Grandparents Rights in Massachusetts

My question involves Grandparents Rights in the State of MASSACHUSETTS

My son is with and quite possibly married to a girl who does not like me and never has...for reasons known only to her. All she has done is badmouth me from the start of their relations ship, almost 2 yrs now.
During this time, she done everything humanly possibly to fractured the relationship I have with my son AND his relationship with the rest of our family, to the point where it was totally impossible for me to see or speak to him unless it was behind her back. Then upon her finding this out she would launch into another tirade of mostly directed at me, and mostly for her friends benefit, in order to make me out as the mother in law from hell you hear jokes about.

I, on the other had have kept away from her, not saying a word thru all of this because of my fear of her going after my son,..so I/we let her rant and ramble on with NO response or comment from me and very few comments from the rest of the family. In fact there has been absolutely no contact between either her or myself since she stormed out of my house one day, for reason unknown to me at the time..

Seems she realized I had found out that 'all the rumors' people had told me about her were 100% true ...and I now had proof that her entire Life and the person she portrays herself to be, is all a huge lie and she is afraid I would let my son know the truth (I DID NOT...he knows most of it now and this he has found out on his own and from others...not from me)

She is currently expecting my son's 1st child any day now (she has 4 of her own) and is threatening to NEVER EVER let me see my grandson.
She and my son have had various arguments and fights over me & now this...Once to the point she punched my son in the face repeatedly while driving at 60mph on the highway causing him to crash his car and total it ...My son has never laid a hand on her and never will...he knows better than that. (Besides I think his sisters would kill him if he did!
Thankfully no one got seriously hurt ..or worse! He simply got out of the car and left her there, walking away and calling for a family member to come pick him up...an btw, this is not the 1st time he has walked away from her either!

My son has finally put his foot down and told her : "ENOUGH,... that is my mother and even if I hated her guts, she (meaning me) is still *my* mother and she WILL be in my son's life..so you can either deal with it or get over it.... I suggest you get over it..and get over it NOW"

Since then she has been using my still un-born grandson (due any day now) as a "pawn", basically to hold on to my son. And seeing that I raised a caring son, one who has fallen in love with her other 4 boys, (whose own 3 father's are not involved in their lives at all, they do not even pay to support them, my son does it all), and now that he is also going to have a child of his own, I know he just cannot leave and walk away....mostly because of those boys.

I know my son will allow me to see my grandson, because he & I have spoken about this at length, probably by bringing him here to see to me. Even so I just want to be prepared and know my rights if she suddenly finds out (and she will eventually) and starts causing problems for my son and my grandson.
I have 2 other grandchildren and besides their Mom & Dad, Uncles and Aunts (my other kids) I am the "Center of their World"...(not bragging, just saying how close they are to me.)
I want to be able to have this same relationship with my son's child but I know 'she' will not allow it ...

My question is this: I KNOW I have Grandparents rights in Massachusetts...but I have also heard if they child lives in an 'intact family'....where the parents reside together, whether they are married or not, Grandparents Rights do not apply.

Hopefully my son will stand up to her and finally put his foot down ending this Nonsense once and for all (and Im sure you are all thinking where I *want* him to put his foot, lol) But if he cant because she will use this child as a pawn against him.
She doesn't like me because I know her lies and don't believe the stories she uses to cover them up ... she is afraid I will 'out' her past...which by the way, for a young girl of 26/27 is absolutely horrible! ( I'll give you one of the 'nicer examples' of the stuff she lies about in her life...all 4 of her own boys have been taken from her numerous times for serious Neglect & Abuse..and the ONLY reason she has them back now is because of my son....I also don't want my son & grandson being victims because of her and her past experiences with DFC...)

She doesn't like me, I get it...I don't like her...she doesn't want to see me, I don't want to see her....and believe me I have tried to fix this...Its just never gonna happen. I just want to be able to always see my grandson.....

Hopefully it wont get to the point where I have to go to court against her, if it does my son and the rest of the family will side with me against her, (again,this has already been discussed at length) Hopefully everything will turn out fine... Unfortunately I really don't see this happening...

But just in case it doesn't, I want to know what other options, if any, I may have to see my grandson.
Any advice /options would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you in Advance <3

No, you don't have rights. What you may have is standing to sue for visitation.

