Using a Speed Trap Defense for a 25 MPH Zone
My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California
First post here so go easy on me. I've read through the forum and haven't found the answers to my questions. First ticket in over ten years and not justified IMHO.
BASICS:
I was cited March 4 for 38 in a 25MPH zone, laser was used. 4-lane divided road so not a local road. I have not yet appeared or posted bail.
SPEED TRAP LAW:
I'm trying to make sense of CVC40802 as shown on the CA website here:http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=40800-40808
I'm generally pretty good at diagramming outlines but I can't seem to see how to properly indent this and determine what is a subsection of what. There is one section mentioning a 5-year traffic survey and another 7-years. Which is it?
Regardless of whether this is a speed trap by legal definition, it certainly is one by functional definition as 25 is way too low and anyone doing 25 is likely to get run over.
DISCOVERY:
I would certainly like to see the traffic engineering survey both to verify its timeliness and also for the justification of the 25MPH speed. Where do I go to get this? The road is within the city limits of Goleta, CA. Law enforcement is actually Santa Barbara county sheriff, but the city apparently contracts out to them. Some patrol cars have City of Goleta Police, others SB Sheriff. Uniforms are SB Sheriff.
Similarly, where do I ask for the officer's proof of required training and laser calibration? The serial number of the laser unit isn't on the citation not did I examine it at the time.
TRIAL BY WRITTEN DECLARATION:
I see that this is recommended by several in the forum. I question why, as it seems to pretty much be a rubber-stamp guilty. Also by going for a TBD, being found guilty, asking for trial de novo do I forfeit the 45-day right to speedy trial? Is it possible to get the speed trap documents (traffic survey, training, laser calibration) by discovery for trial by declaration?
Re: Using a Speed Trap Defense for a 25 MPH Zone
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speeder38
I was cited March 4 for 38 in a 25MPH zone, laser was used.
Why is the limit posted at 25mph? School Zone (see 22352(b)(2))? Residential district (See 22352(b)(1))? Business district(See 22352(b)(1) as well)? Is it near a senior center (See 22352(b)(3)) or a public park (see 22357.1)?
Speed traps would not apply to any of those cases. Simply because all those zones require a 25 mph limit are statutory speed limits and the great likelihood in all of those cases is that the speed limit was not determined by way of a survey, instead, it was simply posted by looking at abutting property and establishing that 25 mph limit by statute.
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speeder38
I'm generally pretty good at diagramming outlines but I can't seem to see how to properly indent this and determine what is a subsection of what.
This, in my opinion is properly indented CVC 40802. Just don't worry about the different colors, I was explaining how those subsections apply to different circumstances none of which apply here.
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...dentations.jpg
(Assuming you answered "yes" to any of the "is it" questions I asked above, that would then be the reason that this segment of roadway would not fall under the scope of 40802(b), for 2 reasons: (1) because none of the code sections I cited above as the authority behind each 25 mph limit is listed under 40802(a)(2), and/or (2) because of those locations are excluded under other subparagraohs under 40802.
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speeder38
There is one section mentioning a 5-year traffic survey and another 7-years. Which is it?
Whether the 5 year, 7 year or 10 year provisions apply is dependent upon the date the most recent survey was conducted. In this case, and if any of the conditions (abutting properties) are as described, then you won't find a survey/
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speeder38
Regardless of whether this is a speed trap by legal definition, it certainly is one by functional definition as 25 is way too low and anyone doing 25 is likely to get run over.
Well, if it is a statutory speed limit, then by "functional definition" a 25 mph limit is what the law requires it to be... And therefore it is not low or high but exactly where it must be!
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speeder38
DISCOVERY:
I would certainly like to see the traffic engineering survey both to verify its timeliness and also for the justification of the 25MPH speed. Where do I go to get this? The road is within the city limits of Goleta, CA. Law enforcement is actually Santa Barbara county sheriff, but the city apparently contracts out to them. Some patrol cars have City of Goleta Police, others SB Sheriff. Uniforms are SB Sheriff.
Similarly, where do I ask for the officer's proof of required training and laser calibration? The serial number of the laser unit isn't on the citation not did I examine it at the time.
If a survey does exist you can easily obtain it from the city's public works department. And without the provisions of CVC 40802 applying there are no statutory requirements for Radar/Laser training or for calibration. But you can request those from the citing agency.
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speeder38
TRIAL BY WRITTEN DECLARATION:
I see that this is recommended by several in the forum. I question why, as it seems to pretty much be a rubber-stamp guilty. Also by going for a TBD, being found guilty, asking for trial de novo do I forfeit the 45-day right to speedy trial? Is it possible to get the speed trap documents (traffic survey, training, laser calibration) by discovery for trial by declaration?
Before you can decide whether its a rubber stamping process or not, or whether it is recommended by any on this forum, you have to establish whether you have a defense... If you don't have a defense then the process you choose is not going to lower or change your potential of losing and being convicted. So while it might seem like its a process where declarations get rubber stamped, the better likelihood is that those declarations lacked the substance to qualify them for anything different than a rubber stamp.
In reality you are far too deep into being guilty than you are close to prevailing. In other words, and even if the 25 mph limit was set by way of a survey and pursuant to 40802, the 25 mph would then be the "official prima facie limit" which would obviously make it the "safe speed" for the segment of roadway where you were cited. And subsequently, you were cited for exceeding that safe speed by 13 mph... How do you plane to convince the judge that your speed was safe when in fact it has been predetermined that the safe speed is 25 mph?
Oh, and once you elect a TBD, you no longer have a claim to a 45 day speedy trial.
Re: Using a Speed Trap Defense for a 25 MPH Zone
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That Guy
Why is the limit posted at 25mph? School Zone (see 22352(b)(2))? Residential district (See 22352(b)(1))? Business district(See 22352(b)(1) as well)? Is it near a senior center (See 22352(b)(3)) or a public park (see 22357.1)?
Speed traps would not apply to any of those cases. Simply because all those zones require a 25 mph limit are statutory speed limits and the great likelihood in all of those cases is that the speed limit was not determined by way of a survey, instead, it was simply posted by looking at abutting property and establishing that 25 mph limit by statute.
This, in my opinion is properly indented CVC 40802. Just don't worry about the different colors, I was explaining how those subsections apply to different circumstances none of which apply here.
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...dentations.jpg
(Assuming you answered "yes" to any of the "is it" questions I asked above, that would then be the reason that this segment of roadway would not fall under the scope of 40802(b), for 2 reasons: (1) because none of the code sections I cited above as the authority behind each 25 mph limit is listed under 40802(a)(2), and/or (2) because of those locations are excluded under other subparagraohs under 40802.
Whether the 5 year, 7 year or 10 year provisions apply is dependent upon the date the most recent survey was conducted. In this case, and if any of the conditions (abutting properties) are as described, then you won't find a survey/
Well, if it is a statutory speed limit, then by "functional definition" a 25 mph limit is what the law requires it to be... And therefore it is not low or high but exactly where it must be!
Definitely not a school zone or senior center, nor residential. I don't see "business district" defined. There are businesses along the road. I would think that city zoning shows it as being business but virtually all of the city will either be zoned business of residential. Of note between where I was clocked and where I was stopped, about 825 feet, the speed limit goes from 25 to 35 and the density of businesses is about the same, if anything more business in the 35MPH portion. In fact I was under the 35MPH sign when getting the ticket.
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If a survey does exist you can easily obtain it from the city's public works department. And without the provisions of CVC 40802 applying there are no statutory requirements for Radar/Laser training or for calibration. But you can request those from the citing agency.
So if I understand you and the indented portion of CVC40802, there is no speed trap defense if a "business district"? How many businesses does it take to make a "district" and where is this defined? I've seen fruit stands which are a business along 55MPH highways.
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Before you can decide whether its a rubber stamping process or not, or whether it is recommended by any on this forum, you have to establish whether you have a defense... If you don't have a defense then the process you choose is not going to lower or change your potential of losing and being convicted. So while it might seem like its a process where declarations get rubber stamped, the better likelihood is that those declarations lacked the substance to qualify them for anything different than a rubber stamp.
In reality you are far too deep into being guilty than you are close to prevailing. In other words, and even if the 25 mph limit was set by way of a survey and pursuant to 40802, the 25 mph would then be the "official prima facie limit" which would obviously make it the "safe speed" for the segment of roadway where you were cited. And subsequently, you were cited for exceeding that safe speed by 13 mph... How do you plane to convince the judge that your speed was safe when in fact it has been predetermined that the safe speed is 25 mph?
Oh, and once you elect a TBD, you no longer have a claim to a 45 day speedy trial.
OK, that's the question I asked. It seems that TBD first and then trial de novo is often the recommended course.
When I saw the police motorcycle behind me with lights on I looked at my speedometer and it read 34, this was very close to the 35MPH sign. I'm not necessarily disputing the laser reading of 38, I don't think I was decelerating so likely around 35.
But...
The motorcycle cop had to put away the laser, start his bike, merge into traffic, and catch up to me in order to pull me over. And he managed to do all of this presumably in a safe and prudent manner given the weather, width and condition of the roadway, etc. so it couldn't have been THAT dangerous.
