Cut Off While Approaching a Red Light, Resulting in a Rear-End Collision
My question involves a traffic accident in the State of: Missouri
Background before I get into it. I have full coverage and am driving a 2012 Eclipse. The driver is driving a 2010-12 Subaru sti hatch. I am from Missouri and this happened in saint louis.
I will include this picture to help explain my story. Purple car is my car. Blue car is his car. Brown car is already stopped at light. Black car is witness.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/811/bhqj.png
What happened.
I turn right onto the street on which the accident happen and so does the blue car. He is driving behind me by about a car length on the lane next to me. We start to approach at light that just turned red. ( The light is there because there is a elementary school right next to it ) There is already a car stopped on his lane ( brown car ). I ASSUME the other drive ( blue car ) did not notice that the light had just turned red and thought the car infront of his was making a left turn and assumed he could speed up and go around him because he speeds up right past me ( he speed up to maybe 40ish while I am beginning to make a stop from 35 mph ), right before he is a foot behind the car that is already stopped, and cuts me off switching my lane with only inches from hitting me switch lanes. While switching lanes I ASSUME he noticed the light was red and SLAMMED on his brakes leaving me no room to react as he was inches from my bumper from cutting me off. After this hit he pull off into parking lot and I pull into a different one. I get out of my car and notice a women shouting trying to catch my attention. I approach her and she tells me she saw the whole thing happen as she was waiting at a parking lot right across the street to start work. She tells me how she saw the blue car drive recklessly, cut me off and slam on his brakes.
EDIT: I would like to add that he did not use his signal when switching lanes and cutting me off.
I would like to know your inputs on whose at fault.
Please and thank you.
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
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Quoting
Euroking
My question involves a traffic accident in the State of: Missouri
Background before I get into it. I have full coverage and am driving a 2012 Eclipse. The driver is driving a 2010-12 Subaru sti hatch. I am from Missouri and this happened in saint louis.
I will include this picture to help explain my story. Purple car is my car. Blue car is his car. Brown car is already stopped at light. Black car is witness.
What happened.
I turn right onto the street on which the accident happen and so does the blue car. He is driving behind me by about a car length on the lane next to me. We start to approach at light that just turned red. ( The light is there because there is a elementary school right next to it ) There is already a car stopped on his lane ( brown car ). I ASSUME the other drive ( blue car ) did not notice that the light had just turned red and thought the car infront of his was making a left turn and assumed he could speed up and go around him because he speeds up right past me ( he speed up to maybe 40-50ish while I am beginning to make a stop from 35 mph ), right before he is a foot behind the car that is already stopped, and cuts me off switching my lane with only inches from hitting me switch lanes. While switching lanes I ASSUME he noticed the light was red and SLAMMED on his brakes leaving me no room to react as he was inches from my bumper from cutting me off. After this hit he pull off into parking lot and I pull into a different one. I get out of my car and notice a women shouting trying to catch my attention. I approach her and she tells me she saw the whole thing happen as she was waiting at a parking lot right across the street to start work. She tells me how she saw the blue car drive recklessly, cut me off and slam on his brakes.
EDIT: I would like to add that he did not use his signal when switching lanes and cutting me off.
I would like to know your inputs on whose at fault.
Please and thank you.
If he abruptly switched lanes and more so with out signalling, then he may be at fault for an illegal lane change. Whether that was the primary or even the only cause for the collision is anyone's guess. This is based on the way you describe how things happened. Of course as the case may usually be, he might have a slightly different version than yours. You never mentioned the location of the damage on either car and that is typically a critical factor in determining fault in cases like this. So if you can offer that information, you might get a slightly different answer.
For some reason or another, and while it is still possible that he cut you off, it appears that he was in front of you when you hit him. At least this is how it sounds from this part here:
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Euroking
... right before he is a foot behind the car that is already stopped, and cuts me off switching my lane with only inches from hitting me switch lanes. While switching lanes I ASSUME he noticed the light was red and SLAMMED on his brakes leaving me no room to react as he was inches from my bumper from cutting me off.
In other words if his car sustained damage on his rear bumper and your car sustained damage on your front bumper, he can easily claim that he was in the lane in front of you, and that you simply rear ended him.
This does not totally eliminate a possible third scenario that might present itself and it would go something like this: what are the chances that you too were racing, he ended up slightly ahead of you and thought he can maneuver into your lane and as he did, with you trying to prevent him from cutting you off, you read ended him.
