What Will Happen if an Adult Male Stranger Wrongly Touches a Female Minor

My question involves criminal law for the state of: Virgina

Here's an interesting scenario.

Homeless shelter is operated by a private non-profit and shelters mainly males. Female employee of the non-profit brings her 17 year-old daughter to work in the evening. Daughter looks college age, wears black spandex that reveals every detail of her very shapely behind.

Place is filled with primarily with males of all ages, races, and conditions -- physical impairments, mental impairments, substance abusers with alcohol and drug problems, etc. Well-run and responsible, caring staff. Likelihood of a serious violent crime like murder or rape is very low-- lower than on the street even. Likelihood of a scuffle between guys or an incident of grab-ass is not so low. If an intoxicated man offensively embraces the adult female employee, then he is guilty of something like misdemeanor assault (unwanted touching), which would likely result in exclusion from the facility. If an intoxicated man embraces or fondles the 17 year-old daughter though, is he guilty of earth-shattering, sex-offender-registry, adult-on-minor physical assault or sexual assault?

Shelter residents aren't permitted to carry weapons or drugs into the facility because these things are dangerous, but the adult female seems to be unaware of the danger posed by a sexualized 17 year-old in a place filled with many men whose conditions range from sane and sober to schizophrenic and alcoholic. If an incident of grab-ass occurs between a shelter resident and the 17 year-old, who is able to say that not contacting the police is the legal thing to do? Once police are called, who can stop an arrest from occurring? Knowing what can happen to chemically dependent and mentally ill men who are convicted of child sex offenses, it seems like allowing the residents to play Russian Roulette might be more safe than allowing a 17 year old female in the place.

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Quoting FLee

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My question involves criminal law for the state of: Virgina

Here's an interesting scenario.

Homeless shelter is operated by a private non-profit and shelters mainly males. Female employee of the non-profit brings her 17 year-old daughter to work in the evening. Daughter looks college age, wears black spandex that reveals every detail of her very shapely behind.

Place is filled with primarily with males of all ages, races, and conditions -- physical impairments, mental impairments, substance abusers with alcohol and drug problems, etc. Well-run and responsible, caring staff. Likelihood of a serious violent crime like murder or rape is very low-- lower than on the street even. Likelihood of a scuffle between guys or an incident of grab-ass is not so low. If an intoxicated man offensively embraces the adult female employee, then he is guilty of something like misdemeanor assault (unwanted touching), which would likely result in exclusion from the facility. If an intoxicated man embraces or fondles the 17 year-old daughter though, is he guilty of earth-shattering, sex-offender-registry, adult-on-minor physical assault or sexual assault?

Shelter residents aren't permitted to carry weapons or drugs into the facility because these things are dangerous, but the adult female seems to be unaware of the danger posed by a sexualized 17 year-old in a place filled with many men whose conditions range from sane and sober to schizophrenic and alcoholic. If an incident of grab-ass occurs between a shelter resident and the 17 year-old, who is able to say that not contacting the police is the legal thing to do? Once police are called, who can stop an arrest from occurring? Knowing what can happen to chemically dependent and mentally ill men who are convicted of child sex offenses, it seems like allowing the residents to play Russian Roulette might be more safe than allowing a 17 year old female in the place.

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Re-read your own words, and then you'll understand why I'm saying this:

Stop trying to justify touching up a teenager. Leave her alone. And stop trying to lay the blame at her doorstep.

If an intoxicated man embraces or fondles the 17 year-old daughter though, is he guilty of earth-shattering, sex-offender-registry, adult-on-minor physical assault or sexual assault?

Depending on exactly what transpires, the answer is quite possibly YES.

...and in most cases, you can have your butt kicked out of that homeless shelter....

And you had also better hope the 17 year old does not have any self defense or martial arts training.

Dog, I did say she had a nice, shapely behind that her black spandex leotards showed off. It's a nicer ass than many women have at any age, and probably nicer than you could ever hope to have or ever have your hands on. It was the spandex that made me think she was in college.

I'm aware of the laws as they pertain to me. She is a nice young woman, based on my conversation with her. My concern is for the mentally ill and chemically dependent residents who may not have their wits about them. Your response reveals that you're more interested in ad hominem attacks on others than legal questions. Or maybe you'd like to see an alcoholic man land on the sex offender registry because he grabbed the ass of a 17 year-old minor who was permitted by her mother to wear black spandex to the homeless shelter at night. Maybe you'd just like to see an alcoholic man dowsed in gasoline and set ablaze regardless.

