Disorderly Conduct Charge for Giving Officers the Finger

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Quoting Disagreeable

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I'm just Disagreeable.

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Must. Resist. Urge. To. Comment.

;)

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Quoting jk

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Holds power over you? Their "power" is short term and only so much that they can force me to comply with a physical demand at the moment. If you mean holding power over a person in that manner, sure, but otherwise, they have no power. They surely have no power to control my life but for the very limited contact I have with them.

as to overt rudeness: doesn't bother me one bit. In fact, I often tell people that if you think I'm an a-hole, tell me to my face. That way there aren't any misconceptions when dealing with you. We'll go about our business, even if it is with each other, as business with no need for feigned concern for the well being of the other party.

I would think a cop would prefer this as well. It let's you know where you stand when dealing with the other party.

jkl1234:


when you quote somebody, use the "quote" button at the bottom of their post as you are. Then, delete the word "quote" that is in brackets at the beginning and end of the post you quoted. Then highlight one section you want to respond to and click on the last icon in the row of icons at the top of the box. the one that looks kind of like this:

http://hydracreations.com/wp-content...tionbubble.jpg

only a LOT smaller. Then type your response after the closing quote in brackets. Then highlight the next section you wish to respond to and on and on. You can also delete sections you do not wish to leave in the post. That will make your posts easier to read.

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I'm on my phone and the quoting is kinda difficult

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Quoting jkl1234

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I'm planing on talking to a lawyer but I've been wondering what to do if I can't afford one

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You either hire one or you don't. If you aren't eligible for a court-appointed counsel, then you may be on your own.

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honestly I don't care about anything other than its legality.

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And THAT's why you will continue to get into trouble.

There are certain standards of decorum that civilized people should aspire to. Assuming you are civilized or even moderately educated, of course.

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Quoting jk

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Holds power over you? Their "power" is short term and only so much that they can force me to comply with a physical demand at the moment. If you mean holding power over a person in that manner, sure, but otherwise, they have no power. They surely have no power to control my life but for the very limited contact I have with them.

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If he is alleging that this is a "corrupt" police force, and implies that they are willing to engage in nefarious and even criminal behavior to have their way over others, then it seems no less foolish to tweek the tail of that tiger than it would be for me to call a bunch of Crips the N word. Yes, the police DO have power over people. Whether this power is exerted through lawful authority or not is a different question.

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as to overt rudeness: doesn't bother me one bit. In fact, I often tell people that if you think I'm an a-hole, tell me to my face. That way there aren't any misconceptions when dealing with you. We'll go about our business, even if it is with each other, as business with no need for feigned concern for the well being of the other party.

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I suppose I grew up in a more civilized age. Perhaps barbarism and crudeness has become the norm, but I can't accept that it should be.

And since the officers/individuals receiving the crude gesture were not known to the OP, it seems doubly rude, crude, and obnoxious to inflict such a gesture on people who may very well not have deserved such.

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I would think a cop would prefer this as well. It let's you know where you stand when dealing with the other party.

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If you don't like what I'm doing, fine. But, to hold me accountable for your perceptions of the actions or rumored actions others, I don't accept that.

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Quoting jkl1234

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I'm on my phone and the quoting is kinda difficult

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I know what you mean.

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If he is alleging that this is a "corrupt" police force, and implies that they are willing to engage in nefarious and even criminal behavior to have their way over others, then it seems no less foolish to tweek the tail of that tiger than it would be for me to call a bunch of Crips the N word. Yes, the police DO have power over people. Whether this power is exerted through lawful authority or not is a different question.

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momentary power. Hopefully those that do not stay within the confines of the law don't last long.

and a lot of people outside the police force have some power as well. They will pick on the wrong guy sometime and find that out.

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I suppose I grew up in a more civilized age. Perhaps barbarism and crudeness has become the norm, but I can't accept that it should be.

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You aren't that different than myself in age. My practice is to give respect where it is shown to be deserved (elderly get a freebie. Everybody else doesn't get respect unless they show some level upon initial contact) We both grew up in an era of standing up for your rights and a very long fight to establish what those rights are. While I may not flip somebody off without immediate cause, I surely am not going to argue they should be arrested because they did.

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And since the officers/individuals receiving the crude gesture were not known to the OP, it seems doubly rude, crude, and obnoxious to inflict such a gesture on people who may very well not have deserved such.

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sure but does that justify an arrest? To use the greatest power available to them because somebody flipped them off. I don't know about you but if I had cops under me arresting for that, I would wonder if they had not become power mad. That is oppression and a very good reason to have contempt for those choose to use their power as a weapon.

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If you don't like what I'm doing, fine. But, to hold me accountable for your perceptions of the actions or rumored actions others, I don't accept that.

