". She said "let's wait and see". The bill is in their name, I wouldn't be able to speak to anyone over there anyway.
Let's go back to the prv and the heater for a second... How can the heater be running nonstop for almost a month, drawings that kind of electricity, without any visible clues to anyone?
So again, no issues when they moved in, no complaints about hot water or lack thereof over the last month until this electricity debacle. When fpl came to look, that's when they found that the heater was gushing.
So something doesn't add up here
Re: Who is Responsible for Utility Bills when There is an Issue with the Equipment
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When they moved in, and checked everything, it was all working fine (so it isn't as though I willingly rented a unit with a defective heater). Whatever issues cropped up, they immediately notify me (ie washer wasn't actually working) and I fix. No issues with electricity/heater until last week.
nobody said you were to blame for the issue or you are a bad landlord.
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Yes they found out when the got their bill
.so, when did they get the bill? You keep complaining they waited a month to tell you but from the dates you provided, it sounds like they let you know fairly soon after they found out.
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But they lived in Florida, in the same town, so I would expect them to have an idea about an average elec bill much more than I would.
well, I have a friend that has a house about the same size as mine. I have gas heat, elect water heater, water well, gas stove, electric dryer.
his is all electric.
my electric bill and my gas bill are each more than his electric bill so, you were saying what about they should know what a typical bill is? Each housing unit is going to be unique to itself.
This was your housing so if anybody would know what a typical bill would be, it would be you.
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When she told me about the high bill, I said "call fpl". She said "let's wait and see".
wait a minute:
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Tenant moved in effective May 1. On June 9, tenant's daughter emailed me that their electricity bill from FPL was very high, that FPL saw a spike in metering on May 12th. I suggested she have FPL come check, she said they told her they checked the meter via computer, and just told her of a spike in the usage.
so they contacted FPL by the time they contacted you. That's not wait and see. FPL said there was a spike. what are you meaning when you say a spike? What I call a spike is an abrupt increase followed shortly after by a similar decrease resulting in a line on a graph that would see considered a spike. If that is what FPL was describing, then it would appear the problem was intermittent at that point. That makes it even harder to discover.
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Let's go back to the prv and the heater for a second... How can the heater be running nonstop for almost a month, drawings that kind of electricity, without any visible clues to anyone?
Ok, if the PRV was working properly, there would be, at most, intermittent discharges of water less than a gallon each time. Any time they were using water in the house, that relief of pressure would have caused the PRV to not be activated or at least, less often. That means, during the day, it is quite possible the PRV was never activated and unless they were out there all night, they simply may not have seen it.
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So again, no issues when they moved in, no complaints about hot water or lack thereof over the last month until this electricity debacle. When fpl came to look, that's when they found that the heater was gushing.
again, if there was continual gushing of water and they had hot water up until that point, I suspect the PRV had just recently failed.
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So something doesn't add up here
I don't see a problem at all. Water heater had problems. Prv worked when needed so water heater problem wasn't discovered. At some point, prv failed and the gushing water was seen. that would cause a high electric bill and not much of an elevated water bill until the prv failed. .
Ultimately though the reason the bill was so high was due to a malfunctioning appliance. Not saying it was your fault nor that you should have discovered it sooner, necessarily but the fact is, the landlord is required to provide properly functioning appliances and because of the malfunction, the electric bill is crazy high. I don't see how that is the tenants fault or responsibility.
Re: Who is Responsible for Utility Bills when There is an Issue with the Equipment
I'm not saying they waited a month. I'm saying that when she told me on June 9 that they got a high bill from fpl, I told her to call fpl and have them come check. Instead, She said they told her over the phone that starting on May 12th the elec usage became (and stayed) very high. So the month I am talking about is the period of time the heater was in "always on" mode - something that should have manifested itself (unless something was ignored by them)
So... Very high usage for a full month (until they get bill), which implies a persistent issue. So if It was constantly on, where was the water going if it wasn't being released by the prv? Unless he had water running nonstop? That's what doesn't make sense to me - prv recently failed but if the unit was continuously on for a month, heating water, the valve should have been discharging very frequently. If it was always on, what was it heating if not for a large volume of water.
Yes my responsibility as landlord is To provide working appliances, which I did at time of lease signing. If something breaks afterwards, I cannot know that it wasn't due to something they did. Let's say a tenant takes a sledge hammer to the heater and tells me it stops working - am I necessarily liable to replace it?
