Can You Drink Alcohol in a Bar Without Carrying ID

My question involves criminal law for the state of: OKLAHOMA

I'm sorry if this gets a little long winded, but I have been having beef with how vague Oklahoma laws are...

So my first basic simple question is this... to get in trouble for something (like a ticket) don't you have to be breaking a written law? I mean isn't that why we have laws written down to avoid confusion and something to refer back to? That seems like a no brainer question, but I swear I feel like Oklahoma doesn't feel that way.

That applies to many things I've tried to research here, but this is just one simple example.... I'm told by cops and everyone that it's illegal to be in a bar here drinking without an ID on you and that you can get a ticket for it if you don't. Ok that seems pretty cut and dry clear, but I can't find anywhere in any of the laws (Oklahoma's, Tulsa's, or ABLEs which is the department that handles alcohol laws and enforcement in OK) a statute that actually says that. I've also been trying to find someone who might have been given a ticket for that offence to see if maybe a specific statute or code is listed on it to refer back to... but no luck so far.

One law I did find regarding age and alcohol on ABLEs site is
604. Sale of alcoholic beverages or low-point beer—Notice to employees
1. Prohibits the sale or distribution of alcoholic beverages and low-point beer to any
person under twenty-one (21) years of age and the purchase or receipt of alcoholic
beverages and low-point beer by any person under twenty-one (21) years of age; and
2. Requires that proof of age be demanded from a prospective purchaser or recipient
if an ordinary person would conclude on the basis of appearance that the prospective
purchaser or recipient may be under twenty-one (21) years of age.

So going by that if a 88 year old patron entered the bar and it was obvious he looked 88 a bar wouldn't need to ID him and therefore would never even knew if he had an ID on him, so if he didn't and an officer wanted to come in and actually check could he get in trouble, could the bar get in trouble??


And finally say I was in a bar drinking and I'm legally 21 but I didn't have an ID on me and got a ticket and it didn't point to any specific law that says I have to have an ID in a bar on it, I could exercise my right to a jury trial for the offense couldn't I? Because I know I sure as hell would as I feel like i'm not alone in this state as far as sharing a disgust for how vague laws and ordinances are.

- - - Updated - - -

Somehow my title changed.... I didn't title it that! And it won't let me change it back....

It is illegal to possess or consume alcohol if you are under 21. There's no requirement that you have ID. Of course the bar is under no obligation (and in most cases would be foolish) to serve you without proof of age. If you get a ticket for underage consumption, it is because the officer has probable cause that you are age. It should be a slam dunk defense to show via ID, birth certificate, whatever that you are of age.

Bartenders are not required to proof people in Oklahoma (though there are some jurisdictions where it absolutely is required...my 88 year old buddy was refused service in Pigeon Forge TN). However, if they don't they can get stung (and the revenooers typically do this) by having mature looking 20 year olds attempt to buy alcohol. If you serve them, it can be a criminal violation for the server as well as jeopardizing the liquor license of the establishment.

If you're really curious about how alcohol service works, you should take a responsible server course (you can do it online) which is essentially required of all who will server alcohol.

I demonstrate alcoholic beverages in retail stores.

I am TIPS certified. I am required to card everyone - we don't care if you are my own mother; we don't care if you look like you were 100 when Titanic sank. No ID, no sample. And yes, an older gentleman actually complained to the store and winery when he was refused a sample.

It's called responsibility and covering my ass.

The TIPS class taught me this....dram shop laws. Let's say you're drunk. I'm bartending at a restaurant. I have the right to refuse service. Because if I even serve you water, I have served you. When you take out a family of 6 later....guess who can be sued....me...because technically I served you.....

Rather than worry about hypotheticals, why don't you just make sure you always have your ID with you?

No establishment is required to serve you. If their policy is "we card everyone - no ID, no drink", then that's their policy and you will not be served.

Well, the spirit of that question really got changed a little because someone changed the title. And I admittedly rambled on some and didn't add all my points of concern. I since did further digging and found more info I was looking for in the Oklahoma Laws.

I do always carry my ID on me, that wasn't my issue. But i'll give you some background to actually understand what I was getting at. My family owns a bar, typically we had no problem serving people who we were reasonably sure they were 21 even if it was proved by an expired Drivers License.
Now before I go further, remember, I am talking about OKLAHOMA LAWS, I found other states that were much clearer and even mentioned expired IDs not being good enough.... those laws do not apply to oklahoma.