You would have to sue BOTH parties. And when you lose, you'll likely never see your grandson until he's an adult.

Because there is no existing relationship, and you hold such obvious animosity towards Mom (seriously - you've gotta stop that), you won't win.

Your only option is to play nice with Mom. And that includes butting out of her relationship with your son.

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I'll be brutally honest here. It's somewhat...creepy...that you believe you're the center of your other grandchildren's lives. That's not your role.

Honestly I hold NO animosity towards her..I'm sorry if I sound like that...I was just trying to give some background to the situation

This past weekend I threw a baby shower for her...practically going broke in the process..(I'm on Soc. Sec.)
I got ignored by her... it was as if she was totally un-interested..especially when it came to all the gifts I gave her....she got up and walked away leaving my son to open them.

Yes I admit I don't like her ...but I have never done or said anything to be mean to her..or given her any reason for her to act this way towards me.
She got arrested and sent to prison because she could not afford bail and 'I'm' the one who Bailed her out... Her own family wants no part of her...
IF thats "Animosity" then Yes, Im guilty of it....otherwise I am just HURT and TOTALLY FRUSTRATED.

And I didn't mean it like that ...being the 'Center of their World'.
They love being with me, light up when they see me, come running to me, they cry when I leave...etc etc etc... I babysit them every day while both their parents work and have since the day they were born.

I am their grandmother after all and grandmothers love their grandchildren and spoil them and if you find that creepy maybe you should talk to their mom & dad about it because they say it all the time.

And thank you for correcting me...saying its "Visitation" not 'Grandparents Rights' that I should be asking about about.
I am obviously new to all this Legal Stuff... and to this site.

EDITED TO ADD: as far as me "butting out of her relationship with my son".. I don't get involved with it in any way..in fact we hardly talk about her in any way except for me asking about how she's doing and how is the baby ...etc. All things any person would normally ask...
If you suggesting I 'butt out' by refusing to allow my son to come visit me ..which he does.. that aint happening!

I know you're frustrated and hurt. But the Constitution allows for the parent/s to be in absolute control of who they allow around their child. This can only be successfully challenged if certain criteria are met.

The most common "rule" is that the grandparent must be able to show an existing bond between themselves and the child and that the child would be harmed if visitation wasn't granted. While it's possible to obtain a court order without having that bond, these cases are extremely rare and generally have very unusual circumstances.

Not to mention expensive.

Realistically, this falls on your son.

That's what I want....I WANT a bond with my grandson...but how am I suppose to have one if she intends to keep him from me....for no reason at all ?
my son WANTS that bond too.. and if he wants it too.. then why would I lose?
Also, why would I have to sue BOTH of them if he is siding on my/our side against her?

Im confused (like I said I am new to all this Legal Stuff...and just trying to see what my options are if it comes to this)
As far as the expense is concerned ...that will Not be an option.

Edited to add: Can I ask how you know all about this Stuff..I mean are you a lawyer or something?
Don't get me wrong... I appreciate your replies and knowledge on the laws !


Don't you think that child would be harmed , emotionally, when he see the relationship between myself and my other grandkids and then realizes it is not the way for him..and starts wondering "why doesn't my grandma love me like that?"

I think it would be emotionally hurtful for him not to have a bond with me. I think it would hurt any child who was denied access to a grandparent..
I know for a fact it would because my mom did that to me and my siblings (unintentionally..she had no choice but to abide by my grandfathers rules as we were living in his house) when we were young.. We never knew ANYONE on my dad's side growing up...until one day I met a cousin in HS at the age of 13..My sisters and I have only recently begun to met our Dad's side ...well all those left alive anyway.

Okay. Let's back up a second.

So far, there is no child. Once the child is born, your son needs to establish paternity. This gives the baby two legal parents. If you want to sue for visitation rights, you have to sue both parents.

If your son is siding with you, what's stopping him from getting an enforceable visitation plan and bringing the baby to you during his parenting time?

Neither Mom nor your son need a reason to deny you visitation. Their rights absolutely trump yours, 100%.

And before we go there, I have three grandkids. I'd hate it if I never saw them - but I'd have to acknowledge that it just isn't MY decision. It's up to their parents. Completely and utterly.

Truly, your option (and there's really only one) is to play nice with Mom. Other than that, your son is free to bring the baby to you during his parenting time.

Grandparents - as painful as it might seem - have to understand one very basic but fundamental law: you're at the mercy of your son or daughter. We have no inherent rights.

And the truth is, the grandparents who end up suing are generally the sort of grandparents you don't actually want in your life.

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No, it will NOT harm the child. The child is completely and utterly unaware of your existence. The only way that child will feel anything negative is when he hears something from one of the adults involved.

what if mom wont "play"..
as in the case here.

I cant force her...them she could say I'm harassing her..etc...
which I thnk could be true if I were to try to force her to 'play"

I didnt even get a Hello or Thank you ...nothing at all from her at the baby shower...it was like I was invisible to her. And I know better than to push it...

I did go up and give her a hug goodbye...She pushed me off like I had a disease or something
Others who saw it and went "WOW..are you kidding me??"...
Its totally embarrassing and frustrating..especially when you have done nothing to deserve it.. But it was all our side of family and they all know whats been going on with her ..cuz they've seen it 1st hand
Only her mom and a younger sister came from everyone invited on her side..and even they didn't speak to her.. Go figure!

as for his Parenting time /schedule: My son works from 6 am till about 8pm ..6-.7 days a week ..then has to run home to take care of her kids, make diner and get the boys to bed, cuz she's usually 'done' by then and asleep on the couch..(according to my son)
Im hoping it just from being tired due to her pregnancy..

but what you're basically saying is
1) my son has to establish paternity (we already have that in mind) and 2) he can just go into court and say "I want my mom to see the baby x times a week" or something like that despite what she wants..?
Otherwise I have to sue them both?

Oh the child will know about me ...cuz he will be involved with his cousin, so he will basically only see me with them If this doesn't change.. He deserves the same bond they have with me

>>Grandparents - as painful as it might seem - have to understand one very basic but fundamental law: you're at the mercy of your son or daughter. We have no inherent rights <<

im starting to figure this out..I am so lucky to have my daughter and son in (parents of my other 2 gks) be the way they are..
Family is very important and always has been with my kids growing up..

and yes it does Hurt, not knowing your relatives...Especially when you finally meet them years later ... like I said I know from personal experience.

I have to go but I will be back to see your response and talk to you more..You are very helpful and knowledgable and I appreciate it very much.

My son just walked in , unannounced as usual, and wants to know "What is there to eat"...
she's vegan and he's a meat-eater..
I think he's had enough pasta this week and is looking for 'PRE-Thankgiving Anything' to nibble on right now..lol

Thank you so much..I look forward to your reply!
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours tomorrow :-)

NO. What I'm saying is, you son needs to establish paternity and get his OWN visitation schedule. Then he can bring the child to you during his parenting time. He will not get a clause added addressing spending time with you.

Look, please take this the way it's intended. But yes, you're coming across as far too involved in your son's life, and yes, you're basically trying to override the parent's rights.

Please, save your money. You will not win this one - and when you lose (because you will), you'll have alienated Mom for life and she's going to do anything in her power (including moving out of state) to make sure her child has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Let your son handle his own paternity and visitation matters. Step back. Mom obviously feels there's a reason why she doesn't want you around. Keep pushing this, and you're going to confirm her opinion.

It IS possible to get an order actually restraining you from being around the child.

Why would he need a visitation schedule if he lives with the child?

Im not trying to override anyone's right...my son CAME to me/us on this ...this is His idea ...
He wants me to be in the baby's life...whether she likes it or not..

Like I said Money will not be an Option.
Family already has a "Lawyer on Retainer" for Free.
His sister will most likely be talking to the lawyer for my son (should he not show up for Dinner) ..as per my sons instructions...over thanksgiving dinner

My house is between my sons work and his house.. so he does stop by from time to time unannounced..
Tonight he came over to bring me new Windshield Wipers (he's a mechanic) due to the inpending storm..he knows I need to drive his niece and nephew in the morning while I drive his sister /their mom to work

And as for her moving out of State.. She can, but her kids can Not.
DCF has Custody of the other 4 boys and will not allow them out of state...not for anything! If she goes she has no choice but to leave the kids behind ..she does not have custody of her kids...my son has 'Placement', not her!