You can correct me on this part but its no secret that the typical average Subaru STI driver in likely to be in his late teens, early 20s... Hot blooded and lead footed. And if I were to guess you might be in that same age group as well.
Question that begs itself is if you have full coverage, what difference does it make who's at fault? Worry about getting your car fixed and let your insurance do the job that you paid them to do!
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Euroking
Could you elaborate on maintain space? I was not given space to maintain because when he cut me off there was literally inches between me and his rear bumper. Aggressive driver? If the speed limit was 45 and he is doing something really close to that he did not become an aggressive driver till he cut me off.
I think based on your description, when you saw this part:
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Quoting Euroking
( he speed up to maybe 40ish while I am beginning to make a stop from 35 mph ), right before he is a foot behind the car that is already stopped, and cuts me off switching my lane with only inches from hitting me switch lanes.
You should have known or at least assumed that he was going to look for a space to go with the car in front of him stopped, and the only likely place was not going to be opposite traffic lanes, it would have to be your lane, and you should have backed off.. But instead, you ASSUMED he was thinking the car in front of him was turning left, you ASSUMED he had not seen the red light, but you went about your business as if he was not there.
Chances are, even if he did not cut you off and get into your lane and if instead, he would have hit the brown car at what you describe as a speed of approximately 40ish mph, and had you continued your forward movement ending up as first in your lane and immediately adjacent to the brown car, chances are you would have sustained some damage in that case as well, and hence the reason why you should have slowed down. This brings us back to the scenario where you too were racing and you were trying to block him from changing lanes only you ended up rear ending him. In that scenario, you would both share fault, him for racing and illegally changing lanes and you for racing and following too close.
As for your witness and the claim that she witnessed him driving recklessly, that I would attribute to him possibly having a louder car than yours and people often misconstrue a loud car for one that is being driven recklessly...
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
First I would like to say thank you for taking your time to give your input.
Her is pictures of the damage my car received.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/850/49b2.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/23/qyrw.jpg
You might be forget about the witness who saw it all happen in front of her. She was a manager at a local store and has credibility. She witnessed the Subaru driving recklassly and cut me off while I was driving at a safe speed and proper manner.
He received damage on his right right rear bumper, which on my eye proves he changed lanes and was not already in front of me since only my right side has been hit .
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
Then it clearly seem to put the liability on him based on the damages.
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
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That Guy
Question that begs itself is if you have full coverage, what difference does it make who's at fault? Worry about getting your car fixed and let your insurance do the job that you paid them to do!
Well if it is my fault my insurance premium will increase, correct? I he is at fault it will not? Sorry I have never need in a wreck before.
I was told not to contact my insurance company but rather file a claim with his.
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
I think TG will agree based on damages you were cut off.
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
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Euroking
He received damage on his right right rear bumper, which on my eye proves he changed lanes and was not already in front of me since only my right side has been hit .
Actually, saying his "right rear bumper" is inconsistent with the damage on your car, which appears to have been subject to some sheering force that was applied at the angle that your bumper was chopped off.
But yes, it is feasible that he did cut you off, but that would be too easy to claim. His statement will drastically vary from a "yes, I was going too fast, and decided to cut into the right lane without signalling or clearing that no one was there and he crashed into me"...
Also, "cutting you off' is subjective... Meaning, I could just as easily assume that he may have gained quite the distance on you and was in the process of changing lanes. As he approached the red light, he started to slow down and you started to catch up, eventually catching part of his right rear fender onto your left front fender and as he attempted to complete his lane change, he took part of your bumper with him.
The part that I am still struggling with, is you do state you saw him approaching the red signal and the car in front at a speed that was higher that he should have. And no, you are not required to clear the way for him but a reasonable driver would have backed off long before the collision. Again,. it does not mean you should have backed off, it simply means you could have backed off.
EDITED TO ADD: And to further add to this, because you were the driver further to the rear, this gave you the opportunity to at least attempt to avoid the accident. Whether the possibility to do so was slim or great, under the theory of "last clear chance" (which is the same as "contributory negligence"), you do carry some liability for the collision under a theory that you could have slowed down or stopped. If it ends up that the other insurer is willing to concede and accept full fault for the entire incident, might be a generous move on their part.
Let me also qualify my comments by saying that I am not too familiar with Missouri laws in this area and am simply going by what I know.