Everyone goes around here parroting that you can't be in a bar with an expired ID, but if you ask where it actually says that or how they know they usually just say so and so said... no one can ever seem to point me to an actual statute. The reason I care is we started having bartenders send away customers with expired Drivers licenses. If you figure out how many are turned away, and estimate how much the average patron spends, over a year that becomes a decent chunk of change... decent enough to put in a little effort to try to find the true legality of the matter.

The reason I asked on this forum about having an id on you in a bar is because I also couldn't find a law on that and of course you can read the rest of what I was asking in my original post.


And thank you flyingron and PandorasBox for your inputs. I am actually quite trained in the alcohol service industry and have taken a mandatory TABC course before bartending in texas and have been educated by ABLE in oklahoma... I know about the serving side of it. I don't know what state you are in PandorasBox but the law there probably is very clear on the subject. I love Texas's stance on the subject, it is posted on line and is very clear, it basically just says, You can't serve anyone under 21, we don't care how you determine that age, you don't have to ask for an ID, no one has to give you an ID, basically you can accept a signed letter from someones grandma if you feel it is legit enough, and as long as they are over 21 you wont get in trouble.
Oklahoma is not as clear cut in either direction and basically it boils down to business.

I understand that a bar doesn't have to accept anything they don't want to, and I understand "covering your ass", but I'm just concerned if someone is old enough to drink, not that a person can legally drive, I'll leave that to the DMV.

The SPIRIT of the Oklahoma laws appear to be that of keeping minors from having access to alcohol, and not splitting hairs of how that age can be determined. It does mention a drivers license can be used to prove that age, but it never mentioned anything about it being expired or anything like that.... And is expired milk not still milk? It may not be suitable for drinking, but it's still milk. An expired drivers license is still a drivers license, the word drivers license did not magically erase from the surface, and the way the oklahoma laws are written if still appears to be a valid means of verifying age.

I am in Michigan.

Typically, stores post that if you look under 40, you're getting carded.

The company I work for, and the store we do most demos for....we'd rather play it safe than sorry. So we card everyone. I've carded my mother. I've carded my friends. I've carded an 89 year old.

We also do not accept expired licenses. I do work a lot of events in a college town, so I do see a lot of out of state licenses and even foreign passports, and I have to really inspect them.

I also have to log the consumers name - that is to prove I carded the person. If he takes out a bus full of nuns later, and says I did not card him....the name is in my log in sheet, my company has a copy, and the store has a copy. Yes, I've had a few people go into the Conspiracy Theory tantrum - seriously, I am not selling your name to Obama, Obama will never know you took a 1/3 oz sample of wine from me.....This is not a State Law, but more of a "covering our butts" thing.

Also...let's say John and Jane come into the store. John is 21, Jane is 20....I won't pour a sample for John since he is with a minor. I simply can't trust that he will not pass the sample over Jane. If I serve him and he does pass that sample over, I'm now liable for serving to a minor.

I'd rather have a few complaints/angry people....vs..... me being in court and paying the fines.....

I've also worked as a movie extra....trust me, a little makeup can really alter ones looks. I've even got a set of hair extensions and a good friend did not recognize me......so again, extra caution.

Also....ok, some guy in Michigan got drunk. Killed a few people. Prison time. And a multi-million dollar lawsuit against him AND THE BAR THAT SERVED HIM. So I guess....that is something you need to think about.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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I demonstrate alcoholic beverages in retail stores.

I am TIPS certified. I am required to card everyone - we don't care if you are my own mother; we don't care if you look like you were 100 when Titanic sank. No ID, no sample. And yes, an older gentleman actually complained to the store and winery when he was refused a sample.

It's called responsibility and covering my ass.

The TIPS class taught me this....dram shop laws. Let's say you're drunk. I'm bartending at a restaurant. I have the right to refuse service. Because if I even serve you water, I have served you. When you take out a family of 6 later....guess who can be sued....me...because technically I served you.....

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Which state are you talking about where "service" does not specifically mean giving the person alcohol? Most require the service of alcohol as an element and also have the service of alcohol as the proximate cause of the damage as an element.

I'm in Michigan.

Again, my training is that if Drunk Dude walks into a bar, and you even serve water to him...he is involved in an accident later....technically, I served him and can be involved in a lawsuit (Dram Shop laws).

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Quoting PandorasBox

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I'm in Michigan.

Again, my training is that if Drunk Dude walks into a bar, and you even serve water to him...he is involved in an accident later....technically, I served him and can be involved in a lawsuit (Dram Shop laws).

