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What Conduct Will Violate a Civil Protection Order

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  • 02-28-2014, 09:58 AM
    PapiPG
    What Conduct Will Violate a Civil Protection Order
    My question involves restraining orders in the State of: Ohio

    Such a wealth of information and guidance you provide here. This site is a great find! Thanks!

    I'm vaguely familiar with CPO's, TPO's and such, but I'm ignorant of some nuances of situations where there is the potential for something tragic to occur.

    Current GF of nearly a year has extricated herself from a 10 year non-spousal cohabiting situation that included emotional and physical abuse. 2 children are involved, but have not been a part of any abuse. Only the mother.

    August 2013 GF obtained a CPO against the ex, and order stated: "...for reasons we believe the petitioner is and has been a past victim of domestic violence and abuse..." (based on previous CPO's filed) and indicated presently "behavior tantamount to stalking and menacing which necessitates this order.." You get the gist of it. He's apparently had CPO's filed, enforced, then expired on a couple of occasions. She's presently protected until August 2014.

    * Never married
    * She has sole custody
    * He has visitation 2/days a week and then alternating weekends.
    * Only communicate via Family Wizard.
    * He's permitted to visit children during school hours, stop by church Daycare, attend extracurricular events, as long as he remains 15 feet away from her and say nothing other than "...a cordial hello"

    I've never heard of such an arrangement, and consider this to be a liberal magistrate, but I can see how one wouldn't want to create a situation where there would be limited access to the children during extra-curricular. I'm trying to be open-minded here, I guess.

    Since CPO has been put in place, he has:

    A. Sent representatives to drop things in her mailbox, unsolicited. Response via Family Wizard: Who do you think you are? People can come to your house if they want. I supposed since we "violated" your mailbox, it had been better if we threw the things on your lawn. Get over yourself! Is this a violation/contempt?

    B. Showed up in the wee hours of the morning to drop off things and leave messages on doorstop, unsolicited. Is this a violation/contempt? Response via Family Wizard: This whole thing is ridiculous. I don't care about your CPO or your broken down house Is this a violation/contempt?

    C. Showed up with a moving truck to pick up items she agreed to give him, but only if he sent 3rd parties, per an arrangement with an attorney. Is this a violation/contempt? Response via Family Wizard: "My other buddies couldn't make it, and so I had to find another way to do it. Get over yourself with this BS CPO" Is this a violation/contempt?

    D. Threatened to kick my ass (via Family Wizard) if he ever found out I spanked his children. I never have and will spank anyone's children. I don't believe in that, but SHE does and HE doesn't, which was apparently an issue between them when they were together. If they become my step-children, maybe. Big IF, here. Is this a violation/contempt?

    It's my opinion that her passive past nature has him thinking that she's till under his rule, because he regularly provokes, insults, demeans, and belittles her via Family Wizard.

    We did try to get him served for contempt, but he kept dodging service. The magistrate was like "..of course you do realize what's going on here, he's not fooling anybody, but I am unable to rule on anything without proof of him being served". His neighbors did say that he was at home a couple of times the Sheriff showed up.

    It's my understanding though that you don't have to answer the door or accept service if you don't want, so apparently that's what he did.

    My objective is not to come here and characterize this person, because I'm certain it will be considered as bias, but her ex is bad news. His past behaviors (arrests, CPO's, rejection of authority, and blatant contempt of CPO) have me concerned.

    So for example, we WERE to get married..he would not be permitted to my house, on my property, nor is he of the character of people that I'd associate with unless I were doing so in some sort of religious missionary ministering (trying not to bring religion here) capacity. He's an unrepentant abusive man, with extremely poor boundaries and lack of empathy and respect for authority, the law, and people. Whether he'd try and kill this woman, I'm not sure, but I do consider him dangerous - only because of his lack or remorse for past deeds and brazen attitude and behavior now - which may not mean much legally at this time.