Re: Who is Responsible for Utility Bills when There is an Issue with the Equipment
One thing that is obvious you do not understand is how much expansion can be absorbed within the plumbing system of the building. Depending on the type of piping, it could expand considerable which would mean it took that much longer for the pressure to build up enough to cause the prv to release. Once it released, that cycle of the entire plumbing system being pressurized all over and realize, for the prv to pop, the entire plumbing system in the house is being raised to that pressure.
it is not an instant reaction.
Add to that the use of hot water would mean the water in the heater would start back at the base temperature and would need to be heated so much it caused enough pressure to trip the prv.
Unless you have some proof they caused this problem, pondering whether they took a hammer to the thing is simply ridiculous. Water heated thermostats fail. It's just that simple. Your plumber told you yours failed. Ask him if he saw any signs of tampering.
Re: Who is Responsible for Utility Bills when There is an Issue with the Equipment
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Quoting
ekinnyc
Tenant moved in effective May 1. On June 9, tenant's daughter emailed me that their electricity bill from FPL was very high, that FPL saw a spike in metering on May 12th....
Yesterday, she called me and told me that FPL found that the water heater in the unit was stuck in heat mode, and that it was discharging hot water out of the pressure release valve, out the side of the house....
...i dont know what happened between may 1 - may 12th. the unit sat unoccupied for a year so these issues werent obvious to me. in limited usage (contractors working at the unit), there was hot water, and the elec bill was no more than $40/mo....
How old is this water heater? When you replaced it, what was the plumber able to determine about its failure?
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ekinnyc
when i handed over the keys, the boiler was in working condition - not like they had issues with it such as no hot water, or water that was too hot....
And, as you later note, it wasn't a boiler.
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Quoting
ekinnyc
I'm not saying they waited a month. I'm saying that when she told me on June 9 that they got a high bill from fpl, I told her to call fpl and have them come check. Instead, She said they told her over the phone that starting on May 12th the elec usage became (and stayed) very high.
And she had them come out to check the water heater.
I can see the potential for a tenant trying to make a case that the water heater was not capable of supporting the demands of an occupied unit, and that the increased bill resulted from your failure to properly inspect and maintain the water heater. It may not be a winning argument, but given how quickly the water heater failed after move-in it has some potential -- more so if the water heater is something of an antique.
Re: Who is Responsible for Utility Bills when There is an Issue with the Equipment
Let me give you yet another scenario as to what happened. The tenant didn't think the shower was hot enough for their liking. Probably because of the temperature limit in the shower valve body. Instead of setting the valve body to a higher temperature (which would require a plumber to a know-no nothing-about plumbing tenant) they go and max out the temperature control on the water heater which does nothing to increase the temp in the shower but they leave it there.
The PRV does its job and periodically relieves high pressure. But PRV's do get old, the spring weakens, the springs rust and they do break. I know this from first hand experience.
There is really no way to know what the tenant's roll was in this situation.
Re: Who is Responsible for Utility Bills when There is an Issue with the Equipment
You cannot set the thermostat high enough to cause the prv to be necessary. It takes heating water to over boiling temp to build pressures necessary.
the thermostat failed. The plumber even said so and if that was the only problem with the heater the plumber would have put a $20 thermostat on it. If the prv failed, that too can be replace for under $50. Apparently the appliance was old enough to warrant suggesting a completely new appliance.
Re: Who is Responsible for Utility Bills when There is an Issue with the Equipment
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jk
You cannot set the thermostat high enough to cause the prv to be necessary. It takes heating water to over boiling temp to build pressures necessary.
I disagree with you here JK. PRV for a water heater is set to 210 degrees F and a pressure of 150 PSI. The valve will blow if either condition is met. Obviously, 210 degrees is below the boiling point of water at sea level and 150 PSI can be met with a water hammer effect on a water system. So it entirely possible for a PRV to operate periodically with nothing wrong with the system. And let's not forget thermal expansion of the water in the heater form cold to hot. A 40 gallon heater will expand the volume by at least 1/2 gallon. It has to go somewhere.
These periodic releases of pressure do corrode the spring over time and they do break allowing the 'gush' of water out of the system.
Did you ever hear of a competent plumber installing a boiler PRV (30 PSI) on a water heater?:rolleyes: It does happen.