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Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it as it helps me understand.

The Michigan Dram Shop Act is at:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-436-1801

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MICHIGAN LIQUOR CONTROL CODE OF 1998 (EXCERPT)
Act 58 of 1998

436.1801 Granting or renewing license; surety; selling, furnishing, or giving alcoholic liquor to minor or to person visibly intoxicated; right of action for damage or personal injury; actual damages; institution of action; notice; survival of action; general reputation as evidence of relation; separate actions by parents; commencement of action against retail licensee; indemnification; defenses available to licensee; rebuttable presumption; prohibited causes of action; section as exclusive remedy for money damages against licensee; civil action subject to revised judicature act.Sec. 801.
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, before the approval and granting, or renewal, of a license, the following licensees or applicants for that license shall make, execute, and deliver to the commission a bond executed by a surety company authorized to do business in the state or, in the discretion of the commission, by approved personal surety running to the people of the state, in the following amounts:
(a) A manufacturer of beer, a manufacturer of wine, a mixed spirit drink manufacturer, an outstate seller of beer, an outstate seller of mixed spirit drink, and an outstate seller of wine, a bond in an amount equal to 1/12 of the total beer, mixed spirit drink, or wine excise taxes paid to the state in the last calendar year or a bond in the sum of $1,000.00, whichever is greater, for the faithful performance of the conditions of the license issued and for compliance with this act. A surety shall not cancel a bond issued under this subdivision except upon 30 days' written notice to the commission.
(b) A special license authorizing the sale of beer, mixed spirit drink, wine, or spirits for consumption on the premises, a bond in the sum of $1,000.00. A bond issued under this subdivision shall remain in effect for 60 days after the expiration of the special license. A bond is not required for a church or school.
(2) A retail licensee shall not directly, individually, or by a clerk, agent, or servant sell, furnish, or give alcoholic liquor to a minor except as otherwise provided in this act. A retail licensee shall not directly or indirectly, individually or by a clerk, agent, or servant sell, furnish, or give alcoholic liquor to a person who is visibly intoxicated.
(3) Except as otherwise provided in this section, an individual who suffers damage or who is personally injured by a minor or visibly intoxicated person by reason of the unlawful selling, giving, or furnishing of alcoholic liquor to the minor or visibly intoxicated person, if the unlawful sale is proven to be a proximate cause of the damage, injury, or death, or the spouse, child, parent, or guardian of that individual, shall have a right of action in his or her name against the person who by selling, giving, or furnishing the alcoholic liquor has caused or contributed to the intoxication of the person or who has caused or contributed to the damage, injury, or death. In an action pursuant to this section, the plaintiff shall have the right to recover actual damages in a sum of not less than $50.00 in each case in which the court or jury determines that intoxication was a proximate cause of the damage, injury, or death.
(4) An action under this section shall be instituted within 2 years after the injury or death. A plaintiff seeking damages under this section shall give written notice to all defendants within 120 days after entering an attorney-client relationship for the purpose of pursuing a claim under this section. Failure to give written notice within the time specified shall be grounds for dismissal of a claim as to any defendants that did not receive that notice unless sufficient information for determining that a retail licensee might be liable under this section was not known and could not reasonably have been known within the 120 days. In the event of the death of either party, the right of action under this section shall survive to or against his or her personal representative. In each action by a husband, wife, child, or parent, the general reputation of the relation of husband and wife or parent and child shall be prima facie evidence of the relation, and the amount recovered by either the husband, wife, parent, or child shall be his or her sole and separate property. The damages, together with the costs of the action, shall be recovered in an action under this section. If the parents of the individual who suffered damage or who was personally injured are entitled to damages under this section, the father and mother may sue separately, but recovery by 1 is a bar to action by the other.
(5) An action under this section against a retail licensee shall not be commenced unless the minor or the alleged intoxicated person is a named defendant in the action and is retained in the action until the litigation is concluded by trial or settlement.
(6) Any licensee subject to the provisions of subsection (3) regarding the unlawful selling, furnishing, or giving of alcoholic liquor to a visibly intoxicated person shall have the right to full indemnification from the alleged visibly intoxicated person for all damages awarded against the licensee.
(7) All defenses of the alleged visibly intoxicated person or the minor shall be available to the licensee. In an action alleging the unlawful sale of alcoholic liquor to a minor, proof that the defendant retail licensee or the defendant's agent or employee demanded and was shown a Michigan driver license or official state personal identification card, appearing to be genuine and showing that the minor was at least 21 years of age, shall be a defense to the action.
(8) There shall be a rebuttable presumption that a retail licensee, other than the retail licensee who last sold, gave, or furnished alcoholic liquor to the minor or the visibly intoxicated person, has not committed any act giving rise to a cause of action under subsection (3).
(9) The alleged visibly intoxicated person shall not have a cause of action pursuant to this section and a person shall not have a cause of action pursuant to this section for the loss of financial support, services, gifts, parental training, guidance, love, society, or companionship of the alleged visibly intoxicated person.
(10) This section provides the exclusive remedy for money damages against a licensee arising out of the selling, giving, or furnishing of alcoholic liquor to a minor or intoxicated person.
(11) Except as otherwise provided for under this section and section 815, a civil action under subsection (3) against a retail licensee shall be subject to the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.101 to 600.9947.


