First Time Shoplifting By A Foreigner

First, thanks for your forum, I learnt a lot tonight, and after the most confusing experience I have had, it gave me strength.

I was arrested tonight for shoplifting at a big store in New York City. First time, but I already feel unbelievably stupid and humiliated...Fingerprinted and then given a date to go to court. I am a foreign graduate student on an F1 visa, but was told not to worry about it affecting my travel unless I ran from the court date and was wanted in 49 states for Petit Larceny.

My questions:
1-Should I look for a lawyer, I can't afford one btw, even though I was assured by the police that i would get a fine and/or probation?
2-What is a diversionary program? Will the judge i see automatically offer me one, or will i have to ask about it through a lawyer?
3-If I don't hear anything until my court date and am sentenced to a fine etc, will my record be automatically expunged if I serve out the probation without screwing up?
4-If I am convicted and such, how do I apply for getting my record expunged, if it isn't already?

Hi again,
Just wanted to say thank you for your forum. And to seriously ask for help... HELP! Even though I cannot believe what possessed me to do something as stupid as this, I need to know how to do this right.

1. Yes you should consult an Attorney even if its only for legal advice and not to represent you

2. You or your legal defense can request diversion if your state offers it.

3. No you have to seek expungement yourself and I think you must wait several years before you can. Check yout State Laws on that one.

4. You have to seek to expunge and paperwork and filing process you can find out about by calling court clerk

Try to consult a lawyer who offers a free initial consultation.

A diversion program lets you complete certain requirements set by the court, and if you do everything you're supposed to you don't get a conviction. They're not available in every jurisdiction, so ask with the court or lawyer you consult.

Your record will not be automatically expunged.

New York has limited expungement options - you must have the charge resolved in your favor in order to get an expungement. The post-conviction options do not remove your record. Think of a criminal conviction a being "for life".

Dear Panther and Knowitall,
I really appreciate your detailed responses, it was very kind and totally on the mark. I saw a criminal defense attorney today, as a free first consulation. Mostly, I was just amazed that he wasn't even fazed as a hysterical Indian girl blazed into his office. He said he's charging me 1500 in total and not by the hour...which means I only go a few months on Ramen noodles (did I mention how little my scholarship is?)

Anyway here are some answers:
-He is going to try to get an ACD on my case when we go to court.
-It is very very rare that something of this magnitude goes to trial.
-Worst case scenario is that I plead guilty to a disorderly conduct, which is apparently not a criminal record, but is still a record.
-It is impossible to get something "expunged" in New York, but sometimes things can be "sealed", although not as well.
-There is no diversionary thing in this state. The best ANY lawyer can do is to convince the DA that I should be treated differently than the career shoplifter and instead of being sent to jail, be on an ACD (a variant on the probation theme, where after 6 months, if you behave yourself, the charges are dismissed).

Please tell me if this makes sense. I can't judge.


My advice to other people:
-Just don't do it. If you did it anyway, get a lawyer and tell him the truth.
-Get a lawyer. It costs 5 times as much as the merchandise you stole, but it is better than winging it on your court date with a PD who just met you.
-If there are extraneous circumstances ... you were on Nyquil, you closed the bag you put stuff in, you dropped everything and ran, you were PMSing, someone died... ANYTHING that you don't do normally, TELL THE LAWYER.
-If it is the "acting out" part of it that is true, get help. Most universities have free counseling sessions. Even if you see someone between the arrest and the first court date, a letter from a doctor goes a long way.
-If you are a foreigner, and have been charged with petit larceny or possession of stolen things, you can benefit from trying everything to see you don't get convicted; and/or at least plead to a lesser charge.

I will post questions if I have any. In the meantime, thank you both again. I will appreciate it if you told me whether the lawyer was accurate.
be well.

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Quoting elliottdelilah

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...as a hysterical Indian girl.....
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Just a simple question for you......if you were caught stealing in your home country, what would the penalty/punishment be?

Here's a quote of a post made by you earlier today;

"I think that if the man wanted criticism for his actions, he'd look in the mirror. He is looking neither for sympathy, nor condonation. He needs help. Please help him with legal advice, or just write to someone else who is in need for moral high horses. Please."

You're on a scholarship, you're a visitor here in the good ole U.S. of A., and yet you see fit to berate another poster for what you perceive as "moral high horses"? All this on top of admitting to theft.......

How 'bout you cash out the rest of your scholarship for a ticket back home!

once again, JMHO!!!!!!

Hi souper dave,
For the first time shoplifter, there would be a hefty cash fine and a warning if convicted. But at home, there is no system of records for people. So something like this is unlikely to be on permanent documentation, even with a conviction. Keep in mind, there are a lot of us :) and the laws are not different from state to state, so such an organized system for a billion of us has never been pulled off successfully.

If I had made it worse though, I would have to go to jail until someone bailed me out, in a slow painful bureaucratic process. In triplicate.

"Stealing", as you asked, is somewhat different. I think the Indian legal system lumps burglary, robbery, pick-pocketing and grand larceny into "stealing", and that is often much more serious and involves at least a short stay in prison. Even for the first time.

Why do you ask?

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Quoting souperdave

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Here's a quote of a post made by you earlier today;

"I think that if the man wanted criticism for his actions, he'd look in the mirror. He is looking neither for sympathy, nor condonation. He needs help. Please help him with legal advice, or just write to someone else who is in need for moral high horses. Please."

You're on a scholarship, you're a visitor here in the good ole U.S. of A., and yet you see fit to berate another poster for what you perceive as "moral high horses"? All this on top of admitting to theft.......

How 'bout you cash out the rest of your scholarship for a ticket back home!

once again, JMHO!!!!!!

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This kinda reminds me of the premed student who got caught stealing hairspray and a candybar and then wanted to know how to keep it from going on their record and affecting their career!