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Euroking
You might be forget about the witness who saw it all happen in front of her. She was a manager at a local store and has credibility. She witnessed the Subaru driving recklassly and cut me off while I was driving at a safe speed and proper manner.
Credibility is one matter... Expertise and valid testimony is another. Example.. Would you not admit that his car may be louder than yours?
Even if that isn't true, ask your witness to estimate your speed and his speed... She'll probably say "I don't know" or blurt out some random number.
Ask her for the legal definition of "reckless driving" she'll probably say 'I don't know" or somehow relate it to speed but speeding alone doe not mean reckless driving!
And you never addressed my statement about a possibility that you too were racing! Not even an "no, we were not racing"...
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
Yes I hit his back rear bumper as he was switching lanes. So imagine the force of me hitting him and his rear bumper pushing/smashing into my front bumper.
When he switched lanes he crossed the no switching line .... I don't really know what it is called but its the solid line on the road instead of the smaller ones that are separated. Does that not count for anything?
I did did not notice the driver coming up behind me as I was not looking behind me when approaching a red light. I only noticed him right when he was on my side and cutting me off. I DID brake as hard as I could to avoid hitting him, but he was so close that it honestly did not matter if I braked or not the outcome would have been the same.
I appologize about not addressing your statement about racing. I was 7:50 in the morning and I was heading the work. That last thing that was on my mind was me racing him on my way to work.
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
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Euroking
Yes I hit his back rear bumper as he was switching lanes. So imagine the force of me hitting him and his rear bumper pushing/smashing into my front bumper.
Sorry, and while you are free to stick to your story, it simply makes no sense at all. But what do I know.... For your car to sustain the sort of damage it sustained, the impact into his car would have to be from your left front fender into his right rear fender. And as he continued to move to his right, that tore of the segment off of your bumper the way it appears in the picture.
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1e1a2e5f.jpg
You see the yellow arrows? And the grey/black stripes they are pointing to? Those stripes came from somewhere on his car.... And in the same diagonal direction that those stripes were marked, you also see the blue arrow and how it too is diagonal. The blue arrow represents the direction of the force that his car applied to yours upon impact. How do I know that? Th red circle represents a segment of your front bumper and left front fender that got chopped off due to the impact at the same moment he was moving into your lane.
This refutes one thing... That being that you rear ended him. And in confirms two other things. That he did cut you off (which is mind boggling that you would want to prove he cut you off and instead yet you keep repeating that you rear ended him); but it also gives rise to a presumption that you may have been trying to keep him out of your lane... SO as he passed you and tried to merge over, you fell behind, he ended up 3/4 of a car length ahead of you, he started to merge, his right rear fender caught your left front fender and the rest is history.... You can even tell that your wheel/tire caught some of the impact as well... Unless you are going to suggest that your wheel/tire turned 90 degrees to the right and hit his rear bumper when you "rear ended him"...
Had you hit his rear bumper as you describe, the part of the bumper that appears to be missing would likely still be there, only it will appear as if it were crushed (although with it being fiberglass it might crack in several spots).
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Euroking
When he switched lanes he crossed the no switching line .... I don't really know what it is called but its the solid line on the road instead of the smaller ones that are separated. Does that not count for anything?
If you are describing the white stripe lane marker which I circled in red...
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5a1aa44c.jpg
... Then no, that does not count for anything! I am not aware of any prohibition to cross that line.
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Euroking
I did did not notice the driver coming up behind me as I was not looking behind me when approaching a red light. I only noticed him right when he was on my side and cutting me off.
And unless you were intentionally trying to keep him out of your lane then the natural normal reaction to someone coming at you from the left is to brake and swerve right. Had you swerved right, your front left tire/wheel would not have gotten the hit it appears to have sustained.
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Euroking
I DID brake as hard as I could to avoid hitting him, but he was so close that it honestly did not matter if I braked or not the outcome would have been the same.
So you are saying you had no inclination to swerve right as he started to cut you off? You only hit your brakes on and kept going straight?
Well, then like I said above... Stick to your story and hopes his version somehow matches. Otherwise, both insurers will simply defer to their knowledge and expertise and they will end up fighting it out or going to arbitration (if that is the approved method in your state).
I could be completely 100% wrong about every thing I have stated... Or you could be thinking "how the heck does this guy know all that".... I will not accept anything in between today... It is all or nothing! You don't have to answer that, and I am not saying what I said to challenge you or antagonize you, but simply to let you know that your statements do not make sense, and an experienced insurance adjuster would read right through you... And yes, I also realize that you've probably already given your statement... But you still need to be careful.