Re: Using a Speed Trap Defense for a 25 MPH Zone
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speeder38
Definitely not a school zone or senior center, nor residential. I don't see "business district" defined. There are businesses along the road.
Business district is defined under CVC 235 and residence district is defined under CVC 515. And if some cities were to choose not to conduct surveys thereby not increasing the many 25 limit districts to the 30, 35, 40... etc, then they would be justified in not only keeping those stretches at the 25 mph limits mentioned and they would be well justified in enforcing such limit.
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speeder38
I would think that city zoning shows it as being business but virtually all of the city will either be zoned business of residential.
This is completely different than city zoning!
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speeder38
Of note between where I was clocked and where I was stopped, about 825 feet, the speed limit goes from 25 to 35
Well, then you were stil 825 feet from where the 35 mph speed limit starts. I didn't decide where the 35 mph limit started. I was simply explaining to you that by law, the 25 mph limits are usually codified under the code sections I cited for each.
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speeder38
In fact I was under the 35MPH sign when getting the ticket.
You were not cited for your speed at the time he lit you up, nor at the time you finally stopped... In fact your speed "when getting the ticket" was ZERO, wasn't it?
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speeder38
I've seen fruit stands which are a business along 55MPH highways.
And your point is what? That you can ignore a speed limit sign and instead decide safe and prudent speed based on how many fruit stands you see? The problem with your theory there is that you do not have the authority to decide what the speed limit should be, whereas the city does. So if they choose to conduct a survey on one roadway and by following the procedures they can establish a 55 mph limit, and post signs notifying drivers of the same, then you are free to drive through at 55 mph. Otherwise, you are restricted to whatever speed limit the law sets for that particular classification.
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speeder38
OK, that's the question I asked. It seems that TBD first and then trial de novo is often the recommended course.
Actually it might get mentioned often but does not necessarily mean it is often the recommended choice.
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speeder38
The motorcycle cop had to put away the laser, start his bike, merge into traffic, and catch up to me in order to pull me over. And he managed to do all of this presumably in a safe and prudent manner given the weather, width and condition of the roadway, etc. so it couldn't have been THAT dangerous.
And you're free to make that argument in court.... Personally, I don't think the judge will consider that as a valid defense simply because it does not change the fact that you wee clocked at 38 mph. So you would still, by definition, be guilty.
Re: Using a Speed Trap Defense for a 25 MPH Zone
You are permitted to make an affirmative defense argument in court arguing that your speed was safe for the conditions that were present. But, the burden of proof falls upon YOU in such a case. Because you exceeded the posted limit, and if this was a "business district" with a prima facie limit of 25 MPH, then you are automatically guilty if the judge or commissioner believes you exceeded that speed.
It might be difficult to convince a judge that traveling at 50% over the posted limit was "safe," but, if you can argue a lack of pedestrians, traffic, cross traffic, time of day, visibility, etc. - and the officer has no observations and testimony to refute this - then you MIGHT prevail. It's a long shot.
Keep in mind that if you take the matter to trial you might lose out on the opportunity to attend traffic school and thus mitigate the point on your license (which, if not removed, will almost certainly raise your insurance rates). Many courts do not allow the TS that option available after a court trial, and I have heard very few stories of people being permitted TS after losing a TBWD. But, every court is different.
Re: Using a Speed Trap Defense for a 25 MPH Zone
It doesn't appear to meet the criteria of a business district under CVC 235. See linked photo. I was traveling from left to right in the photo. The red line is a 600-foot ruler drawn on Google Earth. The yellow line shows where I was stopped. The large building left of where the cop was hiding isn't "fronting" the street, it's set back over 150 feet with a lawn and small gazebo and it isn't a business but a government center. Even if it were counted as both fronting and a business, the building percentage is 46%.
My "fruit stand" example wasn't an attempt to be nasty, but a lack of knowledge that "business district" was defined in CVC. There's no reason to be hostile, I'm trying to learn here. http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...psa67f0a57.jpg
Re: Using a Speed Trap Defense for a 25 MPH Zone
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speeder38
It doesn't appear to meet the criteria of a business district under CVC 235. See linked photo.
Looking at the photo I don't see any obvious residences. It appears to be most if not all commercial property. You also have to look at the other side of the street, too - not just the south side.
