Is a Studio Apartment Acceptable for Visitation with Joint Custody

My question involves a child custody case from the State of: CA
My ex will be moving into a studio apartment with our six and eleven year old daughters. We share 50/50 custody. Along with several issues we've been having with our custody schedule I'm not happy at all that the girls will be in such a small space. How do the courts usually feel about parents living in a studio with no private space for the kids? To add we have no formal custody order we have always just shared 50/50 for the last three years although I'm currently filing paperwork to have a court order child custody agreement.

Kids don't need "private space," they need shelter. If he's providing shelter, that's all he needs to do. The court's don't care that he has a studio apartment and he won't be required to meet your requirements either.

Wow ok I guess kids just need "shelter". Like dogs I suppose. Not my requirements just thinking how how kids must feel about dad getting studio when he can afford more and wont give them what they need. There's more to being a dad than just providing shelter and if the courts don't see that then we have a very flawed and sad system.

So do you suggest that the courts take away all children of parents who have their kids in a studio apartment or is it just your kids who don't deserve to see their father because his apartment is small? What happens if both parents only have a studio apartment? Do the kids go into foster care?

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I'll say this. You already sound as if you're going into this divorce as a bitter and stubborn woman. That attitude isn't going to serve your children well. Your kids need to see parents who will coparent regardless of what caused the breakup of their marriage because that's YOUR personal issue, not something the kids should be more collateral damage of than you've already made them.

But if you believe dad should have a bigger place, how come you don't help him pay for a bigger place?

I'm hardly bitter lol. I've co-parented with my ex for over three years. He has changed and been checked out for almost a year now with his own personal issues and the kids have paid the price for it. In fact he got a studio to save money so he can move two hours away to live with his girlfriend at the end of the next school year. I have begged and pleaded for him to Not to move. So you see your very wrong about who I am and what it is I'm looking for. I'm not ok with him having the kids 50 percent of the time with him living in a studio apartment. Im not ok with him leaving the kids with other people on his custody days, forgetting were they are and asking me if i have them. He can take them every other weekend absolutely. But my kids need more than he's willing to provide I feel. So thank you for trying to help answer my question but you sound like an ass and hopefully someone else can provide me with helpful tips or information.

[QUOTE=Lunatink;755154]My question involves a child custody case from the State of: CA

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My ex will be moving into a studio apartment with our six and eleven year old daughters

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. for a minute I freaked. Given the main question and why it might be relevant to your situation, I started reading that as; with 6 of our 11 daughters.

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We share 50/50 custody. Along with several issues we've been having with our custody schedule I'm not happy at all that the girls will be in such a small space. How do the courts usually feel about parents living in a studio with no private space for the kids? To add we have no formal custody order we have always just shared 50/50 for the last three years although I'm currently filing paperwork to have a court order child custody agreement

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so, what's your problem? Granted it is not the best situation for them but at least it isn't a refrigerator box along side the road. Do you want to give dad enough money so she can get a bigger apartment? If not, worry about things that matter; clean, safe, warm. After that, the rest is window dressing.

Helpful tip: Get therapy. Your children don't care that he lives in a studio and a lot can happen between now and the end of the school year, but if he chooses to move 2 hours away, then he's perfectly able to do so. But look at it this way... if he moves 2 hours away, he can't exercise 50/50.

I want him to have 50/50. I want him to share custody with me. All I'm asking is that he live in the same city, keep them on his custody days, and and least get a one bedroom for the girls. If he cant do those things then i would like to see of I can get full custody and him every other weekend visitation. But your wrong if you think the kids don't care. They do because they can see the parents priority choices.

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Quoting Lunatink

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I want him to have 50/50. I want him to share custody with me. All I'm asking is that he live in the same city, keep them on his custody days, and and least get a one bedroom for the girls. If he cant do those things then i would like to see of I can get full custody and him every other weekend visitation. But your wrong if you think the kids don't care. They do because they can see the parents priority choices.