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Euroking
I appologize about not addressing your statement about racing. I was 7:50 in the morning and I was heading the work. That last thing that was on my mind was me racing him on my way to work.
I was not asking for an apology... I was merely pointing out the fact that I thought it was an important question and you seemed to have ignored it. Answering it now makes little difference especially with what you offered as your reasoning...
Good luck and drive carefully!
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
Sorry my english isnt the best so you might not be understanding what I am saying happened. I did not say I rear ended him. What I am saying pretty much what you are saying. He cuts me off ... by attempting to come into my lane. While attempting to come into my lane he/me hit each other however you want to look at that. MY front bumper/fender hits his rear bumper...I do not know if you call the place I hit him fender but I believe it is still his rear bumper? here is a pic of where his damage was. http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/835/g4ae.jpg
The only damage my fender received was the small dent it put into it.... ALL the missing parts are my bumper nothing from my fender came off.
I Was not keeping him out of my lane. I was approaching a light that was red. There was no room to keep anyone out of anything? I feel ike you are assuming this was on a stretch of road and not at a red light.
Now when he switches lanes, upon impact he is pushing into me and I am slamming on my brakes. That is why the damage looks like that. I could not swerve to the right because one only thing to the right of me at the time was a ditch and I dont think anyone in the world couldve reacted in time to swerve BEFORE the impact.
Here is a picture if you still dont understand what im saying. http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/547/od8x.jpg
I have not yet spoken to any isurance company as it takes 7-10 days for me to buy the police report from the police department and find out what insurance company he had.
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
If the other driver admits that the collision happened when he was changing lanes into your lane, it's a slam dunk case. He's liable.
If the witness can testify that she saw him change lanes into your lane prior to the impact, that is strong evidence that you are not at fault.
If he did not use his blinker, that's bad too.
If there was not sufficient room for him to change lanes, bad for him.
If you saw him change lanes into you, you are not required to veer into a ditch. If you had done that and sustained damage, he would likely not be at fault for your damage. It would be your decision to bail off the road. It's better to let someone hit you rather than hit someone else and try to blame it him afterwards.
The white line leading into an intersection is a solid white line that invisibly extends through the intersection and reappears at the other side of the intersection crosswalk line. This line does not restrict lane changing, but it does make one more liable when an accident results when crossing it.
Your insurance company should be notified. You may be in non-compliance by not reporting it.
If the accident happened in your lane, and you have a witness to testify to that, he will likely be found at fault regardless of any made-up story on his part. But maybe you should be letting your insurance company argue this.
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
This is the police report statement and picture of what happened according the police report. On the police report it also states probable cause of accedent was improper lane usage/change.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/198/agpl.png
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/845/crxd.png
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
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Euroking
This is the police report statement and picture of what happened according the police report. On the police report it also states probable cause of accident was improper lane usage/change.
That's about as cut and dry as it gets.
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
So do you think his insurance will take responsibility for what happened?
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
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Euroking
So do you think his insurance will take responsibility for what happened?
It seems that with a Police Report like that the other insurance co. won't have a chance of weaseling out of responsibility. But insurance companies aren't exactly upstanding. That's why I say let your insurance co deal with them.
Re: Cut Off and Brakes Slammed While Making a Stop at Light
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Euroking
Sorry my english isnt the best so you might not be understanding what I am saying happened.
Oh, OK...
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Euroking
I did not say I rear ended him.
No you didn't... But when I asked you to describe the damages to your car and his car, your response was:
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He received damage on his right right rear bumper
That, to me, means the right half of the rear bumper. Which, to me means, that you hit him from the rear. But looking at your picture of damage to your car, that did not make sense. So I stated that your description did not appear to be consistent with the damage on your car, you replied with (pretty much the same thing you stated before):
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Quoting Euroking
I hit his back rear bumper as he was switching lanes.
Now we look at the police report and it describes the damage on his car as being:
V2 suffered "rear passenger bumper and quarter panel damage"
And that would have made a big difference. So no, I am not making assumptions. At least I am trying not to on points that you have been willing to provide information about. But since there are two involved parties, I have to assume that he is feeling the same way you are and wants to prevail. So I don't expect him to be 100% honest, and yet you shoulf not expect his insurer to believe every word you tell them all while they decide against their insured!
