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Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Clerical Errors

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  • 03-13-2014, 12:09 PM
    sabcal
    Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Clerical Errors
    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California.

    I got pulled over for a STOP SIGN violation while returning back from work, at 9.15PM (below my apartment). The cop has mis-stated:

    1. The "date of violation", instead of 10/25/13 it is 12/25/13.
    2. The "on or before this date", instead of 1/29/14 it is 1/29/13 (This date indicates the last date to appear at the place indicated on citation.)
    3. Color of car, instead of "Olive Green" it is "Gray".

    I got a court date where the officer will also be present, I would like to defend the case (no legal background - an engineer by profession) and have the following questions are:

    1. What should I start by saying?
    2. I have collected proof that on the "mis-stated date" I was somewhere else - Can I use this to argue?
    3. How can I file for discovery. I went to the DA office and they indicated that only a lawyer firm can file for it, OR if the judge sends a letter stating am defending the case by my-self - then they can accept the request.

    Please advise.. If there are prior posts with similar content, please point me to them. Appreciate all your folks help!
  • 03-14-2014, 12:31 AM
    That Guy
    Re: Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Errors
    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    1. The "date of violation", instead of 10/25/13 it is 12/25/13.
    2. The "on or before this date", instead of 1/29/14 it is 1/29/13 (This date indicates the last date to appear at the place indicated on citation.)
    3. Color of car, instead of "Olive Green" it is "Gray".

    1 and 2 are simply typographical errors that have no impact or bearing on the validity of the citation. You are encouraged to bring them up if/when you do appear in court, but to assume that you will beat the ticket as a result, I think you are most likely to be disappointed and find yourself having to answer to the charge the same way you would without the errors. As for #3, that is pretty subjective.. And it not like he described a white car as being black. Nevertheless, your vehicle is identified by license plate and at any rate, the color car has no impact whatsoever on whether you ran the stop sign or not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    I got a court date where the officer will also be present, I would like to defend the case...

    The only time the officer is expected to be present is when you plead not guilty and request a trial. ANd yet the described errors are not really a defense as I described above.

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    I have collected proof that on the "mis-stated date" I was somewhere else - Can I use this to argue?

    There really is nothing to argue... At the time of the traffic stop, you were given a notice to appear to sign. Your signature is simply a promise to appear but it also is affirmative proof that you were there. This further confirms the simple error and leaves you with noting to argue...

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    3. How can I file for discovery. I went to the DA office and they indicated that only a lawyer firm can file for it, OR if the judge sends a letter stating am defending the case by my-self - then they can accept the request.

    I cannot think of one single item that you can request through discovery that will improve your situation any... But maybe I am missing something.. What is it you are requesting through discovery that is likely to improve your defense any?
  • 03-14-2014, 01:44 PM
    sabcal
    Re: Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Errors
    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    I cannot think of one single item that you can request through discovery that will improve your situation any... But maybe I am missing something.. What is it you are requesting through discovery that is likely to improve your defense any?

    Thank-you for the reply, I did request for a trial by pleading not guilty on the 1st court date. My reason for requesting discovery is to look at the officer notes. The officer was hesitant in answering my questions - a) whether I stopped before the white line and didn't appear sure..

    He mentioned I entered the intersection at 7mph, but wrote 8mph on the ticket. I asked him if had a radar to determine that, he said - no, he has 25 years of experience doing this...

    Also, another officer I was chatting with at the Police Station indicated the court should usually dismiss the case with the "wrong" information on the court.. but am guessing this is all subjective and varies from judge to judge.
  • 03-14-2014, 02:12 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Errors
    In what context were you questioning the officer?

    I find the error in the date of the offense difficult to understand. Sometimes, "mistakes" of that type turn out to be the result of bad handwriting or a bad copy.
  • 03-14-2014, 03:00 PM
    sabcal
    Re: Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Errors
    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    In what context were you questioning the officer?

    I find the error in the date of the offense difficult to understand. Sometimes, "mistakes" of that type turn out to be the result of bad handwriting or a bad copy.

    I was telling the officer that I stopped before the intersection, and he mentioned "Nopes, you entered the intersection at 7mph". To that I was asking him did he have a radar to measure it.

    The "error" in this case is clearly not due to bad hand writing / copy. It is very clear he did not write it correctly. I did receive a "Notice of Correction sheet" from the same officer.. Am very positive I stopped in the night (before the intersection), it was late in the night, no street lights - low visibility and the cop was hiding (with lights off) to the right of intersection.

    Please suggest on how I can present my case if I cannot use the "incorrect dates".
  • 03-14-2014, 03:02 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Errors
    Not "what questions did you ask", but "in what context were you questioning the officer."

    Context.
  • 03-14-2014, 03:16 PM
    sabcal
    Re: Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Errors
    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    Not "what questions did you ask", but "in what context were you questioning the officer."

    Context.

    Context was he was handing out the ticket and I was pleading that I did stop (before the intersection).
  • 03-15-2014, 12:25 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Errors
    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    My reason for requesting discovery is to look at the officer notes.

    I am not so sure what you are expecting to find in his notes that is likely to confirm your belief that he is unsure of anything.

    In other words, him knowing you could request a copy of his notes, would imply that if he is making any of this up, or if he was simply speculating, he is NOT going to write anything that would raise doubt upon his statement... Would you document any or of doubt you had only to then stand in court under oath and make affirmative statements indicating someone did not stop?

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    My reason for requesting discovery is to look at the officer notes. The officer was hesitant in answering my questions - a) whether I stopped before the white line...

    The officer is not under any obligation to answer any of your questions. In fact, they are trained to limit chit chat on the side of the road simply because all it does is it lead to disagreements... You aren't going to directly admit fault (or so you think) and he isn't going to change his mind about citing you if that had been his intent at that time. More often than not, discussions such as what you describe lead to an admission of guilt... That too might make it into the officer's notes.

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    whether I stopped before the white line and didn't appear sure...

    I would suggest that his statement about you running the stop at 7 mph would be sufficient to indicate you committed the violation. But wait...

    You were asking him if you stopped and yet you conclude that HE was unsure?

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    He mentioned I entered the intersection at 7mph, but wrote 8mph on the ticket.

    And??? He can testify that you entered at 10 mph and then upon cross examination say "oh, maybe it was 12 mph"... So what? Speed is not an element of the offense that he has to prove or document. The point is, you passe over the point where your speed was supposed to be zero, at a higher speed!

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    To that I was asking him did he have a radar to measure it.

    Same exact answer as above, speed is not an element of the offense! But still, It did benefit you to have this conversation with him simply because now you know the answer to ANY speculative matters that you might bring up is going to be this:

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    he has 25 years of experience doing this...

    And he need not state it as he did to you. As he begins to testify, he will mention how long he has been a police officer, how ling has he been in his current assignment... etc,... Something that will clue the judge in that he has sufficient experience where all these silly matters you are bringing up will get shut down by the judge.... Quickly!

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    Also, another officer I was chatting with at the Police Station indicated the court should usually dismiss the case with the "wrong" information on the court.. but am guessing this is all subjective and varies from judge to judge.

    And a few moments later, you thanked him and walked away which was the exact reason why he simply told you what you wanted to hear.

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    I did receive a "Notice of Correction sheet" from the same officer..

    A "notice of correction" correcting what?

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    whether I stopped before the white line and didn't appear sure..

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    I was telling the officer that I stopped before the intersection...

    Am very positive I stopped in the night (before the intersection)

    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    Context was he was handing out the ticket and I was pleading that I did stop (before the intersection).

    You've repeated that four times here, and you have indicated mentioning it to the officer (not sure how many times or what your wording was) and I am wondering whether you actually realize that stopping "before the line" .... and/or... "before the intersection" does not meet the requirement for a lawful stop. A proper stop, as is described in the code, must be made AT the line:

    CVC 22450

    (a) The driver of any vehicle approaching a stop sign at the entrance to, or within, an intersection shall stop at a limit line, if marked, otherwise before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection.
    If there is no limit line or crosswalk, the driver shall stop at the entrance to the intersecting roadway.

    And its not that the citing officer needed your help to offer sufficient proof (by his testimony) that you ran the stop, you've made it sufficiently clear that you admitted as much to him, at least once.
  • 03-21-2014, 12:36 PM
    sabcal
    Re: Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Errors
    Hello All,

    Thank-you for the comments and feedback. As closure, I was found guilty by the judge - the officer under oath stated he had visual range of 40 feet and he had sent an amendment (for clerical error on the date).

    The judge did not give me a "safety school" option since I entered trial. Btw, of the 9 cases for hearing today, 4 of them were no-show by the police officers (so there cases were dismissed).

    The judge was liberal, he dismissed 3 cases -- in favor of defendants.
  • 03-21-2014, 01:03 PM
    Welfarelvr
    Re: Can You Beat a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign Based on Errors
    Quote:

    Quoting sabcal
    View Post
    The judge did not give me a "safety school" option since I entered trial.

    No, that was not the reason. The reason was it was within the court's discretion to grant school and he must have exercised that discretion based on the individual circumstances of your specific case.

    To not give the option solely because you did not plead guilty and went to trial would be in violation of the rules of the court and appellate court decisions.
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