My son is the one who is going to get the DNA/paternity testing done..(his idea.. Im not getting involved in any of this at all...Expect for what he tell me and his sister )... just in case there is any Issue with her from DCF in the future or if he does decide to get up and leave her..

and yes I know she could get an RO on me if she wanted to if I were to do anything to her... But Im not that crazy or Stupid
With her track record/past history with the courts.. I don't think they'd give her one just 'because'..
she would have to have positive proof I tried to harm her or something..(that isn't happening)
She tried to get one her sister last year..for absolutely no reason other than the fact they had had 'words' during a disagreement..and ended up not only NOT getting the RO but being 'arrested & convicted' for Threatening to Commit Murder..
I don't think she wants to be in a court room at all...

Have a great thanksgiving !

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Quoting Yiayia

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Why would he need a visitation schedule if he lives with the child?

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Because frankly if you keep pushing this, Mom is going to disappear. If he doesn't have a visitation order, he's going to find it nigh on impossible to see the child. If she thinks the choice is "Let my Mom see the child, or I'm done with you", guess what she's going to pick? Not your son.

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Im not trying to override anyone's right...my son CAME to me/us on this ...this is His idea ...
He wants me to be in the baby's life...whether she likes it or not..

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The first part and the last part don't meld.

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Like I said Money will not be an Option.
Family already has a "Lawyer on Retainer" for Free.
His sister will most likely be talking to the lawyer for my son (should he not show up for Dinner) ..as per my sons instructions...over thanksgiving dinner

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I'm wondering if at this point Mom is going to pull an ace from her sleeve and say that your son isn't the father.

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My house is between my sons work and his house.. so he does stop by from time to time unannounced..
Tonight he came over to bring me new Windshield Wipers (he's a mechanic) due to the inpending storm..he knows I need to drive his niece and nephew in the morning while I drive his sister /their mom to work

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That's nice.

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And as for her moving out of State.. She can, but her kids can Not.

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Don't bet on it.

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DCF has Custody of the other 4 boys and will not allow them out of state...not for anything! If she goes she has no choice but to leave the kids behind ..she does not have custody of her kids...my son has 'Placement', not her!

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Your son has placement of someone else's kids? Expect that to change the very second they break up.

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My son is the one who is going to get the DNA/paternity testing done..(his idea.. Im not getting involved in any of this at all...Expect for what he tell me and his sister )... just in case there is any Issue with her from DCF in the future or if he does decide to get up and leave her..

and yes I know she could get an RO on me if she wanted to if I were to do anything to her... But Im not that crazy or Stupid
With her track record/past history with the courts.. I don't think they'd give her one just 'because'..
she would have to have positive proof I tried to harm her or something..(that isn't happening)

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Not quite. Getting an RO against an adult is one thing. Getting an RO against an adult on behalf of your child is something else completely. Mom absolutely does not need to prove that you're a threat - all she needs to do is show that you're overstepping your boundaries and won't leave her alone. The court will err on the side of caution.

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She tried to get one her sister last year..for absolutely no reason other than the fact they had had 'words' during a disagreement..and ended up not only NOT getting the RO but being 'arrested & convicted' for Threatening to Commit Murder..

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See previous answer.

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I don't think she wants to be in a court room at all...

Have a great thanksgiving !

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Here's what I predict is going to happen.

Your son pushes her to allow visitation for you. Mom ups and leaves before your son establishes paternity. Or, before there's any order in place.

You do realize that absent a court order she doesn't have to allow your son visitation, yes?

Let's review:

Child not yet born - hence no bond.
Child not at risk.
Child's alleged father still with Mom (and if you think for one flat second he'll pick you over her...well, it's basically proving Mom's point, isn't it?)
Child's alleged grandparent is overbearing and wants to push into Mom's life to an unhealthy degree.

Do you still think you have a shot?

Okay, let's assume that somehow you get your own visitation order.

If Mom ignores the order and still won't let you see the child, what do you believe will happen? She won't go to jail. Custody won't be switched. She might get a fine. If Mom moves away, what are you going to do? Law enforcement won't touch a grandparent visitation case. The court won't find her for you.

I have a feeling you're not taking any notice anyway, but in case you are, this needs to be said:

If I was Mom, I'd be fighting tooth and nail not only to make sure you don't get any visitation, but also that Dad can't bring the child around you.