History: 1998, Act 58, Imd. Eff. Apr. 14, 1998 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 11, Imd. Eff. Feb. 29, 2008
Compiler's Notes: Former sections 22 to 22h of Act 8 of 1933 (Ex. Sess.), being MCL 436.22 to 436.22h, and which were repealed by Act 58 of 1998, Eff. Apr. 14, 1998, were formerly known and cited as the “Dram Shop Act.”
Popular Name: Dram Shop Act

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I think the act seems to apply only to the provision of "alcoholic liquor" for liability. Maybe the training was warning of the fact anyone can be sued when there is a link and not that one would be actually liable with the service of water.

That is my TIPS training, that even serving a drunk a glass of water can be considered as having served him.

Let's say John Doe goes to X Roadhouse, gets trashed.....comes to Y Bar....I serve him a water. Again, technically, I have served him. He gets into an accident, kills 4 people. That family can sue both of us, even though I only gave him water. So it's just best to not serve him period.

That training also showed a drunk couple coming into a restaurant and the hostess refusing seating. Again, once you have let them in, you open yourself to liability.

Thank you again for your input PandorasBox, but surely you realize it is not pertinent to what I am seeking. Your basic jist is to cover your ass. And I understand that, but I'm more concerned with the law, not what someone things they should do to cover there asses.

And also this thread seemed to jump to talking about serving intoxicated people....I'm not sure how as not is also not relevant to anything I mentioned, I have not noticed any obvious link to people coming in with an expired license being more intoxicated than people with not expired licenses.

The law is that if someone drinks in your establishment....you face liability.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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The law is that if someone drinks in your establishment....you face liability.

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...I'm still not sure what you are getting at... are you saying that no one should be in business because we are going to face liability regardless? I face liability even if I had a policy of not serving anyone that looks under 60 even if they have a fully valid ID.

However, again I don't know the laws in Michigan, I am in Oklahoma and operating under the Oklahoma laws posted at
http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...STOKST37&year=


Maybe I'm just not getting it, maybe if someone else can see how what he keeps saying is relevant to what I have been asking they would be kind enough to help me understand?...

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Quoting PandorasBox

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That is my TIPS training, that even serving a drunk a glass of water can be considered as having served him.

Let's say John Doe goes to X Roadhouse, gets trashed.....comes to Y Bar....I serve him a water. Again, technically, I have served him. He gets into an accident, kills 4 people. That family can sue both of us, even though I only gave him water. So it's just best to not serve him period.

That training also showed a drunk couple coming into a restaurant and the hostess refusing seating. Again, once you have let them in, you open yourself to liability.

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I accept that was your training. The liability may arise somewhere else as it does not come from the "Dram Shop Act".

I'm just saying that is how I was trained. Your state may allow to you simply look a person, decide if they of age.

Again, the law in most states (including Oklahoma) do not MANDATE ID Check, however as stated it is the server's (and the licensee's) criminal and civil liability that is at risk if they serve someone who is underage, so it behooves you to check. Some establishments either through their training or insurance requirements mandate 100% ID check. There are a few municipalities that mandate it as well.

If you're going to purchase alcohol, it would be a good idea to be carrying your ID as nobody is required (and most are ill-advised) to serve you without it.

Well, you also risk the cops coming in and checking ID. Then shutting down your place.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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Well, you also risk the cops coming in and checking ID. Then shutting down your place.

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Very much so if you have minors possessing alcohol. Just because someone doesn't have an ID doesn't make it illegal (unless they are demonstrated to be under 21).