Prohibited Person in Car with a Gun

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Quoting cbg

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However, if you live in a world where your safety would be impacted by not having a gun right on you every minute, I feel very sorry for you.

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While I appreciate your thoughts, I firmly believe that when seconds count, the police (or other assistance) are only minutes away. Better to have and not need, than to need and not have. I carry a gun for the same reason you have a fire extinguisher in your kitchen (faster than calling the fire department, no?). I also have an immediate family member who was brutally attacked by thugs for his car (at his place of business - somewhere we feel relatively secure).

I suppose it's unlikely that such a scenario would occur anyway, as it would take some substantial circumstances to lead to an LEO discovering a gun locked in a glove box (PA is no-duty to inform), but I had wondered what the exact nuances of having it in the car (not on my person) were. I had previously looked at it as "no problem" - it's my car, my gun, locked in my glove box that only I have the key for. But in reality it could go down much differently than that. I don't want to be the first case study to find out what happens, so trying to educate myself.

Re-reading the statute, it appears to be acceptable as long as a vehicle passenger is not deemed in possession or control of the firearm. So as long as a glove box remained locked a passenger could not reasonably control something within - right?

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Quoting PADriver13

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Completely agree with this. Up to this point, I have never left it in the car with a passenger. I typically don't leave it in the car ever as I concealed carry.

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You should still make your passenger aware of the firearm. The determination of whether he could face legal consequences should be made by him, not by you.

When you say Prohibited Person it makes me think of a convicted felon, someone under a restraining order etc.

If they are you really need to inform them of the firearm and the situation you are leaving it in because you are not the one that would be going to prison or jail if they are caught in possession of it.

If you mean your buddy simply does not have a Concealed Carry permit and the glovebox is locked then I doubt they would be charged.

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Quoting Mephis

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When you say Prohibited Person it makes me think of a convicted felon, someone under a restraining order etc.

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I say "prohibited person" as that is the language that is used in the PA statutes. It would refer to a multiple group of people - convicted felons, anyone convicted of domestic violence, an underage person, during a State of Emergency (w/o a LTCF), etc. etc. For my purposes it doesn't matter why the individual is prohibited, the law will look at it the same.

I also agree with all those who have said that it should be made aware to any passengers - which I do from a moral standpoint, but I'm more curious to know if from a legal standpoint a passenger can be found in control of something that is simply in the car.

CAN a person be found to be in control of something in the car? Absolutely!

WILL they even be charged or convicted? Who can say?

The answer is no, it is not legal.
Full stop.

You want to play stupid games, expect to win stupid prizes. Federal prisons are fullof disqualified persons who thought "YEAH WELL I DON'T OWN THE GUN, MY WIFE DOES!" would be good enough.

Constructive possession is any time a disqualified person knowingly has access to a firearm whether he intends to access it or not.

Furthermore, you yourself are absolutely on the hook for knowingly providing a firearm to a person convicted of a felony.
Let me guess... "YEAH BUT I HAVE MY CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT AND I DON'T HAVE A RECORD AND..."

I'd suggest you examine what some Federal firearm regulatory cases actually look like some time. Here's a preview: they regularly prosecute otherwise good, decent people and send them to prison over dumb technicalities relating to firearm dispositions.

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Quoting MoreLaws

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You want to play stupid games, expect to win stupid prizes. Federal prisons are fullof disqualified persons who thought "YEAH WELL I DON'T OWN THE GUN, MY WIFE DOES!" would be good enough.

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This is not the argument being made.

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Quoting MoreLaws

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Constructive possession is any time a disqualified person knowingly has access to a firearm whether he intends to access it or not.

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Isn't a gun, that is locked in a separate compartment, that only the driver has a key to, inaccessible by anyone, other than the driver?

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Quoting MoreLaws

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Furthermore, you yourself are absolutely on the hook for knowingly providing a firearm to a person convicted of a felony.

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No one is suggesting furnishing a firearm to a convicted felon. Not sure where I said that was my intent. Maybe you are confused??

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Quoting MoreLaws

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Let me guess... "YEAH BUT I HAVE MY CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT AND I DON'T HAVE A RECORD AND..."

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Who is suggesting this as a defense to anything? I surely didn't. Also, it's a LTCF in PA, not a CCW.

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Quoting MoreLaws

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I'd suggest you examine what some Federal firearm regulatory cases actually look like some time. Here's a preview: they regularly prosecute otherwise good, decent people and send them to prison over dumb technicalities relating to firearm dispositions.

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I have, thank you. The reason I posted is because I cannot find any cases relating to my specific situation. I have, however, found cases in where judges have rules that keeping guns in a home, inside of a locked safe that is access controlled, is acceptable when there are prohibited people also cohabiting in the house.

The thing is, you don't HAVE a specific situation. You have a hypothetical, which is almost impossible to give a clear answer to because a hypothetical has no established facts.

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Quoting PADriver13

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I say "prohibited person" as that is the language that is used in the PA statutes. It would refer to a multiple group of people - convicted felons, anyone convicted of domestic violence, an underage person, during a State of Emergency (w/o a LTCF), etc. etc. For my purposes it doesn't matter why the individual is prohibited, the law will look at it the same.

I also agree with all those who have said that it should be made aware to any passengers - which I do from a moral standpoint, but I'm more curious to know if from a legal standpoint a passenger can be found in control of something that is simply in the car.

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This brings up another question....

You seem to be concerned about this issue of a gun being in a glove box, in front of a possible convicted felon.

My first question to you would be - are any of your passengers in the vehicle that you own and of which you drive them around in or allow them to borrow your vehicle - are any of them convicted felons?

Or people convicted of domestic violence?

Or under age persons?

If so - do you knowingly drive said person(s) around as passengers in your vehicle, with said gun in the glove box either locked or un locked?

Or - do you allow above said individual(s) to borrow your vehicle?

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Quoting cbg

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The thing is, you don't HAVE a specific situation. You have a hypothetical, which is almost impossible to give a clear answer to because a hypothetical has no established facts.

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I understand your point - but I think I have narrowed this hypothetical down very well.

What I need to know is if there is any acceptable and valid legal defense such that an individual cannot be found to be in possession of something by virtue of it simply being within the vehicle, even thought it is securely locked and in a separate compartment to which the individual does not have a key. Is it a valid defense that an item is not readily accessible when it is locked in a separate compartment to which the individual does not have a key?