Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: Washington, Snohomish County, Everett.
I'm new here and this is my first post. I apologize in advance if this is a bit long winded, but I felt it necessary to explain the circumstances of my predicament. There seems to be a lot of pretty smart folks here so I'm hoping to gain some perspective and maybe a legal recourse for fighting this ticket.
Last Wednesday I was on my way to the store when I approached an officer at a crosswalk stopping all traffic in both lanes (traffic was extremely heavy, as in bumper to bumper) at a crosswalk eastbound on West Casino road. Here's a map of the area.
The officer waved three cars in my lane through and hand gestured for me to pull over. I complied and was asked for my license, registration and proof of insurance. I complied. He went over to his motorcycle parked at the curb just behind me. A few minutes later he returned and handed me a citation for $271.00 for speeding in a school zone. He then showed me his SMD showing 34mph and told me he took the reading at 467 feet.
I asked him "isn't the speed limit 35 on this street? He replied yes but there's a flashing light down the street changing the speed to 20. I told him I didn't see the flashing sign. His reply (very condescending manner) was "There's two flashing warning signs on this street. How many warnings do you need!
Let me say this, I haven't had any motor vehicle violations in over 35 years. So here's the problem with this ticket.
First, I entered eastbound West Casino from a southbound side road Hardeson. Turning left (Eastbound) there's only one flashing sign approx 100 feet east of the intersection. There's a city bus stop right at that flashing sign. There was a bus waiting to pull into that stop but was prevented from doing so because there was a car stopped in that turnout spot (presumably dropping of someone to catch that bus). The traffic was very heavy and the car looked to be having trouble merging into traffic.
Behind the bus, was a tractor-trailer rig also stopped behind the bus totally blocking any view of the side of the road including the flashing signal.
Secondly, If a signaling device (sign) is obscured from view, is there any recourse or legal precedent that can be potentially argued with success? Case law, etc? I'm pretty knowledgeable about civil law but traffic law is not a subject I'm vary familiar with.
I'm not afraid to fight as long as I have a sound legal position to argue from.
Thanks in Advance,
LawWarrior
P.S. I have not sent in my plea to contest this ticket and ,therefore, have not filed any requests for discovery.
Re: Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
The sign appears clear. I suspect the bus was not there blocking the sign the entire time it was within your view. Are you claiming you live nowhere near there and had no prior knowledge the school was there?
Re: Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
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LawWarrior
I told him I didn't see the flashing sign.
So you didn't see the sign but you're certain that a bus/truck was blocking it?
Anyways... Read the Procedural Guide to Traffic Tickets in Washington State thread, follow the procedures Barry instructs you to follow there, return to this thread when you are in receipt of everything, and the Washington gurus will take it from there.
Re: Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
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LawWarrior
Secondly, If a signaling device (sign) is obscured from view, is there any recourse or legal precedent that can be potentially argued with success? Case law, etc? I'm pretty knowledgeable about civil law but traffic law is not a subject I'm vary familiar with.
Actually, the legal authority is a law -- RCW 46.61.050 (2):
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Quoting RCW 46.61.050
(2) No provision of this chapter for which official traffic control devices are required shall be enforced against an alleged violator if at the time and place of the alleged violation an official device is not in proper position and sufficiently legible or visible to be seen by an ordinarily observant person.
Unfortunately, it will only be YOUR WORD that the school zone signal was NOT visible at the time.
But, yes, send in your reply, marked "contested", and request discovery. Let's see what the officer says.
Barry
Re: Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
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Disagreeable
The sign appears clear. I suspect the bus was not there blocking the sign the entire time it was within your view. Are you claiming you live nowhere near there and had no prior knowledge the school was there?
Thanks for your response. There are a number of factors that wouldn't be apparent from looking a five year old Google Map image.
- During this time of day (2:30-3:30pm) the traffic becomes extremely heavy. There are many manufacturing plants, not the least of these being Boeing, where first shift is heading home and second shift workers are inbound to their facilities.
- Southbound Hardeson Rd to eastbound West Casino Rd is the main thoroughfare to I-5 for a huge number of trucking and shipping facilities. There can literally be a dozen 60' container trucks heading out or returning to their facilities at any given time of day.