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At least one bedroom? No, the court just isn't going to care at the moment.

Once the girls hit puberty? That might be a different matter entirely.

One little note - kids generally don't care unless the parent makes a huge issue of it. Then they feel torn - do I agree with Mom, or do I stick up for Dad?

Why is it that everyone thinks mom and dad create issues in the kids minds? I'm astonished! Its not like that in all cases. Kids when raised correctly are taught to think and feel for themselves. They don't need mom and dad to tell them how to feel. They are perceptive, smart and very aware of their emotional and physical needs. My older daughter hit puberty a year and half ago so it does make her feel uncomfortable to be living in a studio and still sleeping with her little sister. And if my ex was half the father he was for the first two years of our separation I would not being pushing this issue.

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Quoting Lunatink

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Why is it that everyone thinks mom and dad create issues in the kids minds? I'm astonished! Its not like that in all cases. Kids when raised correctly are taught to think and feel for themselves. They don't need mom and dad to tell them how to feel. They are perceptive, smart and very aware of their emotional and physical needs. My older daughter hit puberty a year and half ago so it does make her feel uncomfortable to be living in a studio and still sleeping with her little sister. And if my ex was half the father he was for the first two years of our separation I would not being pushing this issue.

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Re-read my response. :cool:

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Quoting Lunatink

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I want him to have 50/50. I want him to share custody with me. All I'm asking is that he live in the same city, keep them on his custody days, and and least get a one bedroom for the girls. If he cant do those things then i would like to see of I can get full custody and him every other weekend visitation. But your wrong if you think the kids don't care. They do because they can see the parents priority choices.

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gee, why not ask that he wash your car every week and change the oil every 3 months as well.


You do not get to demand he live in the same city. Guaranteed he will be allowed to move some distance away if he so chooses without there being an adverse affect on the custody issue.

You cannot demand he take the children on his permitted days nor can he demand you take them on yours. After enough of that it would eventually be a basis for a modification but in the short term; not within your control

a 1 bedroom would be nice but not necessary nor legally required. A 2 bedroom would be nicer. A 3 bedroom would allow everybody to have their own rooms. A 4,5,6 or more bedroom would allow for a play room, a room for overnight guests, and anything else they want but the courts are just not going to go there.

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Quoting Lunatink

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My older daughter hit puberty a year and half ago so it does make her feel uncomfortable to be living in a studio and still sleeping with her little sister.

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you have my sympathy to have a daughter that entered puberty at 9 1/2. Obviously that is very early and it is hard enough when they are a bit more mature.

but what does that have to do with being uncomfortable sharing a bed with her sister? It's not like her little sister is going to attack because she can "smell" the hormones the older daughter is giving off. At 11, regardless of her entering puberty, her mind is still 11 years old and will have the maturity of an 11 yo. The argument doesn't hold much weight in the overall issue.

Honestly? The 11 year old's feelings may well be valid if push came to shove in court.

If your 11 year old doesn't want to share a bed with her 6 year old sister, buy an air mattress or a sleeping bag for one of them and have them sleep on the floor on the other side of the room. Problem solved. Tell her it's a camp out.

Seriously, if you start making demands like this in front of a judge, you're going to find yourself the noncustodial parent because it will be PERCEIVED that you are trying to give dad unnecessary grief and too much unnecessary grief, whether intentional or not gives a judge the impression that you are not willing to coparent PEACEFULLY... and that means the other parent probably needs to be primary.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Honestly? The 11 year old's feelings may well be valid if push came to shove in court.

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No it wouldn't. You know why? Because if dad can't afford a larger home regardless of WHY he can't afford it, he's not going to be penalized for it. Not in CA, he's not. They're extremely bleeding heart when it comes to finances and housing, especially these days.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Honestly? The 11 year old's feelings may well be valid if push came to shove in court.

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It will probably cause a judge to go;

maybe you need to think about this



I cannot see a judge ordering dad to obtain different housing though.

So it's wrong of me to want the kids dad to not move because he will see less of the kids? It's wrong of me to be upset that he moved our girls into a studio to save money to move away from them when its to live with his girlfriend? It's wrong of my girls to be upset because they have no personal space and know that their dad is doing it to save money to live with his girlfriend two hours away? And it's wrong of me to want full physical custody if he isn't giving our girls at least a one bedroom they share along with several other issues that i brought up. I'm surprised I have to defend myself when it's me only trying to look out for the kids. I don't want them to not see their dad I just don't want them to be unhappy and angry at their father because of his choices. I think their time would be much more enjoyable together if he had them on the weekends.

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Lunatink;755194]So it's wrong of me to want the kids dad to not move because he will see less of the kids?

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what? How can you even ask that when you are threatening to seek primary custody with dad have every other weekend visitation?

How about making up your mind as to what the problem is?

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It's wrong of me to be upset that he moved our girls into a studio to save money to move away from them when its to live with his girlfriend?

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yep. It's called; controlling

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It's wrong of my girls to be upset because they have no personal space and know that their dad is doing it to save money to live with his girlfriend two hours away?

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I'll give you partial credit for that one.

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And it's wrong of me to want full physical custody if he isn't giving our girls at least a one bedroom they share along with several other issues that i brought up

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.Yes, absolutely.

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I'm surprised I have to defend myself when it's me only trying to look out for the kids.

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but you really aren't. The curtain has been pulled back. You are using this issue to attempt to gain primary custody.

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I think their time would be much more enjoyable together if he had them on the weekends.

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and there is yet another excuse. Will he magically have an extra bedroom if he has them only on the weekends? Obviously not.

If I was always after full custody I would have done it long ago. Let me again lay it out for you. My ex and I have co-parented beautifully for over two years. No issues at all what so ever. Last year he met a girl in a different city. I have no issues at all as my partner who I've dated for two years lives three hours away. Once my ex started dating this woman he was seeing less and less of our girls. From January to May of this year I had them 80 percent because he wanted to give me the kids instead of him taking them. My daughters started to become more and more emotionally upset. My older daughter was uncomfortable that her dad rushed things with this girl and she was feeling that he made no time for her. Because they were seeing their dad less and he would forget the girls father daughter dance, soccer games, and leave them with me or his family to be with his girlfriend. I talked to my ex over and over expressing that the girls feel left behind, that you don't listen to their needs, and that they are crying and don't feel important. I pleaded with him for months and when he said he would be moving at the end of the school year my heart is broken for my girls. No one wants to see their little girls not feel important to the one person that should always be there for them. Since he decided to move into a studio at the end of this month I have also faced other issues. When my six year old was sick and vomiting she was crying for me. Instead of having her call me so I can calm her down he told her "quit complaining your moms not here". And he also told the girls that I need to get a job so he doesn't have to pay me more child support. Now a year ago I had brain surgery and am on disability for the moment. There isn't anything I can change in regards to child support. However he should have never told our girls that. Lastly, two weeks ago on his visitation days he called me asking if I had the girls. He had left town and had forgotten who had the kids. On the weekends he takes them to his girlfriends place and they sleep on the couch. With my partner living three hours away i will not be moving away from my kids. I also do not take them to my partners place during the school year because its not fair to them and it takes away from the downtime they need. The girls are very upset and so am I that he's choosing to move. If that's controlling well I don't see how that is. He was in a two bedroom and now is in a studio plus I have all these other emotional issues. So maybe now with all this in perspective maybe you can see that I'm not some swindling bitter ex. And yes for me I think that if he doesn't want to give the girls at least their own room then they would be much better off in my opinion not being cramped five days a week in a studio apartment trying to make space and quiet time for school work, personal space for my older daughter, and sleep. Two nights a week on a weekend would be better and more feasible for the kids needs.

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My daughters started to become more and more emotionally upset.

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so be a mom and console them by informing them that we all have lives to deal with in addition to our children. This is an opportunity to shine as a parent rather than turn it into a lesson on contempt.

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When my six year old was sick and vomiting she was crying for me. Instead of having her call me so I can calm her down he told her "quit complaining your moms not here"

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and you heard this or was it related to you by somebody that may be giving you their interpretation of what was said?

and dad isn't capable of being a dad and calming her down?



You keep changing your stance; he is a great dad BUT he in incapable of taking care of the kids without me

I want him to have as much time as possible BUT if he doesn't do what I want, I'm going to take away his time

And because I'm getting some responses I have a second question. Since we have no formal custody agreement at all we are in a disput about the holidays. He had them last Christmas Eve and Christmas morning. He also has had them for the last four Christmas Eves till at least 9:00pm. This year I'm asking for a full Christmas Eve and Christmas morning till 10:00am. He is unwilling to do so. So since I'm in the middle of completing the divorce and custody paperwork to file I'm sure we won't get a custody hearing before the holidays... How do I handle the Christmas disput? Do I just document it and present it before the judge after the fact?

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Of course he capable but why tell the six year old "stop complaining and asking for mom". How is that co-parenting??!

How is relying on you during HIS parenting time co-parenting?

The child needs to learn coping skills.

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How do I handle the Christmas disput?

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If there is no order dictating who what where and when, then you decide between the two of you. If you can't agree, then you don't make a huge issue about it such that the kids become involved. If he has the kids and won't relinquish them, there really isn't anything you can do. Same goes if it is the other way around.

Yes, document that. Given the history, it is a sign of lack of working together in the best interest of the children and fairness. Don't expect it to be a big issue but simply one bit of information a court will use to make any decisions.



just want to toss this out there so you can see I am not coming from a place of ignorance.



I have a couple daughters (no sons). They each had their own rooms. That never stopped them from wandering through the house in various stages of dress, or undress, never being concerned about me seeing them. It never bothered me and it never bothered them. Getting dressed? Whoops, need the bra out of the dryer, just ignore me as I walk through the house 1/2 naked. Yes, they were afforded privacy in their rooms if needed but generally, that was only needed when they wanted to study without interference. If something was going on they really expected privacy, the bathroom offered that. Does dad have a bathroom?




I just realized something. If dad had a 1 bedroom, who do you think would be "assigned" the bedroom and who do you think would be in the living room on the couch or air mattress? I would bet that dad would have the bedroom and the girls would be in the other areas, just like they are right now. So, would you demand he rent a 2 bedroom apartment upon realizing this?

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Quoting Lunatink

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Of course he capable but why tell the six year old "stop complaining and asking for mom". How is that co-parenting??!

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it's called; fulfilling the role of a father.

Did you call dad the last time either girl was sick so dad could console them? I suspect not. Why? maybe because you are quite capable of dealing with a sick child without their father needing to be involved.


seriously, the more you post, the more you show this is not about dad's studio apartment but you wanting to control the situation.

Get the kids some therapy and learn coping skills. You cannot control what dad does or where he chooses to live or demand he continue 50/50 and share custody. Those days are over, you are not together anymore. Be the very best parent you can be on your own parenting time.

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Quoting Lunatink

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It's wrong of my girls to be upset because they....., know that their dad is doing it to save money to live with his girlfriend two hours away?.

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You know what's wrong? A 6yo and 11yo thinking that way, because I've got news - kids don't have ANY concept of issues such as this unless it's brought to their attention.

No, you don't get a say re: where dad lives. Two hours away is nothing overall.

You aren't getting sympathetic responses because you're coming across as wanting to dictate how dad parents, where he lives, and want to attempt to take punitive measures because you want him to live and parent according to your terms. You are, however, receiving legally correct responses.

And courts see this crap every single day. You throw all of this at the court you're most likely going to be in for a shock. Tell the judge that s/he is being an ass for calling a spade a spade when you get called out on the carpet.