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Quoting Euroking
I do not know if you call the place I hit him fender
Oh... Right... Your English is bad...
This is even though in my 2nd post in this thread, I stated:
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Quoting That Guy
Also, "cutting you off' is subjective... Meaning, I could just as easily assume that he may have gained quite the distance on you and was in the process of changing lanes. As he approached the red light, he started to slow down and you started to catch up, eventually catching part of his right rear fender onto your left front fender and as he attempted to complete his lane change, he took part of your bumper with him.
Which really describes the exact same thing the police report describes. And in your response, this is when you again, only described his rear bumper and only your front bumper but mentioned nothing about either his fender or your fender:
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Quoting Euroking
Yes I hit his back rear bumper as he was switching lanes. So imagine the force of me hitting him and his rear bumper pushing/smashing into my front bumper.
So again, I was going by what you were posting...
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Quoting Euroking
I Was not keeping him out of my lane. I was approaching a light that was red.
I realize that you were approaching a red light... In fact, I highlighted my mentioning the red light in my 2nd post. ^You^ ^see^ ^it^? In red font?
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Quoting Euroking
There was no room to keep anyone out of anything? I feel ike you are assuming this was on a stretch of road and not at a red light.
Well, it was in a stretch of road, as you both approached a red light... Was it not?
In fact, HERE is a Google Maps image of the approach to that traffic light that you are claiming wasn't a "stretch of road".... I'd say that is a pretty nice stretch that two cars can certainly compete on!
But even if ?i am to agree with you that "it wasn't on a stretch of road, but instead, at a red light, it would then defy logic from another angle simply because if you were approaching a red light and were about to stop, you shouldn't need to wait for him to cut you off, or for you to hit each other before you were "slamming n your brakes". Instead, you should have been at a slow speed as you were preparing to stop. So you can continue to contend that you weren't racing, and/or that you weren't trying to keep him out, but based on some things you stated here, I would advise you to be real careful when you give your statement to the other insurer. Because here, you've had time to prepare your answers and your story still has holes (as you will see in a bit).... Imagine being on the phone and having the adjuster dropping questions on you one after another...
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Quoting Euroking
Now when he switches lanes, upon impact he is pushing into me..
And I explained that same scenario to you twice, and both times you returned to say "you hit his rear bumper"!
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Quoting Euroking
I could not swerve to the right because one only thing to the right of me at the time was a ditch...
There was? A DITCH?
And yet it appears that Google Maps shows no ditch. Was this the approach to the red light you were describing? If there was a "ditch" it would be avoidable as you swung to you right to avoid an accident. I am seeing what appears to be an emergency lane/shoulder which, while it might not be sufficient for the entire width of a car, you could have swerved to the right as I described...
More to this point, when I stated the following in my post:
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Quoting That Guy
The part that I am still struggling with, is you do state you saw him approaching the red signal and the car in front at a speed that was higher that he should have. And no, you are not required to clear the way for him but a reasonable driver would have backed off long before the collision. Again,. it does not mean you should have backed off, it simply means you could have backed off.
Your reply was:
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Quoting Euroking
I did did not notice the driver coming up behind me as I was not looking behind me when approaching a red light.
Yet in your first post, you stated:
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Quoting Euroking
He is driving behind me by about a car length on the lane next to me.
So first you said you saw him coming, then when pressed you said (sarcastically) that you weren't looking behind you... And when you found out it was a critical point, your claim became about a ditch when there is no ditch.
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Quoting Euroking
I have not yet spoken to any isurance company as it takes 7-10 days for me to buy the police report from the police department and find out what insurance company he had.
You mean you have not reported it to your insurance either? And you are assuming that his insurance is going to accept full liability?
You can believe whatever makes you comfortable. My initial reaction was that he made an illegal lane change and if that is what they decide too, then you should be OK. Alternatively, you might end up having them only accept part of the liability and with Missouri being a "Comparative Negligence" state when it comes to automobile insurance and fault assignment, you might end up seeing as high as 50% at fault. But it isn't reasonable to assume that his insurance might accept full blame when their insured's statement, weak as it may be, implies some negligence on your behalf!
Anyhow, understand that I have no vested interest here. I simply offered you an opinion based on the information you provided the way you provided it. If anything, now you know the weak points in your version of events and you'e free to sharpen those up or stick to the same story you told here!
Good luck!