- There's also a very busy commuter bus line in this area with the main Community Transit facility located on Hardeson here.
- As for your final question, I am quite familiar with this route and travel it frequently. I'm also very aware of the school zone and flashing warning sign. However, in over ten years of frequently traveling this route, I've observed that warning sign maybe 2-3 times. Keep in mind there's no indicated time on that sign informing the public of when that zone restriction would be in effect. (ie: 2:30-4:30 pm weekdays, etc)
With that in mind, my trips along this route typically take place before noon or after 5pm and quite often on weekends.
Those are valid points Disagreeable. Thanks for your response.
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That Guy
So you didn't see the sign but you're certain that a bus/truck was blocking it?
I'm quite certain of the facts. As I stated in my OP, there are a number of other details I omitted for the sake of succinctness. I understand that without having photographic proof of the exact scene as it was occurring, it will be an uphill battle to present a compelling argument of these facts.
I do appreciate your response "That Guy"
Thanks
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blewis
Actually, the legal authority is a law -- RCW 46.61.050 (2):
Thanks Barry. It's looking like my defense will most likely have to be centered around this RCW.
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blewis
Unfortunately, it will only be YOUR WORD that the school zone signal was NOT visible at the time.
The whole my word vs. the word of an officer, to my thinking, is always an exceptionally weak position. Judges really dislike citizens contesting the official version of any given circumstance.
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blewis
But, yes, send in your reply, marked "contested", and request discovery. Let's see what the officer says.
Barry
I have 15 days to submit my pleadings response. Is it better to wait until near the end of the allotted time to insure my request for discovery will contain ALL the pertinent prosecutorial evidence?
I intend to prepare and submit my Request for Discovery personally to the clerk of the court's office so it will have the filing date stamped on the document and then hand deliver a copy to the Municipal Court clerk. (I believe that's the proper order of service)
Re: Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
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LawWarrior
However, in over ten years of frequently traveling this route, I've observed that warning sign maybe 2-3 times.
But that could be indicative of two things... (1) that the sign had only been flashing 2-3 times at the times you passed it in that same ten years period; (2) that you only paid attention/noticed that sign 2-3 times in all the times you had passed it during the same 10 year period - but this does not mean it was only on the 2-3 times you noticed it, it may have been on each and every time you passed it-; and I'll even throw in a third possibility, (3) there is always a bus followed by a tractor trailer that were blocking the sign the majority of times that you passed it...
The point there follows the same logic that makes up the response to you saying:
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LawWarrior
Let me say this, I haven't had any motor vehicle violations in over 35 years.
That is not indicative of you not ever breaking the law in that entire 35 year period. It simply means that you had not been caught. Which is really a world of a difference from the point you're trying to imply.
In fact... You claim that traffic was heavy when all this happened... Now if you were unable to see the sign because of a bus/tractor trailer behind him, it is safe to assume that traffic around you was unable to see the sign at the same time they passed it, as well. Correct? And yet out of all the traffic that was moving in your same direction, and by your own description, you were the only vehicle to get pulled over out of the six vehicle you described approaching the location where the officer was... When you see the officer's statement, you'll see that he will indicate that he visually estimated your speed first and THEN clocked you with Lidar. This means that there is a great likelihood that he visually picked you up as being the fastest vehicle approaching him, clocked you with Lidar and proceeded to pull you over.
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LawWarrior
I'm quite certain of the facts. As I stated in my OP, there are a number of other details I omitted for the sake of succinctness. I understand that without having photographic proof of the exact scene as it was occurring, it will be an uphill battle to present a compelling argument of these facts.
And therefore, the fact that we can safely assume that you are not in possession of any photographic evidence to show the existing conditions at the time, your claims are not likely to improve your chances of any favorable outcome.
With all that being said, I'm just messing with you, :encouragement: you really need not try to justify anything to us, in fact, and fortunately for you, when all is said and done, you will see how none of these points are even remotely relevant. Just follow Barry's instructions in that thread linked above, come back with the relevant material, keep your fingers crossed, and let these guys work their magic.
Re: Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
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That Guy
I'm just messing with you, :encouragement:
:D Glad to hear that Hee hee heee. I was thinking I was going to have to mount a vigorous defensive rebuttal.
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That Guy
But that could be indicative of two things... I'll even throw in a third...
Objection... Your alternative scenario theory, while compelling and thought provoking, fails to impeach the testimony and therefore has no basis. It also lacks substantive evidence that supports any of your conjecture, thereby, rendering it moot.
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That Guy
That is not indicative of you not ever breaking the law in that entire 35 year period. It simply means that you had not been caught.
There's no evidence to the contrary indicating that over the past 35 years that I have ever violated any motor vehicle laws. Therefore, it's immaterial whether or not I have ever actually violated any motor vehicle laws or not. There's a presumption of innocence unless there are facts to prove otherwise.
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That Guy
In fact... You claim that traffic was heavy when all this happened... Now if you were unable to see the sign because of a bus/tractor trailer behind him, it is safe to assume that traffic around you was unable to see the sign at the same time they passed it, as well. Correct?
Incorrect. The tractor-trailer rig was ahead of me in the left turn lane. The only vehicles affected by the obstruction would have been those vehicles that were in the turn lane behind me. All the eastbound traffic and northbound traffic making a eastbound turn would not have been affected.
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That Guy
you were the only vehicle to get pulled over out of the six vehicle you described approaching the location
Call it luck of the draw. There were, in fact, other vehicles driving at the same speed I was, but my vehicle stands a good two feet higher and has a easily distinguishable shape that apparently caught the eye of the officer.
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That Guy
And therefore, the fact that we can safely assume that you are not in possession of any photographic evidence to show the existing conditions at the time, your claims are not likely to improve your chances of any favorable outcome.
Being a professional photographer, over the coming days I will be taking photographic evidence during the exact time range of the citation in in an effort to provide evidence to support my claim.
Re: Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
Here is another thread about this same location. It also contains a link to yet another thread. The one I've linked to was dismissed, but the OP from the other thread never came back to post the results.
In any case, these may provide some insight.
Barry
Re: Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
My apologies if I've offended anyone reading this post or replying to my thread. That wasn't my intention. I'm new here and maybe I shouldn't be engaging in any debates.
I seriously came here for help. As I stated previously, I have a fairly extensive civil law background. So engaging in points of law debates, it's entirely from that perspective.
I have little to no traffic law experience but I'm eager and willing to learn. I will resist the temptation to engage in debates and don my listening ears so I can get through this mess.
I have read the entire Procedural Guide to Traffic Tickets in Washington State thread and for the most part have a generally good grasp of the procedures.
I'm a bit confuses as to where the filings need to take place and exactly who needs to be served the various Requests ans motions. On the citation there's an address to the Municipal Court that the ticket needs to be sent to.
After that, it's unclear to me where I need to file the Request for Discovery and any other motions.
NOTE: As I have no idea who comes here and peruses these forums (maybe prosecutors?), I will sometimes give vague answers in order to conceal identifying information. If the forum allows and relies on private messages between members, that would be preferable to me.
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blewis
Here is another thread about this same location. It also contains a link to yet another thread. The one I've linked to was dismissed, but the OP from the other thread never came back to post the results.
In any case, these may provide some insight.
Barry
Many Thanks Berry. I will dive into that thread.
Re: Speeding in a School Zone, When the Flashing Sign Was Obscured by a Bus
Well, so much for "donning your listening ears". If you had downloaded the Discovery Request template, you might have noticed that it contains these instructions:
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You must serve this on the prosecutor and file a copy with the court. Call the Clerk of the Court and ask for the address of the Prosecutor's Office. I usually print three copies. I hand carry all three to the prosecutor's office. Have the clerk/receptionist date/time stamp ALL THREE copies. Leave one for the prosecutor. Take the two remaining copies to the Court Clerk. Have them date/time stamp BOTH copies. Leave one with the clerk. Your copy now contains the 'proof of service' in case you don't receive the discovery materials. If you're too far away, you can also send them CRRR (or just mail them -- but it's safer to have a 'proof of service').
Any motions you want to make should be made at your hearing. Spokane County is the only one I know of that requires motions be submitted in advance.
Barry