You can throw a snot bubble fit all you want, doesn't mean that you're right or that the court is going to toss your fit right back in your face.

As an aside, I'm always amused when CPs and NCPs think they know what the other parent can afford.

Snot bubble fit? That. Is. AWESOME.

I gotta use that! :D

It's all the same people responding and getting off on the rude condescending hateful comments. Who knew such a wacko forum existed! Thanks everyone enjoy your advice boners ;)

It is wrong for you to hold others to the level of expectation you feel is appropriate. CA has entire families living in one room hotel rooms. Go find someone else ankles to bite.

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Quoting Lunatink

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It's all the same people responding and getting off on the rude condescending hateful comments. Who knew such a wacko forum existed! Thanks everyone enjoy your advice boners ;)

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Translation:

I know I'm in the wrong so I'm going to take a tantrum.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Snot bubble fit? That. Is. AWESOME.

I gotta use that! :D

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LOL

Happy to amuse. :)

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Quoting Lunatink

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Wow ok I guess kids just need "shelter". Like dogs I suppose. Not my requirements just thinking how how kids must feel about dad getting studio when he can afford more and wont give them what they need. There's more to being a dad than just providing shelter and if the courts don't see that then we have a very flawed and sad system.

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Well, since the law doesn't allow us to take kids who are living in cars with their parents, or kids that share a bedroom with a sibling, the kids aren't going to be taken simply because they have to camp out in the living room. If the standard was a room for each child, or even one room for two children, then CPS would be overwhelmed with children in custody. Not everyone has a home where they have the luxury of one or two kids per room.

The law requires shelter for children. The law doesn't generally require shelter for a dog. What your personal requirements might be or what you'd like them to be are not a legal concern.

Now, if the kids were in foster care, they would be required to have a room. But, that's a different situation.

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Quoting Lunatink

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So it's wrong of me to want the kids dad to not move because he will see less of the kids?

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It's not "wrong" to be bothered that he might see less of them, but it's not possible to compel him to stay where he is or even to compel him to get a bigger place. And people make financial choices all the time - even when they have kids. There's no legal or common sense requirement to go broke just because you have kids. If a smaller place saves money, great. Maybe he and the girlfriend will save their money and eventually get a bigger place with the savings. Who knows?

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Quoting Lunatink

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And because I'm getting some responses I have a second question. Since we have no formal custody agreement at all we are in a disput about the holidays. He had them last Christmas Eve and Christmas morning. He also has had them for the last four Christmas Eves till at least 9:00pm. This year I'm asking for a full Christmas Eve and Christmas morning till 10:00am. He is unwilling to do so. So since I'm in the middle of completing the divorce and custody paperwork to file I'm sure we won't get a custody hearing before the holidays... How do I handle the Christmas disput? Do I just document it and present it before the judge after the fact?

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If there is no court order for custody and visitation then neither of you are required to abide my anything. You can simply say "no" ... but, then, he can always pick them up to come with him and play the same game. Ultimately, if the kids become pawns in a pissing match, CPS can take them as there is a provision in CA law for just such a thing.

It's better to work with him in some way rather than go into court with one or both of you seeming intransigent and/or immature.

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Quoting Lunatink

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Why is it that everyone thinks mom and dad create issues in the kids minds? I'm astonished! Its not like that in all cases. Kids when raised correctly are taught to think and feel for themselves. They don't need mom and dad to tell them how to feel. They are perceptive, smart and very aware of their emotional and physical needs.

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Mom you are quite mistaken and possibly delusional. Kids ARE perceptive and how they perceive things is very influenced by their developmental level. Trust me that no matter how much you think you taught them to feel and think for themselves, that ability is nowhere on par with an adult's ability to think and reason. In fact it's not uncommon for children the age of your youngest to feel responsible for just about everything bad that happens in their lives and family.

Now play nice with dad and learn to be a good co-parent. Your kids don't deserve the stress of seeing you and your ex bickering.