235. A "business district" is that portion of a highway and the
property contiguous thereto (a) upon one side of which highway, for a
distance of 600 feet, 50 percent or more of the contiguous property
fronting thereon is occupied by buildings in use for business, or (b)
upon both sides of which highway, collectively, for a distance of
300 feet, 50 percent or more of the contiguous property fronting
thereon is so occupied. A business district may be longer than the
distances specified in this section if the above ratio of buildings
in use for business to the length of the highway exists.
Re: Using a Speed Trap Defense for a 25 MPH Zone
Here's the google location
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Go...ca44c500884d58
Looks like a business district to me.
Re: Using a Speed Trap Defense for a 25 MPH Zone
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speeder38
My "fruit stand" example wasn't an attempt to be nasty
I never suggested it was nasty. There is no doubt though that it was your way of suggesting that it was silly of me to offer the possibility that it could be, amongst other possibilities, a business district. And what do I know... As it turns out, that is exactly what it is... A business district!
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speeder38
but a lack of knowledge that "business district" was defined in CVC.
And I was the one who provided you with a source where the definition is...
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speeder38
There's no reason to be hostile, I'm trying to learn here.
Where was I being hostile? Again, I provided you with a source where you can look up the definition, I offered you an explanation as to how speed limits are set under these circumstances and I explained to you why your fruit stand example had little to no relevance on how the sped limit is set. All that to teach you and to provide you with the knowledge you claim to be here seeking and instead of a "thank you" I am the hostile one?
Well, if asking questions to attempt to clarify something to you is being hostile, then here is more unintended hostility...
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speeder38
I was traveling from left to right in the photo. The red line is a 600-foot ruler drawn on Google Earth.
OK...
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speeder38
The yellow line shows where I was stopped.
How could the yellow line show where you were stopped when in fact, the yellow line represents a stretch that is over 800 feet of distance? What were you driving? A train?
Also, in your first post you stated you were stopped 825 feet from the 35mph speed limit sign? In your picture, you marked the east end of the yellow line as being the location of the 35 mph speed limit sign? So what significance does the yellow line represent in your case? None!
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speeder38
The large building left of where the cop was hiding isn't "fronting" the street, it's set back over 150 feet with a lawn and small gazebo and it isn't a business but a government center.
Where did you get the basis that 150 feet isn't fronting? Because the same source that defines fronting as: "its entrance faces the highway and the front of the building is within 75 feet of the roadway" also tells you that all churches, apartments, hotels, multiple dwelling houses, clubs, and public buildings, other than schools, shall be deemed to be business structures public building for the purposes of determining whether the highway runs through a business district. That being CVC 240
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speeder38
a lawn and small gazebo and it isn't a business but a government center. Even if it were counted as both fronting and a business, the building percentage is 46%.
Well, a small gazebo is a structure... It actually counts as a structure fronting the highway, it actually does count and should be included on the basis that it is a public building, and as such would qualify as a business structure. So if you choose to include it as a structure it does count. If you choose to exclude it, it does not count but would not negatively impact the percentage at all because it does not count.
Moving back westbound within your red zone, I see "Alphie's Restaurant" which is a business structure, I see an"International Travel" which I presume is a travel agency, a business, immediately adjacent to that is a "Launch Point Technologies", yet another business; and west from there I see I see a Goleta Health Center, a Computer Doctor and I see an Allstate insurance all three of which are businesses occupying what has got to be a business structure. Going further westbound, I see some sort of restaurant although there does not appear to be any sign, and immediately adjacent to that, is an Auto - Truck - 4X4 Accessory store, which again would qualify as a business structure. This makes it 100% business structures. If you would prefer to exclude the gazebo then it still remains to be at 100% business structures. Would you like to include structures from across the street? For the entire 600 foot distance? You're still at 100% business districts. How about if we cut that to 300 feet and include structures that are there as well? It still is 100% business structures...
And yet, you came up with 46%? Maybe I am missing something but I don't see how you can come up with 46%... Maybe you could explain to me how you got 46%?
At any rate, you can make what ever conclusions you feel should apply. I doubt the judge is going to sit there to explain his perspective to you the way I did. Instead, he is likely to assume that the city public works department did whatever assessments and did them correctly and that the speed limit, fact still remains that the survey will exist only if the regulatory authority had decided to raise that speed limit from 25 mph to some other limit. The fact that the speed limit is still at 25 mph simply means a speed trap argument does not apply which in essence means you are fighting a citation where all the cop has to testify to is that you exceeded the speed limit, all the evidence he needs is his testimony to that allegation and you will very likely be convicted.
Alternatively, you can protect yourself from having the conviction appear on your driving record but you'll have to choose to pay the fine as well as the traffic school administrative fee to the court, sign up for traffic school and submit the completion certificate in a timely manner.