A person commits a crime then doesnt want anyone to call him a thief! No matter how many times I read this stuff I am still amazed

Hi SD,

I am sorry it sounded like I was berating someone. I just think that the forum is meant for people with serious remorse and concern for their future. We all make bad judgement calls, yes even repeatedly.

But isn't it important that one tries to rectify it, admits to something difficult and asks for help? Please take this with humor but if I really wanted someone to sound like my father, and point out how I let down my fellowship by shoplifting, I would indeed go home. :-) What is JMHO by the way?

I didn't say I did something spectacularly clever yesterday, did I? In fact this might be the thing I am most ashamed of in my life. All I said was, please go easy on someone else who clearly needs help.
Be well.

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Quoting elliottdelilah

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Hi souper dave,
For the first time shoplifter, there would be a hefty cash fine and a warning if convicted. But at home, there is no system of records for people.

Why do you ask?

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You are from India are you not? And in most (all?) Muslim and/or Hindu cultures isn't the penalty for theft the loss of the 'offending' appendage?

Look, I understand your getting aggravated that someone stole and wants to escape consequences.

I don't want to escape consequences. I just want a chance to do better. And if I am whacked too hard the first time I ever screw up, then I might not HAVE that chance. Whether to show society that a lesson was served and learnt, or to demonstrate that I am capable of being trusted, someone in my position can only do her best if I got that chance.

I could make excuses, but I am deeply sorry for what I did. I owe it to my career and all I have learnt as a student, to try my best to get a chance to do better.

The Law is the Law your residence status or career staus should not matter! This will not likely impact neither its a minor offense but to minmize it sets you up for repeat actions as many of us have often seen. Take your punishment and move forward

I am assuming of course that your questions to me are serious, and not fueled by anger and sarcasm alone.

No one chops off appendages for anything in India, in fact they never did. Besides, the Indian criminal justice system is not the same as a uniform civil code in some Islamic societies. There is no such thing as a Hindu justice system.

If I were trafficking drugs in the Emirates, then the punishment might be a mixture of the shariya and their legal system. Again, not for shoplifting, perhaps something that threatened the life/limb of someone else.

Of course, I will take the punishment and move forward. I am. My trying to minimize the damage is not an attempt to grease my glowing criminal career. Guilt is a personal concept, and if i didn't have enough of my own, no maximum potential damage would grow some in me.

Suffice to say, I did something horrible to act out against someone's suicide, but I will do everything I can to see that it does not happen again. Not by "getting away" with it, but by actually doing better.

I took what you said seriously, you make a good point about repeat offenses.
I will get help regardless of the outcome of this.

Tell me though. Panther, did my lawyer's advice seem sound to you?

I am usually on the victim's (stores) side so my view is bias. I am NOT an Attorney therefore I am NOT qualified to judge his advice. Both myself and Mr. K suggest you consult a Lawyer you did and paid a large sum of money for it (too much in my view). Far be it for me to say NOT to follow your Lawyers advice. Like I have said your fines etc will be small and easily dealt with without harm to your status here.

I was in your situation a few months ago and my lawyer told me the exact same things. Definitely tell your lawyer everything (even if it does not seem to be particularly important). I also sought counselling after getting caught, which was very helpful.

In my case, I was fortunate enough to be offered a diversion program. I took the whole experience as a lesson learned.

I completed my M.Sc. in medical microbiology this fall, and I'm glad my experience did not ruin my chances of being a productive member of society.

I hope everything works out for you :)

Thank you P, K and SD. I appreciate it all - your time, advice and criticism. The law is also on the side of the victim... on a better day, so am I. We're both biased :-)

If there is a lawyer reading this thread (Aaron?), could you please possibly read the post about some stuff that came from my meeting the lawyer, and tell me if it makes sense factually?

Thank you for your sympathy, marblephant. I am glad things turned around for you.
I will see what happens and let you know.

Trying for an ACD definitely makes sense.

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Quoting elliottdelilah

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Look, I understand your getting aggravated that someone stole and wants to escape consequences....

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Just for the record, I never get "aggravated"......a little irritated at times, but never aggravated. I do not take any of this personal. For the most part it's purely cheap entertainment. Entertainment that I'm paid quite well for partaking of.

All in a day's work my lady, all in a day's work.

That made me laugh SD, cheap entertainment or not for you, it helps people like me get some serious perspective. If we had been born with a generous supply ourselves, we'd not be having this discussion at all.
Keep up your caustic self :)
be well.

Quote:

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Quoting elliottdelilah

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Keep up your caustic self :)

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I wouldn't contemplate doing anything else. :p

Elliotdelilah

Any updates on the shoplifting charge.

Good luck

my court date is tomorrow... will tell you what happens... right now, i am freaking out. i am debating not studying for my final on tuesday, because they don't let you take a quantum mechanics exam from prison.
i did hire a lawyer though.

I wanted to thank the people who posted advice on court appearances here. Not just that, your forum has helped me a lot, all the way from legal advice (thanks Aaron), to yelling at me (go, SD!).

Although your advice on court appearances is all intuitive ... dress demurely, no cellphone, punctuality, brevity etc... when one is anxious/crazy and has taken the subway to court 3 times this weekend, just to "time it" precisely, a list goes a long way.

But I did call my mother on one hand; and rederived path integrals on the other... so whether my karmic overlord (!) throws me in jail or on my QM final, I will be prepared.

Hopefully, I will write and tell of an outcome tomorrow.

[QUOTE=elliottdelilah;70740...... to yelling at me (go, SD!).[/QUOTE]

And to think.....Panther and PaulE didn't think I had a cheering section!!! ;)

Naw soups I know you have supporters in fact proably more than I :cool: