Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
My question involves guardianship in the State of: New York
I am still legally married. However, my husband is not living in the home due to an order of protection. The order may be removed in a few weeks. He wants to take my girls out of the country for vacation in July. He already knows I do not agree with this but has purchased tickets anyway. Would he be allowed to do this? And what can I do to stop it. My family keeps advising me not to get a divorce until we can speak to each other. But, I do not understand why he would choose to do this at this time. Any advice?
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
Unless there's a court order that says he can't take the children where he chooses, he can take the children where he chooses. If you wish to stop the vacation, seek a court order restricting international travel. You should talk to your divorce lawyer about whether you have any grounds for seeking such an order.
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
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Mr. Knowitall
Unless there's a court order that says he can't take the children where he chooses, he can take the children where he chooses. If you wish to stop the vacation, seek a court order restricting international travel. You should talk to your divorce lawyer about whether you have any grounds for seeking such an order.
I am going to disagree with this answer. Technically the permission of both parents is required for children to travel outside of the country...even parents who are married to each other. Now, that doesn't mean that a parent gets stopped every time they don't have written permission on them from the other parent, but it does happen often enough that its problematic.
I will also point out that married parents have equal legal rights regarding the children. Therefore absent court orders mom can refuse to allow the children to go. Her rights are equal to dads.
Now, on to more pragmatic issues. Its beyond strange that dad would plan an international vacation while there are protection orders against him. That raises a big red flag.
Mom, do the children have passports and if so where are those passports?
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
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llworking
I am going to disagree with this answer. Technically the permission of both parents is required for children to travel outside of the country...even parents who are married to each other.
It is true that it is advisable, when traveling solo with the kids, to have a letter from the other parent authorizing the travel. But that's not a U.S. law, and it's up to the customs officials of whatever country you're visiting whether or not they'll let you enter without a letter. I would personally take a letter, but it would be quite the overstatement to suggest that parents are being turned back at borders on their solo trips, and very much an overstatement to suggest that the letters are required (as opposed to recommended) for international travel with children. Please list the countries that actually require such a letter, as opposed to merely recommending one.
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Quoting llworking
...but it does happen often enough that its problematic.
How often does it happen? Please share your source, as the actual numbers appear to be vanishingly small.
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Quoting llworking
I will also point out that married parents have equal legal rights regarding the children. Therefore absent court orders mom can refuse to allow the children to go. Her rights are equal to dads.
That's not correct. What it means is that she has no authority to veto dad's travel plans absent a court order giving her the right to do so, as her rights are not superior to his.
The only place where both parents' permission is needed is in obtaining a passport, but an objection can be overcome with a court order.
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
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Mr. Knowitall
It is true that it is advisable, when traveling solo with the kids, to have a letter from the other parent authorizing the travel. But that's not a U.S. law, and it's up to the customs officials of whatever country you're visiting whether or not they'll let you enter without a letter. I would personally take a letter, but it would be quite the overstatement to suggest that parents are being turned back at borders on their solo trips, and very much an overstatement to suggest that the letters are required (as opposed to recommended) for international travel with children. Please list the countries that actually require such a letter, as opposed to merely recommending one.
How often does it happen? Please share your source, as the actual numbers appear to be vanishingly small.
That's not correct. What it means is that she has no authority to veto dad's travel plans absent a court order giving her the right to do so, as her rights are not superior to his.
The only place where both parents' permission is needed is in obtaining a passport, but an objection can be overcome with a court order.
Mom's rights are not superior to dad's and dad's rights are not superior to mom's. Your argument lacks logic. If mom cannot stop the children from traveling over dad's objections, then dad cannot take the children over mom's objections either. If mom says no, the cops are not going to come and take the children away from mom so that dad can travel with them. If dad has the children and travels with them the cops also will not take the children away from dad.
Therefore, its a stalemate. To suggest otherwise suggests that one parent's rights are superior to the other's, either direction. It ignores the equality of the two parent's rights and gives mom the false impression that nothing can be done except to roll over and let dad take the children out of the country.
To me, that is a bit irresponsible in a situation where there is currently a protection order against dad.
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
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llworking
Mom's rights are not superior to dad's and dad's rights are not superior to mom's. Your argument lacks logic.
No, mine is predecated on the equality of parents, and the fact that they cannot trump each other's parenting decisions in the absence of a court order. Your position is something you have made up, and for which you cannot present any legal authority.
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Quoting llworking
If mom cannot stop the children from traveling over dad's objections, then dad cannot take the children over mom's objections either.
Don't be obtuse. Do you imagine that mom is going to be hanging out at airport security? If mom wants to stop the trip mom should seek a court order.
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Quoting llworking
If mom says no, the cops are not going to come and take the children away from mom so that dad can travel with them.
If mom chooses to refuse to allow dad to have access to the children, and does so on her own initiative rather than going through the court, she's going to be giving dad a true gift when he takes the issue to court.
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Quoting llworking
If dad has the children and travels with them the cops also will not take the children away from dad.
You're slowly catching on. Let's play "fill in the blanks". The police aren't going to help her because she does not have a _____ _____.
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Quoting llworking
Therefore, its a stalemate.
Nonsense.
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
I live closer to Canada than - as far as I know - anyone else on this forum. I'm about 10 mins drive away - and when I'm up at the kids' place, they can (literally) see apartment buildings over the border.