What the female is wearing does not give anyone else permission to play grab-ass with her. No matter what.

That is the legal answer, regardless of what you may think.

Your last post is being reported to the moderators.

Not worried about that. They kick people into the cold for failing to shut the f up.

I just don't want any of the mentally ill or alcoholic guys to land on a sex offender registry for acting impulsively with a female who is technically a child but is physically mature, very attractive, and dressed in spandex that reveals every detail of her very shapely ass.

Think it through like an adult. A man who lands on the sex offender registry that is schizophrenic or alcoholic has a very short life expectancy indeed. Wouldn't it be safer to let the residents play Russian Roulette than to permit a 17 year-old, sexualized female into an adult homeless shelter? They have a family shelter for families with children who are homeless, but the girl wasn't homeless... she lives with her mother who works evenings at the shelter and permitted her into the adult area. I talked to her for several minutes while her mom was distracted with other stuff in another area.

Who could say that the police should not be called if an adult male grabbed the child's ass?

Who on the police force could say that an arrest should not be made once the evidence revealed the crime?

Who in the prosecutor's office could not bring charges?

I am thinking like an adult. You are thinking like a horny teenager who is ruled by his hormones.

My last post on the subject.

You are adding all these variables to the equation that won't matter in court or to a police officer. It is illegally for an adult male to sexually assault an underage female, period. No one can tell you if a judge will lesson a sentence because of drug addiction or mental illness, only that judge knows, but i wouldn't depend on a judge doing that if i were involved in this case.

Yeah, that is my point.

Grab-assing an adult female is wrong. Grab-assing a 17 year-old in black spandex is wrong too, but it is an entirely different type of offense from a legal standpoint. The sex offender registry won't say that the girl was nearly 18, was physically mature, and was wearing black spandex leotards with nothing over her ass.

You're pretty moronic cbg for attempting to imply that I was saying it was okay to grab a woman's ass based upon what she is wearing. I wasn't saying it was right. I was saying the likelihood of mistaking the child for a woman was increased by the child's clothing, which was black spandex tights. In a chaotic place filled with men, some of whom are mentally ill or substance abusers, that's a very dangerous thing... for the men moreso than the girl. Gotta run.

I said I would not be posting again. I was wrong.

That is EXACTLY what you were saying. The fact that you are unable (or unwilling) to see that you are saying it only proves my point.

And you didn't read my initial post very carefully, did you?

Doesn't matter if she comes in wearing a thong bikini and singing Happy Birthday Mr. President.
Grabbing anyone's behind, shapely or not in this scenario will result in anything from being banned from the facility, misdemeanor charge of battery or even a felony offense depending on circumstances such as fear, implied threats or coercion; and if the it is the last category then yes a Prosecutor could even push to have them placed on the Sex Offender Registry.

If you are that concerned about the mentally ill, chemically dependent or even the 17 year old then voice your concern to the mother or shelter supervisor.

A last word of advise is if the cops do get called, and they determine an arrest is warranted then no, neither you nor anyone else can "stop the arrest" trying to do so can see you in a neighboring cell.

You are wrong if you think the difference between committing sexual assault is whether the victim is 17 or 18. The only difference might be in the penalty.

If you feel so concerned for this girl....maybe you should express that with the parent who brings her to the shelter?

"Ma'am, I have a concern about your daughters safety here when she is wearing such tight fitting clothes, and there are drunk/insane people here who may think about touching her.....Perhaps you could have her wear less form fitting clothes around here?"

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Quoting PandorasBox

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If you feel so concerned for this girl....maybe you should express that with the parent who brings her to the shelter?

"Ma'am, I have a concern about your daughters safety here when she is wearing such tight fitting clothes, and there are drunk/insane people here who may think about touching her.....Perhaps you could have her wear less form fitting clothes around here?"

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And why would the OP do that? Then he wouldn't be able to get his rocks off...

Well, since he claims no plans for her.....it would be the drunks, etc.......

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Quoting FLee

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Yeah, that is my point.

Grab-assing an adult female is wrong. Grab-assing a 17 year-old in black spandex is wrong too, but it is an entirely different type of offense from a legal standpoint. The sex offender registry won't say that the girl was nearly 18, was physically mature, and was wearing black spandex leotards with nothing over her ass.

You're pretty moronic cbg for attempting to imply that I was saying it was okay to grab a woman's ass based upon what she is wearing. I wasn't saying it was right. I was saying the likelihood of mistaking the child for a woman was increased by the child's clothing, which was black spandex tights. In a chaotic place filled with men, some of whom are mentally ill or substance abusers, that's a very dangerous thing... for the men moreso than the girl. Gotta run.

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Here's my .02 ....Lee is FAR to worried about what "others" may or may not do...
Your in VA...I'm a former Police Officer in Va...here the age of consent is 16....regardless touching the rear,genital area or breast of a woman is SEXUAL ASSAULT.... Period end if story

If the individuals housed here cannot control themselves than so be it and yes they deserve to be on the registry. I have a 17 year old college bound daughter...how she dresses while volunteering is irrelevant .....men who are to weak or incapable of controlling impulses need to be supervised vigorously. To much of your posts make my hair stand up...don't like it? Tough
You sound like your speaking for yourself or looking to blame a victim... No....touch a young lady dressed anyway unwanted and expect a serious charge with high bail if any and also expect poor treatment by inmates at your receiving facility

Good luck to you

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Quoting FLee

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Not worried about that. They kick people into the cold for failing to shut the f up.

I just don't want any of the mentally ill or alcoholic guys to land on a sex offender registry for acting impulsively with a female who is technically a child but is physically mature, very attractive, and dressed in spandex that reveals every detail of her very shapely ass.

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And just who are you in this situation? You seem to be oddly attracted to a minor ... kinda creepy.

Even if we assume that she was an ADULT, unwanted touching of the butt, breasts, or elsewhere can result in criminal charges and (depending on the law in VA) might end up with a sex offender registration. Even an adult cannot be subjected to unwanted physical accosting. So, you're way off base here - there IS NO LEGAL JUSTIFICATION for some idiot's actions. And, no, unless the shelter has a dress code or requires volunteers or visitors to sign a waiver of some kind that essentially states they understand that they can be assaulted at any time by the clients, you can't tell her to leave just because YOU find her underage butt enticing.

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Who could say that the police should not be called if an adult male grabbed the child's ass?

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They could very well be! Heck, they could be called in for grabbing an adult GUY's ass!

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Who on the police force could say that an arrest should not be made once the evidence revealed the crime?

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Why would they NOT make the arrest?

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Who in the prosecutor's office could not bring charges?

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Any ADA assigned to the office could choose NOT to pursue the matter.

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Quoting FLee

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Yeah, that is my point.

Grab-assing an adult female is wrong. Grab-assing a 17 year-old in black spandex is wrong too, but it is an entirely different type of offense from a legal standpoint. The sex offender registry won't say that the girl was nearly 18, was physically mature, and was wearing black spandex leotards with nothing over her ass.

You're pretty moronic cbg for attempting to imply that I was saying it was okay to grab a woman's ass based upon what she is wearing. I wasn't saying it was right. I was saying the likelihood of mistaking the child for a woman was increased by the child's clothing, which was black spandex tights. In a chaotic place filled with men, some of whom are mentally ill or substance abusers, that's a very dangerous thing... for the men moreso than the girl. Gotta run.

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This is one the most manure-laden responses I've ever seen here.

Do you believe a spandex-wearing rape victim was "asking for it" ? That the rapist just couldn't help himself because of that spandex?

No, not creepy at all. I'm an older guy with family plans, and my future children will require at least one parent who is physically strong and who has a good life expectancy. That means I am searching for a young woman, and I must stay relevant to women of a younger generation.

My point is that homeless people are not perfect, which means there might be scuffles and misconduct between strangers that should not involve the police. However with scandals in religious organizations, sports organizations, and schools, it's almost impossible for anyone to not act, arrest, or prosecute when the victim is a minor, even a tall, physically mature 17 year-old wearing nothing but spandex over her ass -- in the adult area of the shelter. A schizophrenic or alcoholic man who lands on a sex offender registry has pretty much received a death sentence. Despite these facts, no one here seems outraged at the risk to the homeless men.

So are you saying we should overlook it when those with mental illness or alcoholism break the laws? Or when someone with mental illness or alcoholism touches a female because he couldn't control his impulses?

You sir, seem to have quite the fascination with this young woman's ass. My advice: Look, but don't touch. I bet if she wore jeans you would have this same fixation.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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You sir, seem to have quite the fascination with this young woman's ass. My advice: Look, but don't touch. I bet if she wore jeans you would have this same fixation.

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Here we go again. The shapely ass covered only in black spandex is the example that motivates the discussion. Personally, I was interested to see that a college intern would wear it, but I figured she might be going to party on campus later or something that young adults do.

Anyway, homeless people aren't supposed to have a perfect knowledge of the law, or the self-control that lawyers and law professors do. Therefore, it is important to keep dangerous things like loaded guns, switchblades, and sexualized 17 year-olds out of the adult area of the shelter. Do the men there at the shelter not have a reasonable expectation that those in charge will reasonably assure their safety? Isn't that why Russian Roulette is not permitted there?

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Quoting FLee

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My point is that homeless people are not perfect

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No one is "perfect"

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Quoting FLee

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which means there might be scuffles and misconduct between strangers that should not involve the police

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That is up to the parties involved, you do not get to decide if law enforcement is called.

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Quoting FLee

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However with scandals in religious organizations, sports organizations, and schools, it's almost impossible for anyone to not act, arrest, or prosecute when the victim is a minor

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The state needs to act especially if the victim is a minor.

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Quoting FLee

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A schizophrenic or alcoholic man who lands on a sex offender registry has pretty much received a death sentence. Despite these facts, no one here seems outraged at the risk to the homeless men.

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These men are adults responsible for their own actions. This is why we have laws, if they are unable to control their urges then they can suffer the consequences.

Again, if you have such great concern then speak to the parent or a shelter supervisor about the issue.

I find this post to be creepy and predatory in nature because you keep laying the blame at the 17 year olds door instead of being concerned that she may be the target of a sexual assault.
You are either a troll or you are jailward bound.

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Quoting FLee

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homeless people aren't supposed to have a perfect knowledge of the law, or the self-control that lawyers and law professors do. Therefore, it is important to keep dangerous things like loaded guns, switchblades, and sexualized 17 year-olds out of the adult area of the shelter.

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I am rather new to this forum, but I have read a lot of the posts and replies...this is one of the most absurd quotes I have seen.

Ignorance may be bliss but it is not an excuse to break the law and someone's profession, lack thereof or socio-economic standing has absolutely no bearing on them knowing right from wrong.

Please go speak with a shelter supervisor about keeping sexualized women of breeding age out of the mens shelter.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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If you feel so concerned for this girl....maybe you should express that with the parent who brings her to the shelter?

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I have no social relationship with the shelter employee that would make a discussion about her parenting appropriate. And I fear retaliation from her and the staff. However, every citizen is a "mandatory reporter" of sorts. If I believed that her judgement as a parent was criminal, then I would be remiss in confronting her. You have to tell the authorities, not the offender, of evidence of criminal activity. Yes?

Besides, the danger to the child is minimal. I'm fairly certain that she's been groped by a male or two, although minors like herself, not drunken strangers or authority figures. The danger to the mentally ill and the alcoholics was tremendous though. Registered sex offenders receive little sympathy from the public. The danger was than that posed by a loaded handgun in the shelter. I'm sure that has likely happened also, but I have not been aware of it.

How is her judgment as a parent "criminal"? I'm sorry, but spandex pants can be purchased legally in any retail store. Poor decision to let her teen wear that in a homeless shelter? Perhaps.

And no, I don't have any sympathy for sex offenders. I was molested when I was 8. Oh wait, that must be the shorts I was wearing, right? What about babies who are raped? Oh, I guess that diaper was just soooo sexy.

The danger to the mentally ill and alcoholics....please? It's them (according to you) who may grope her. Not she who may grope them. If they can't control their impulses, they belong in prison or mental facility, not a homeless shelter.

Again, bring the girls clothing to the attention of an authority figure in the shelter if you are so concerned. I'm sure you can even write a brief anonymous note and leave it for an authority figure to find.

[QUOTE=FLee;773793]You have to tell the authorities, not the offender, of evidence of criminal activity. Yes?[QUOTE]

She has not committed a crime.

If you fear retaliation then use those typing skills and type up an anonymous letter and leave it for the shelter Administration, supervisor, or her parent.

I am done.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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The danger to the mentally ill and alcoholics....please? It's them (according to you) who may grope her. Not she who may grope them. If they can't control their impulses, they belong in prison or mental facility, not a homeless shelter.

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I think this is the point that should be made, as far as you've explained to us, this would be an 'outpatient' shelter. In other words, the people that stay in this shelter are also out on the streets they are not confined to the shelter. These mentally ill and drug abusers will run into 'sexualized' minors every day out on the streets. If they can't control their impulses under the strict rules and less strict supervision of the shelter, why would they under the much less controlled atmosphere of the outside world?

With all that said, I understand these facilities tend to create a 'reality unto themselves', i was in an 'alternative program' through high school in a place that had both outpatient and residential programs for 'trouble youth'(i was outpatient so returned home daily) and i did some things while there that wouldn't have been acceptable in 'civilized society', but that does not excuse those behaviors and many i SHOULD have been prosecuted for.

I agree with the person i quoted, if they are a risk of sexually assaulting a minor just because she is wearing tight fitting clothing, they need to be in jail or a residental mental health facility, not an outpatient shelter.

[QUOTE=Mephis;773796][QUOTE=FLee;773793]You have to tell the authorities, not the offender, of evidence of criminal activity. Yes?[QUOTE]

She has not committed a crime.[QUOTE]

Agreed. No one committed a crime. However, if a person is aware that a parent is abusing a child, possibly prostituting a child, then the evidence of the crime of child neglect, child endangerment, or child prostitution would not be presented to the suspected offender. I'm not sure why she was dressed as she was, but the content of the child's conversation with me did not reveal that she was looking to have sex with anyone for money.

The central question I would like to have answered is this:

Is the criminal offense and potential penalty of grabbing the ass of a 17 year-old minor female substantially different from the criminal offense and potential penalty of grabbing the ass of an adult female?

Society is very energized to assure that any sexual offense against a child by those in power (religious authorities, coaches, school teachers, etc.) is reported and prosecuted. Therefore, there is no protection of powerless males against any prosecution, regardless of how minimally justified, for an offense against a minor. Where in the sex offender registry is there a space for the offender to say he didn't know she was 17 because 17 year-olds aren't allowed in the adult section of the shelter, and that he was insane or extremely intoxicated at the time? As importantly, where in the process between offense and conviction is there anyone who can say the process should be stopped because the legal and social consequences to the offender are far out of proportion to the offense? I believe it's very dangerous to bring a minor female into an adult area of shelter... very dangerous to the males there.

Have you seen how many hot-spot restaurants dress their employees? Many places will only hire the 21-28 year old crowd. And dress them in spandex short-shorts and a skin tight top, ala Hooters. Does that make it right to grope the waitress? Of course not.

I worked as a bartender for 2 hours at one place. I had to borrow clothes from a friend - the outfit was - sheesh, my bikini covers more. If someone bought a shot, I had to yell "It's shot time!" and flash my boobs. You know what? The men still treated me with respect. No one tried to grope me.

Point being: As the above poster stated - these mentally ill people and alcoholics/druggies are going to encounter it anywhere out of the shelter. What about the teenager wearing pants that say "JUICY" to the grocery store? How about a person with such tight pants that they have a "camel toe"? And let's put that in reverse - how about the male "free balling" in sweat pants at a store? Does he deserve to be groped?

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Quoting FatherKnowsBest

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I agree with the person i quoted, if they are a risk of sexually assaulting a minor just because she is wearing tight fitting clothing, they need to be in jail or a residental mental health facility, not an outpatient shelter.

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Minors aren't permitted in the adult area of the shelter.

If she looks like a college intern and an alcoholic or schizophrenic gropes her, then is he guilty of wrongly touching an adult female, or a minor child?

Are you going to stand up and say the police should not be called?

The child can't say she's okay and not to call the police because she is a child.

The parent can say the police should not be called, but then that means the police might have to be called twice... once because the minor was groped and once because the parent tried to stop the incident from being reported.

How do you stop the legal process once the minor's ass is grabbed, even if the offender thought she was an adult?

What's the life expectancy of an alcoholic or schizophrenic once he is placed on the registered sex offender list?

If a minor is not allowed in the area, then it's not an issue.....