    I'm not in fear, personally, though I had to testify in the last CPO hearing because I witnessed some very distressing behaviors on his part. It's touchy because physically I would destroy this man, but I'm in love with this woman, and I'd never want these precious little girls to look at me and be like "Papi beat up our Daddy". Not to mention it's ungodly and unseemly to be fighting people at my age.

    Part of me is considering bouncing, but..you know...being in love and junk. These girls need a godly upright man in their life, not this emotionally arrested, intellectually dull and spiritual commoner as their only positive male role model. I don't want to be their Dad, just help their mom guide them into a life of fullness and righteousness.

    Please forgive me if any of my statements above seem unwarranted and petty...I'm not an attorney.

    I'd like to see her get the CPO extended to another couple of years..or at least until after/if we got married. I'd also like to have any and all communication done via Family Wizard indefinitely.

    Visitation is fine when he decides to pick them up. He recently decided he didn't want to be bothered...for a while. Up til this week, he hadn't seen the girls since Thanksgiving. He said until she agrees to get his child support reduced, then he'll get the girls whenever he could unless she and (me) wanted to just take over, and he'll move out of the state because this whole thing is BS.

    I suppose after we married, I'd be more in a legal and appropriate position to deal with things on her behalf. Right now, I'm just the helpless clueless boyfriend trying not to get to deeply involved in all this business as I'm not her husband.

    She calls him the village idiot who picks fights in bars with the biggest guy and ends up laid out on the floor. I have issues with such characterizations because his behavior is more grave and serious than that, I believe she's coped with it by minimizing it all these years. He's going to get himself and someone hurt, or killed.


    Thoughts? (About possible contempt) This is long...sorry.

    Thanks!
  • 02-28-2014, 02:10 PM
    aardvarc
    Re: What Conduct Will Violate a Civil Protection Order
    Quote:

    Quoting PapiPG;789098 I'm ignorant of some nuances of situations where there is the [B
    potential[/B] for something tragic to occur.

    In any relationship where one side is willing to take tragic actions, there is potential for something tragic to occur, whether there is a string of incidents and court orders, or not. God gives us the gift of fear as a mechanism to help keep us alive. If you feel "hinky" about something and their potential behavior, then you'd be wise to listen to your gut. It will keep you and your loved ones alive a lot longer than any piece of paper will.


    Quote:

    I've never heard of such an arrangement
    Actually, the arrangement you describe is pretty standard.



    Quote:

    A. Sent representatives to drop things in her mailbox, unsolicited. Response via Family Wizard: Who do you think you are? People can come to your house if they want. I supposed since we "violated" your mailbox, it had been better if we threw the things on your lawn. Get over yourself! Is this a violation/contempt?
    Might be. The bigger question is this: how is she going to PROVE in court that he SENT them? As with most protection order enforcement issues, YOU might know he sent them, I might know he sent them, and even the judge may feel in his gut that he sent them...but the burden before the court is going to deprive someone of their freedoms rests on PROVING the issue. Are these representatives willing to stand up in front of a judge and admit under oath that they were sent?


    Quote:

    B. Showed up in the wee hours of the morning to drop off things and leave messages on doorstop, unsolicited. Is this a violation/contempt?
    Again, probably...how will she prove this? Got pics of him there? If so can she prove those pics were taken on the day in question, have been unaltered, etc.? Who witnessed him there doing this, and will their testimony have credibility before the court?


    Quote:

    C. Showed up with a moving truck to pick up items she agreed to give him, but only if he sent 3rd parties, per an arrangement with an attorney. Is this a violation/contempt?
    See above answers. When he showed up with the truck, did she immediately summon police to the scene?




    Quote:

    Response via Family Wizard: "My other buddies couldn't make it, and so I had to find another way to do it. Get over yourself with this BS CPO" Is this a violation/contempt?
    It's not a full out confession, if that's what you're asking. He only says "another way", not "I came to the home"


    Quote:

    D. Threatened to kick my ass (via Family Wizard) if he ever found out I spanked his children.
    It's not going to be treated as an assault by police, and unless the protection order applies to you, it can't, by definition, be a violation.


    Quote:

    It's my opinion that her passive past nature has him thinking that she's till under his rule, because he regularly provokes, insults, demeans, and belittles her via Family Wizard.
    Unfortunately, him being Jackass of the Year isn't going to bother the court much. The court cares about whether its orders are being followed regarding the HOWs of contact, and if any violations can be proven.


    Quote:

    We did try to get him served for contempt, but he kept dodging service. The magistrate was like "..of course you do realize what's going on here, he's not fooling anybody, but I am unable to rule on anything without proof of him being served". His neighbors did say that he was at home a couple of times the Sheriff showed up.
    Then it may be time to look into having a private process server do the job, rather than the sheriff's office. They don't have the time or resources to devote 24/7 and much effort beyond knocking on the door. Private servers however are willing to go to much greater and creative depths to get the job done. Find out if private service is acceptable in your area then hire one with experience and street smarts.


    Quote:

    It's my understanding though that you don't have to answer the door or accept service if you don't want, so apparently that's what he did.
    Every state's rules are different. In some states, it can be secured to the door or left with another person (ie spouse or roommate). In other states, service must be made in person, and if he's willing to ignore knocks on the door, he could potentially evade service by the sheriff's office till the cows come home. Which is why a private server can be worth every penny.


    Quote:

    So for example, we WERE to get married..he would not be permitted to my house, on my property, nor is he of the character of people that I'd associate with unless I were doing so in some sort of religious missionary ministering (trying not to bring religion here) capacity. He's an unrepentant abusive man, with extremely poor boundaries and lack of empathy and respect for authority, the law, and people. Whether he'd try and kill this woman, I'm not sure, but I do consider him dangerous - only because of his lack or remorse for past deeds and brazen attitude and behavior now - which may not mean much legally at this time.
    He'd not be permitted, but only because SHE has a protection order in place. You being married to her wouldn't change that, nor would it automatically make the order apply to you as an individual (for example he could initiate contact with you away from her residence at any time in any place so long as SHE wasn't with you.


    Quote:

    I would destroy this man, but I'm in love with this woman, and I'd never want these precious little girls to look at me and be like "Papi beat up our Daddy". Not to mention it's ungodly and unseemly to be fighting people at my age.
    Not to mention you'd be of little help to her from behind bars for battery.



    Quote:

    I'd like to see her get the CPO extended to another couple of years..or at least until after/if we got married. I'd also like to have any and all communication done via Family Wizard indefinitely.
    Perfectly reasonable. But if she's going to bother HAVING such an order, it's just as important to be able to DOCUMENT any violations of that order...whether that's by immediately summoning police who can act not only as independent witnesses of his presence in violation of the order, but may also immediately arrest on that violation, or whether she keeps disposeable cameras around the house or in her purse to document violations, or puts up surveilance cameras, or, asks her local law enforcement, friends, neighbors, etc. to keep an extra eye out around the home, or whatever. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that a large portion of protection orders are violated in some way (often with the acquiesence of the victim), however, only about half are ever pursued or brought back before the court or acted upon with additional sanctions (ie arrest/incarceration of the offender) because of lack of proof/documentation. THAT is the key.



    Quote:

    He said until she agrees to get his child support reduced,
    Apparantly he doesn't realize that it isn't entirely up to her. Only a judge can take away or modify a CHILD's right to support, even if the parents both want it.


    Quote:

    then he'll get the girls whenever he could unless she and (me) wanted to just take over, and he'll move out of the state because this whole thing is BS.
    Then once you and mom have been married for a bit, it sounds like dad may be willing to bless a step parent adoption.


    Quote:

    I suppose after we married, I'd be more in a legal and appropriate position to deal with things on her behalf.
    Not really, no. The restraining order would still only apply to her (and the children under whatever is spelled out in the order). You'd need to either have her order amended to include you, or to seek an order of your own - understanding that the court is going to want there to have been instances or incidents where his actions put YOU in fear.


    Quote:

    He's going to get himself and someone hurt, or killed.
    Then it's vital that everyone involved take the situation seriously and act accordingly. The family needs to be working on a personal safety plan. You can get free assistance with this from your local domestic violence program - they will have access to things and programs not available from "outside" - things like alarm programs, motion sensor light programs, self defense training, or whatever other resources might be available in your area (every area is different).
  • 02-28-2014, 03:29 PM
    PapiPG
    Re: What Conduct Will Violate a Civil Protection Order
    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    In any relationship where one side is willing to take tragic actions, there is potential for something tragic to occur, whether there is a string of incidents and court orders, or not. God gives us the gift of fear as a mechanism to help keep us alive. If you feel "hinky" about something and their potential behavior, then you'd be wise to listen to your gut. It will keep you and your loved ones alive a lot longer than any piece of paper will.

    Indeed. I'm working on it. I'm a firm believer in strict boundaries, and I'm not interested in taking over this woman's life. But she choose me, for my intellectual, physical, and emotional strength, and assures she not gaming to have a guy around she knows her ex won't mess with.

    To make a longer story shorter, every time he did something contemptous, we asked him via Family Wizard why he did such and such. Because he has so little self control, he'd respond brazenly and affirmatively. He even wrote that it was the "..father of a colleague who..." "...violated your mailbox..".
    We also have photos...

    When he came with the truck, we videotaped, and his dumb arse actually didn't care. The only reason we didn't call the cops is because this has all been traumatic for the girls, all the neighborhood children were out in front of the house, and we just wanted to give him his crap and be done with it. But make no mistake, we had the videotape ready for court, had we been able to serve him.

    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    It's not going to be treated as an assault by police, and unless the protection order applies to you, it can't, by definition, be a violation.

    I assumed as much, but I'm often surprised by what magistrates do.

    For example, the day he took her to court to request a support modification, he followed me into the men's bathroom, and said, "I'm telling you, I'm done playing nice, I'm about to play hardball". And as soon as I said, "hey, you have to do what you have to do..." the sheriff, who saw him follow me... walked in and gave us both a warning.

    I mentioned it to the bailiff and he asked if the officers outside heard what the ex said to me, and I told him that I didn't think so. He noted, "..because if he did, I've got him on contempt, finally". The reason he said, "finally"...is because at the previous hearing, her ex took out his cameraphone and started following her around taking photos. The sheriff seized his phone and deleted the photos of her, myself and he attorney. When the sheriff asked him why he would do such a thing he said, "just capturing the moment".

    So if I'm not protected by the order at all, I'm curious as to why the bailiff felt he had him on contempt. I'm inclined to think they can find ways to get you, if they want. This is why people need to know how to behave.

    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    Then it may be time to look into having a private process server do the job, rather than the sheriff's office. They don't have the time or resources to devote 24/7 and much effort beyond knocking on the door. Private servers however are willing to go to much greater and creative depths to get the job done. Find out if private service is acceptable in your area then hire one with experience and street smarts.

    I agree. Here is her concern. She really needs child support. If she has him served at his job (which even the magistrate said can open a can of worms) he might get fired and then there goes her child support. Crappy circumstance indeed.

    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    He'd not be permitted, but only because SHE has a protection order in place. You being married to her wouldn't change that, nor would it automatically make the order apply to you as an individual (for example he could initiate contact with you away from her residence at any time in any place so long as SHE wasn't with you.

    I get that, and I've no doubt he'd start crap if he saw her away from the house. I guess my point was that I don't run with incorrigible, unrepentant men, and so (whether you're the ex baby daddy or whatever), you need to stay out of my sight or I will call the cops, and draw up a manifesto to provide to all the neighbors, teachers, coaches, and preachers at the church (with relevant supporting proofs) that you're bad seed. Stay off my street, out of my neighborhood, and away from my house. There is and would never be any reason for you to be there. All pick ups and drop offs are done at the school for visitation. If you want to pick them up at the house the answer is no. If you want to drop them off at the house the answer is no. Follow the order and do the pick ups and drop offs according to the order. If you want a break on any of those things - ever - repent and prove yourself contrite and trustworthy enough for anything else.

    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    Not to mention you'd be of little help to her from behind bars for battery.

    No doubt. I'd prefer to use my resources to shame him into repentance - or just get lost altogether. We have to pray over their little spirits when we drop them off, and pray over them when we pick them up.

    But what I'll never do is partake in her to refusing to allow the girls to have a relationship with the man, especially as he's not shown to be abusive to them in any form. Even a contemptible man-child should be able to see his children.

    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    Perfectly reasonable. But if she's going to bother HAVING such an order, it's just as important to be able to DOCUMENT any violations of that order...whether that's by immediately summoning police who can act not only as independent witnesses of his presence in violation of the order, but may also immediately arrest on that violation, or whether she keeps disposeable cameras around the house or in her purse to document violations, or puts up surveilance cameras, or, asks her local law enforcement, friends, neighbors, etc. to keep an extra eye out around the home, or whatever. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that a large portion of protection orders are violated in some way (often with the acquiesence of the victim), however, only about half are ever pursued or brought back before the court or acted upon with additional sanctions (ie arrest/incarceration of the offender) because of lack of proof/documentation. THAT is the key.

    So true. I am repairing her alarm system, and my buddy is going to help install cameras. Also drafting up a manifesto (as I wrote earlier) to give to members of the community and providers of their care.

    The day he showed up with the truck, we had a rather intense discussion about whether to call the cops, or just let him have his stuff, to purge the house of the remnants of his malignant spirit. We opted to videotape and get his stuff out. I have mixed feelings about that choice, in all candor.

    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    Apparantly he doesn't realize that it isn't entirely up to her. Only a judge can take away or modify a CHILD's right to support, even if the parents both want it.

    True..he asked the judge, "well who can I escalate this matter to that's above you". The judge told him to get the hell out of his courtroom. Bizarre stuff...simply bizarre.

    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    Then once you and mom have been married for a bit, it sounds like dad may be willing to bless a step parent adoption.

    He's sent 3 emails via Family Wizard saying bye bye, you're humiliating me, this is no way to communicate, you're not a team player...so you and PapiPG can have it. 3 times, and within 2 weeks another note saying he changed his mind. Bizarre.

    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    Not really, no. The restraining order would still only apply to her (and the children under whatever is spelled out in the order). You'd need to either have her order amended to include you, or to seek an order of your own - understanding that the court is going to want there to have been instances or incidents where his actions put YOU in fear.

    I guess I could get myself added to hers after a wedding took place. I can't rightly say I'm in fear that he'd kick my ass because that wouldn't happen, but hell - he could try to run me down with his car or sneak up behind me and crack me with a bat or something. He gets those crazy eyes sometimes. LOL.

    Quote:

    Quoting aardvarc
    View Post
    Then it's vital that everyone involved take the situation seriously and act accordingly. The family needs to be working on a personal safety plan. You can get free assistance with this from your local domestic violence program - they will have access to things and programs not available from "outside" - things like alarm programs, motion sensor light programs, self defense training, or whatever other resources might be available in your area (every area is different). You can get a head start on your safety plan here:

    You know what I've been considering? Getting a woman's rights/abuse advocate to help us with this.

    Again, I'd prefer that he not be prohibited from seeing his children. But what is needed is that his direct access to her is strictly limited to the Family Wizard. Tell me if you think I'm off, but I think that if we got a 3-5 year CPO/TPO, it would be long enough for him to have moved on and focused solely on himself without being concerned about her lack of accessibility to him and not having her to harass or abuse. His seemingly narcissistic tendencies coupled with her past enabling has created a very touchy circumstance.

    We've befriended a woman, Tina Swithin, who has written extensively about divorcing and dealing with narcissistic ex partners and all the legal, emotional and spiritual nuances of that situation. So if you encounter anyone with issues like that, her Blog is http://www.onemomsbattle.com.
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