While both are, on paper, supposed to at least question the parent of the minor child to make sure that parent is actually the parent, getting into the US and Canada without a letter/notification from the other parent is so easy as to make it almost a shoe-in.
I suspect Mexico is the same...at least one way.
Canada is mentioned here as having very strict regulations, but whoever wrote it obviously doesn't live where I live ;)
To whit:
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...ot-a-parent-or
Perhaps y'all are focusing on travel by flight?
That's not the only way to get out of the US...
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
Yours was the only response mentioning anything other than flight. Hence my extra-helpful response :cool:
Don't mind me. I'm somewhat tainted by the horrifically long lines at Costco which just happens to be...a hop and quick jump over the border into the US.
:D
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
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Dogmatique
Yours was the only response mentioning anything other than flight. Hence my extra-helpful response :cool:
Don't mind me. I'm somewhat tainted by the horrifically long lines at Costco which just happens to be...a hop and quick jump over the border into the US.
:D
Since mom hasn't come back and answered any questions, I haven't really even got to the point of giving mom any specific advise. However I think its a huge red flag that dad has a protection order against him and has purchased tickets to travel out of the country with the children. Without more information we cannot give mom any truly valid advice.
I just felt that it was a bit irresponsible to lead any parent, be they mother OR father, to believe that in a scenario like this one that they had no choice but to allow the overseas travel or they would be giving a huge legal "gift" to the other parent. In fact, I cannot imagine a judge dinging any parent for withholding the children in order to prevent them from being taken overseas in a situation like this one.
I just hope that the children either don't have passports or mom has possession of those passports...OR that dad is a born and bred American who has absolutely no intention of living in another country, and really just stupidly paid for tickets while in the midst of a protection order.
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
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llworking
Since mom hasn't come back and answered any questions, I haven't really even got to the point of giving mom any specific advise. However I think its a huge red flag that dad has a protection order against him and has purchased tickets to travel out of the country with the children. Without more information we cannot give mom any truly valid advice.
I just felt that it was a bit irresponsible to lead any parent, be they mother OR father, to believe that in a scenario like this one that they had no choice but to allow the overseas travel or they would be giving a huge legal "gift" to the other parent. In fact, I cannot imagine a judge dinging any parent for withholding the children in order to prevent them from being taken overseas in a situation like this one.
I just hope that the children either don't have passports or mom has possession of those passports...OR that dad is a born and bred American who has absolutely no intention of living in another country, and really just stupidly paid for tickets while in the midst of a protection order.
I'm just not seeing the threat.
Unfortunately, we see a lot of this: Parent is fine with other parent right up until divorce papers are filed and then - suddenly - the other parent becomes the Anti-Christ.
We're not even sure it IS a "normal" protection order; in more than a few states there's the ATRO and while it generally refers to putting the finances on hold (and dropping the parent from insurance and whatnot), it's not difficult for the parents to misunderstand it.
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
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Dogmatique
I'm just not seeing the threat.
Unfortunately, we see a lot of this: Parent is fine with other parent right up until divorce papers are filed and then - suddenly - the other parent becomes the Anti-Christ.
We're not even sure it IS a "normal" protection order; in more than a few states there's the ATRO and while it generally refers to putting the finances on hold (and dropping the parent from insurance and whatnot), it's not difficult for the parents to misunderstand it.
I don't disagree with you at all. My problem was the stating that dad could do whatever he wanted and mom could do nothing to stop it without a court order...and then that mom would be giving dad a legal gift if she stopped the travel, again without asking the poster more questions first. There wasn't enough information provided to come to that conclusion. However if mom was very legally naïve, that could be enough for mom to roll over and play dead and end up with her children in another country without the legal means or finances to get them back.
AND...the same thing could apply for a dad in similar circumstances.
Mom hasn't been back...I hope she didn't just accept that answer.
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
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llworking
I just felt that it was a bit irresponsible to lead any parent, be they mother OR father, to believe that in a scenario like this one that they had no choice but to allow the overseas travel or they would be giving a huge legal "gift" to the other parent. In fact, I cannot imagine a judge dinging any parent for withholding the children in order to prevent them from being taken overseas in a situation like this one.
You didn't even pay attention to the original post, in which the OP suggests that the protective order will soon vaporize.
You can keep going on this all you want, but it won't change the fact that you are wrong, and that you're blowing smoke up the OP's skirt. If mom wants to stop the trip, mom needs a court order. If mom wants to take your advice and try to withhold the children from visitation, not only could that effort fail your glib assumption that it won't backfire on mom when the issue goes to court is wholly unfounded. Trying to reinvent the statement into telling mom she can't do anything? Not even close. Seeking a court order is not "doing nothing". Your proposal, on the other hand, would qualify as "doing nothing".
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
I just want to jump in here and say that Costco may have long lines, but they move extremely fast. Sam's Club, on the other hand, move like molasses.
Re: Can a Parent Take the Children on an International Vacation After Separation
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mmmagique
I just want to jump in here and say that Costco may have long lines, but they move extremely fast. Sam's Club, on the other hand, move like molasses.
Like heck they do.
It's a proven fact that queues at Costco are far lengthier and more time-consuming. I read it on the Interwebz.
And I'm still not seeing where Dad is a flight risk.
:cool: