Prohibited Person in Car with a Gun

My question involves criminal law for the state of: PA

This is a hypothetical (which I know you don't like) but I'm curious about something very specific. If a driver (also owner of car) and passenger drive to a store, and driver goes into store, leaving passenger in the car, is passenger now liable for property in the car?

I carry a gun and have a PA LTCF, which enables me to carry concealed (in PA, driving in a car with a gun is considered concealed carry). My question is if there are any repercussions if there are passengers who do NOT have LCTFs. If I am the owner of the car and am in the car with passengers with my gun, I read the law to say all is ok. It's my gun and in my possession.

What if the gun is kept in the glove box? Is this now considered the passenger's property, since it is closer in proximity to them than to me? (Thinking of when a cop finds a marijuana bowl in a car, no one fesses up, so whoever it's closest to is charged, etc.).

What if I leave the gun in the car to run into a store that prohibits guns? Is leaving the gun in the car with a passenger illegal? I'm assuming this would be true if I knowingly leave a gun in the car with a person who I know is prohibited. But what if it isn't a prohibited person? Just a passenger who does not have a LTCF? If that individual now breaking the law by virtue of being a passenger in a vehicle that has a gun locked in the glove box?

Thank you.

It is going to depend on the full facts. If you insist upon leaving a firearm within the constructive possession of a passenger of your vehicle, despite that person's being banned from possessing firearms, you had best make them aware of your plan such that they can decide whether it's worth the risk.

Why not just leave the gun at home? What do you need a gun in your car for anyway?

Problem solved.

Quote:

---

Quoting nadsab

---

Why not just leave the gun at home? What do you need a gun in your car for anyway?
Problem solved.

---

Appreciate your advice, but that is not an acceptable solution to me.

Why not?

Quote:

---

Quoting nadsab

---

Why not?

---

The point of becoming licensed to CARRY a gun...well, is to carry it. In public, for self defense.

But you wouldn't be carrying it. You would be leaving it in the car with the person you know is not allowed to be in possession of the firearm.

Quote:

---

Quoting Mr. Knowitall

---

It is going to depend on the full facts. If you insist upon leaving a firearm within the constructive possession of a passenger of your vehicle, despite that person's being banned from possessing firearms, you had best make them aware of your plan such that they can decide whether it's worth the risk.

---

Completely agree with this. Up to this point, I have never left it in the car with a passenger. I typically don't leave it in the car ever as I concealed carry. My concern was potentially going somewhere that prohibits firearms, thus being forced to leave the gun secured in a glovebox while I conduct my business. I guess I could always have the passenger accompany me into the store. I just wasn't able to find any case law related to this scenario and wanted to get other opinions. I think it could very well depend entirely on the LEO. I can easily foresee a cop making a huge deal out of it, and another cop seeing that it is locked in the glovebox while I am the only one with a key. Thanks for responses.

Quote:

---

Quoting PADriver13

---

The point of becoming licensed to CARRY a gun...well, is to carry it. In public, for self defense.

---

Are you fearful that someone may harm you?

Y'know, I don't give two hoots about guns. They don't interest me. I have no interested in owning one or using one for any purpose whatsoever. I am completely uninterested. However, we don't all have the same tastes and if you want one, it's okay with me. If you feel you need one for defense, or for target shooting, or for hunting, or just because you can, I have no problem with that. I have somewhat stronger feelings on the matter of registration and private citizens owning AK-47s, but on an overall basis if you want a gun, go ahead and have one for all I care.

However, if you live in a world where your safety would be impacted by not having a gun right on you every minute, I feel very sorry for you.

Quote:

---

Quoting cbg

---

However, if you live in a world where your safety would be impacted by not having a gun right on you every minute, I feel very sorry for you.

---

While I appreciate your thoughts, I firmly believe that when seconds count, the police (or other assistance) are only minutes away. Better to have and not need, than to need and not have. I carry a gun for the same reason you have a fire extinguisher in your kitchen (faster than calling the fire department, no?). I also have an immediate family member who was brutally attacked by thugs for his car (at his place of business - somewhere we feel relatively secure).

I suppose it's unlikely that such a scenario would occur anyway, as it would take some substantial circumstances to lead to an LEO discovering a gun locked in a glove box (PA is no-duty to inform), but I had wondered what the exact nuances of having it in the car (not on my person) were. I had previously looked at it as "no problem" - it's my car, my gun, locked in my glove box that only I have the key for. But in reality it could go down much differently than that. I don't want to be the first case study to find out what happens, so trying to educate myself.

Re-reading the statute, it appears to be acceptable as long as a vehicle passenger is not deemed in possession or control of the firearm. So as long as a glove box remained locked a passenger could not reasonably control something within - right?

Quote:

---

Quoting PADriver13

---

Completely agree with this. Up to this point, I have never left it in the car with a passenger. I typically don't leave it in the car ever as I concealed carry.

---

You should still make your passenger aware of the firearm. The determination of whether he could face legal consequences should be made by him, not by you.

When you say Prohibited Person it makes me think of a convicted felon, someone under a restraining order etc.

If they are you really need to inform them of the firearm and the situation you are leaving it in because you are not the one that would be going to prison or jail if they are caught in possession of it.

If you mean your buddy simply does not have a Concealed Carry permit and the glovebox is locked then I doubt they would be charged.

Quote:

---

Quoting Mephis

---

When you say Prohibited Person it makes me think of a convicted felon, someone under a restraining order etc.

---

I say "prohibited person" as that is the language that is used in the PA statutes. It would refer to a multiple group of people - convicted felons, anyone convicted of domestic violence, an underage person, during a State of Emergency (w/o a LTCF), etc. etc. For my purposes it doesn't matter why the individual is prohibited, the law will look at it the same.

I also agree with all those who have said that it should be made aware to any passengers - which I do from a moral standpoint, but I'm more curious to know if from a legal standpoint a passenger can be found in control of something that is simply in the car.

CAN a person be found to be in control of something in the car? Absolutely!

WILL they even be charged or convicted? Who can say?

The answer is no, it is not legal.
Full stop.

You want to play stupid games, expect to win stupid prizes. Federal prisons are fullof disqualified persons who thought "YEAH WELL I DON'T OWN THE GUN, MY WIFE DOES!" would be good enough.

Constructive possession is any time a disqualified person knowingly has access to a firearm whether he intends to access it or not.

Furthermore, you yourself are absolutely on the hook for knowingly providing a firearm to a person convicted of a felony.
Let me guess... "YEAH BUT I HAVE MY CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT AND I DON'T HAVE A RECORD AND..."

I'd suggest you examine what some Federal firearm regulatory cases actually look like some time. Here's a preview: they regularly prosecute otherwise good, decent people and send them to prison over dumb technicalities relating to firearm dispositions.

Quote:

---

Quoting MoreLaws

---

You want to play stupid games, expect to win stupid prizes. Federal prisons are fullof disqualified persons who thought "YEAH WELL I DON'T OWN THE GUN, MY WIFE DOES!" would be good enough.

---

This is not the argument being made.

Quote:

---

Quoting MoreLaws

---

Constructive possession is any time a disqualified person knowingly has access to a firearm whether he intends to access it or not.

---

Isn't a gun, that is locked in a separate compartment, that only the driver has a key to, inaccessible by anyone, other than the driver?

Quote:

---

Quoting MoreLaws

---

Furthermore, you yourself are absolutely on the hook for knowingly providing a firearm to a person convicted of a felony.

---

No one is suggesting furnishing a firearm to a convicted felon. Not sure where I said that was my intent. Maybe you are confused??

Quote:

---

Quoting MoreLaws

---

Let me guess... "YEAH BUT I HAVE MY CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT AND I DON'T HAVE A RECORD AND..."

---

Who is suggesting this as a defense to anything? I surely didn't. Also, it's a LTCF in PA, not a CCW.

Quote:

---

Quoting MoreLaws

---

I'd suggest you examine what some Federal firearm regulatory cases actually look like some time. Here's a preview: they regularly prosecute otherwise good, decent people and send them to prison over dumb technicalities relating to firearm dispositions.

---

I have, thank you. The reason I posted is because I cannot find any cases relating to my specific situation. I have, however, found cases in where judges have rules that keeping guns in a home, inside of a locked safe that is access controlled, is acceptable when there are prohibited people also cohabiting in the house.

The thing is, you don't HAVE a specific situation. You have a hypothetical, which is almost impossible to give a clear answer to because a hypothetical has no established facts.

Quote:

---

Quoting PADriver13

---

I say "prohibited person" as that is the language that is used in the PA statutes. It would refer to a multiple group of people - convicted felons, anyone convicted of domestic violence, an underage person, during a State of Emergency (w/o a LTCF), etc. etc. For my purposes it doesn't matter why the individual is prohibited, the law will look at it the same.

I also agree with all those who have said that it should be made aware to any passengers - which I do from a moral standpoint, but I'm more curious to know if from a legal standpoint a passenger can be found in control of something that is simply in the car.

---

This brings up another question....

You seem to be concerned about this issue of a gun being in a glove box, in front of a possible convicted felon.

My first question to you would be - are any of your passengers in the vehicle that you own and of which you drive them around in or allow them to borrow your vehicle - are any of them convicted felons?

Or people convicted of domestic violence?

Or under age persons?

If so - do you knowingly drive said person(s) around as passengers in your vehicle, with said gun in the glove box either locked or un locked?

Or - do you allow above said individual(s) to borrow your vehicle?

Quote:

---

Quoting cbg

---

The thing is, you don't HAVE a specific situation. You have a hypothetical, which is almost impossible to give a clear answer to because a hypothetical has no established facts.

---

I understand your point - but I think I have narrowed this hypothetical down very well.

What I need to know is if there is any acceptable and valid legal defense such that an individual cannot be found to be in possession of something by virtue of it simply being within the vehicle, even thought it is securely locked and in a separate compartment to which the individual does not have a key. Is it a valid defense that an item is not readily accessible when it is locked in a separate compartment to which the individual does not have a key?

Quote:

---

Quoting PADriver13

---

Isn't a gun, that is locked in a separate compartment, that only the driver has a key to, inaccessible by anyone, other than the driver?

---

Such depends on whether or not "anyone" has a mini pry bar in their overcoat.

Quote:

---

Quoting PADriver13

---

No one is suggesting furnishing a firearm to a convicted felon. Not sure where I said that was my intent. Maybe you are confused??

---

If you are not suggesting furnishing a firearm to a convicted felon, then why are you asking whether or not it is OK to place a firearm in a glovebox that lies inches in front of a possible convicted felon? If you do not as a regular habit drive convicted felons around in your car - then why would you be worried about carrying a firearm around in your car? Don't you know who your passengers in your personal vehicle are?

Quote:

---

Quoting PADriver13

---

Who is suggesting this as a defense to anything? I surely didn't. Also, it's a LTCF in PA, not a CCW.

---

If you are not on a daily basis driving around convicted felons or criminals around in your car then I do not see why you would be worried about this issue.

Quote:

---

Quoting PADriver13

---

I have, thank you. The reason I posted is because I cannot find any cases relating to my specific situation. I have, however, found cases in where judges have rules that keeping guns in a home, inside of a locked safe that is access controlled, is acceptable when there are prohibited people also cohabiting in the house.

---

Quote:

---

Quoting nadsab

---

My first question to you would be - are any of your passengers in the vehicle that you own and of which you drive them around in or allow them to borrow your vehicle - are any of them convicted felons?

---

No, not to my knowledge. And I'm not being coy. I have never knowingly allowed someone in my car that was a prohibited person from being around firearms.

Quote:

---

Or people convicted of domestic violence?

---

No.

Quote:

---

Or under age persons?

---

Yes - however, the firearm was secured in a holster on my belt, therefore I was in complete possession, and the underage individual was an immediate family member (exempt from underage provision)

Quote:

---

If so - do you knowingly drive said person(s) around as passengers in your vehicle, with said gun in the glove box either locked or un locked?

---

When I drive, the gun is ALWAYS secured in my holster, on my belt. The only time it is EVER left in a LOCKED glove box is when I go somewhere that prohibits firearms.

Quote:

---

Or - do you allow above said individual(s) to borrow your vehicle?

---

No, no one has ever borrowed my vehicle, and I sure as heck wouldn't leave a gun in a vehicle that I am not going to be in. (theft, loss, etc.)

PS - I apologize for any confusion, seems several are confusing convicted felon with prohibited person. I am not pal'ing around with convicted felons, however, there are several people I spend time with who are otherwise prohibited, simply by not having a LTCF.

The problem with giving an answer to a hypothetical is as follows:

Say we respond to a hypothetical regarding facts a, b and c. What happens when a situation occurs but it's a, b and d?

We CANNOT give you a hard and fast answer to what is essentially a moving target.

Too hypothetical. If I were the OP I would be asking the people whom issue gun permits in the state I was driving in. There are far too many variables involved. Ask the state police if you can leave a permitted handgun in a locked glovebox if anyone is in the passenger seat and see what they say.

It would be like asking - can someone sue me or arrest me if I do something that may or may not be wrong.

When in doubt then just dont bring the gun with you no problem.

Now, if you have no passengers in your car, and if you leave your permitted gun in a locked car and you are not in the car, and someone breaks into your car and steals the gun, that would be another question. Because you can file a police report for theft of the gun and it is then considered stolen and out of your hands. But to leave your gun in a car that is potentially un locked because there is now someone else in the car whom may or may not leave the car and may or may not lock the car if and when they leave, with you not in the car, and anyone has access to the unlocked car, it is anyones guess what a criminal or civil court may decide.

I can tell you what I would think though if I was on a jury in a civil case. If someone left a gun in a glove box with either a minor child or a convicted felon in the passenger seat, and then went in to buy a big mac, and something went awry with the gun, i would vote to offer damages to the idiot who left a gun in a glove box near either a child or a convicted felon.

And another thing - everyone on the planet knows that locks on glove boxes are a joke - they can either be picked with a flimsy finger nail file or pried open with a screw driver and offer little or any security. So the idea that leaving a hand gun in a locked glove box in a vehicle that may or may be unlocked and may or may not be open to anyone whom walks by - the idea that doing so offers any measure of security is absurd and everyone knows it.

I, personally, don't leave a gun in my car - occupied or not. If I am going to go somewhere that for some reason won't allow even an off-duty peace officer to carry inside (like an NFL football game) I either leave it at home, or, secure it hidden in the trunk of my vehicle where no one can get at it without major destruction. I would NEVER leave it in a glove box or other storage area on the interior of the car when I was not physically present.