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I think you misunderstood the statement. It was simply that if a person has no respect for you, wouldn't you prefer to know that up front? I would think you would tailor your actions to that knowledge. In other words; why bother trying to be the nice respectful guy at that point. You just get to business and take care of it. No need to be a "bad guy" because of it but no need to make an effort to be the nice guy either.

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Quoting jk

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apologize? I believe the intent was to insult him. Why would one apologize for succeeding in the act undertaken for a specific purpose?

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Yes, the intent was to insult someone who had done him no wrong. That's rude, and people ought to apologize for rude behavior. Especially when they are facing a criminal charge. But hey, everyone can do as they wish. It was not illegal, but people need to apologize for many things they do that are not illegal.

Again, if one's intent is to be rude, apologizing kind of defeats the purpose. If you are raising a child, you teach them to not be rude and demand they apologiZe for their improper behavior but that is a totally different issue. A person who was intentionally rude being required to apologize will
result in nothing more than lip service. Again, that is simply going to be seen as government oppression which is a huge part of why the '60's were what they were.

Just to throw my two cents in here. I agree that flipping off the police should not be illegal and, at least in some jurisdictions, there is legal precedent that it is not. I have had it done to me many times and I’ve never felt the need to try to stretch some disorderly conduct statute in order to arrest for it (however, I admit that it irks me that police officers cannot be considered victims of some actions that would be a crime when committed toward any other citizen). Now, that being said (and I think this relates to what Carl has said about “tweaking the tail of the tiger”), such behavior WILL tend to attract my direct attention toward the friend of Beavis that is “expressing his freedom of speech.” Should this brave freedom fighter next commit a traffic violation or some other violation of the law, it will not escape my attention and I will perform my sworn duty to the community. I have found that by simply standing on the other side of the street, with arms crossed, and watching a person of this mentality (without offering response of either word or gesture), he will almost invariably get so carried away in further expressing his Constitutional freedoms (because, let's face it, the real intention is to be obnoxious enough to provoke a reaction from the pigs!) that he will commit a violation of law within just a few minutes – in my experience, it is usually an act of vandalism.

So, yes, speaking strictly from my personal opinion (as I have no idea about case law in Missouri), I believe that the charge should be dropped as Constitutionally protected speech. Further, I believe the officer was a bit too thin skinned and, possibly, overstepped his authority (ethically, whether or not he did so legally). And, if I were his supervisor, I would share those thoughts with him (along with my comments above regarding my own experiences).

Now, admittedly, none of this post is informative in helping OP. But, this thread seems to have bunny-trailed into more of a debate of opinions as it seems any possible useful information for OP has already been provided. :)

sometimes we like the tiger chasing us. Challenges are what makes life interesting.

I like your point about giving the guy enough rope and letting him hang himself.

As a cop, if you can't take such minimal issues and leave them lay on the ground, I would question the ability to maintain one's self such that you did not over react to a situation more stressing where refraining from "busting the guy" is the best action. What about when you respond to a larger crowd of people (for examples purposes lets say 100). If 10 of them flip you off are you going to arrest them and possibly incite all 100 to react negatively? What if all 100 flip you off? Are you taking 100 people downtown?

Seriously, flipping you off is no worse than calling you a pig. Both are protected speech and neither should be able to invoke such a emotional response from a cop that you feel the need to "show the guy who's boss".

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Quoting jkl1234

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I can tell this forum is full of police :wallbang: I'm not trying to argue the legality of what I did (its obvious to me), or if it was rude or disrespectful.

I'm trying to figure out the best way to move forward. I can't really afford a lawyer and I don't think I'll be appointed a P.D. so I'm gonna need to do this on my own.

Is there a way to get the D.A. to drop the charges before my arraignment, if so how do I do that. Is there paper work or do I talk directly to the D.A.?

Any advise on this whole process?

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You might contact the ACLU. While the incident was not in your state the western Missouri ACLU received part of a settlement when a person was arrested in Kansas in similar circumstances.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-6402999.html

The first amendment allows citizens to protest the government. You might also try:

http://www.law.ucla.edu/centers-prog...s/default.aspx

to see if they could guide you.

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Quoting jk

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Again, if one's intent is to be rude, apologizing kind of defeats the purpose. If you are raising a child, you teach them to not be rude and demand they apologiZe for their improper behavior but that is a totally different issue. A person who was intentionally rude being required to apologize will
result in nothing more than lip service. Again, that is simply going to be seen as government oppression which is a huge part of why the '60's were what they were.

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If you have made a conscious decision to go through life intentionally offending people and imparting as much offense as possible then of course you should never apologize when you are successful. If, after creating a huge hassle for yourself (getting arrested, getting your ass kicked a few times) you realize that your course of action was in error and that you want to rethink your position, an apology would be a nice thing. The OP asked for advice. I gave it. I did not require the person to apologize. I told them that offering an apology to someone deserving of an apology might help. This seems so very straightforward to me, but I guess it's the nature of this forum to quibble over nonsensical things.