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Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy

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  • 10-09-2013, 10:12 PM
    ssjs13
    Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    My question involves collection proceedings in the State of: Michigan


    I was recently hospitalized for three days because I was thought to be on drugs. Even though I denied all accusations of using any drugs for the first twenty minutes, arguing technicalities such as alcohol, nicotine, and pollution, blablabla. Eventually admitted because the person the brought me mentions I hadn't slept in three days. After discharge, I had herd rumors that I had gone clinically insane, which was odd because I had told no one of being hospitalized and everyone remotely close was made aware of the situation, albeit construed. Arguing doesn't help in that situation either. Turns out the nurse told someone and so on. I will admit that I was a bit overtired, and not completely with it, nothing was found, except for alcohol. Official discharge says ingested toxin. Not to sure why I should pay over eleven thousand dollars for treatment of nothing.
  • 10-09-2013, 10:28 PM
    Dogmatique
    Re: Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    "Insane" is nowadays a legal term - it is not used medically.

    You pay because you spent three days/nights in the facility.
  • 10-09-2013, 11:40 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    If you had not slept in 3 days, there must have been a cause. As someone suffering from multiple sleep disorders, I am fully aware of the effects from sleep deprivation. It appears they correctly ascertained in your case it was chemically induced and admitted you.
  • 10-10-2013, 05:05 AM
    ssjs13
    Re: Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    Insane, as I am sure is a legal term, must have a basis. As for sleep disorder, if it was not done on purpose I would have sought medical advice before. I have also had a sleep study done at a private clinic and I am sure that is in my medical records. Simply being overworked/overtired, and irritable should not be grounds for admittance to a medical facility. If it was/is 90% of the hospital would have to check themselves in. I also get the three days I was there was not free, but running a battery of tests on someone who is refusing ANY and ALL treatment, and insisting on discharge competently, simply "because you can", and failing to heed the request for no chemical sedation/holistic medicine due to personal reasons/preference is also a bit of a misstep.
  • 10-10-2013, 06:38 AM
    cdwjava
    Re: Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    If you were refusing treatment, why didn't you just get up and leave? Hospitals are NOT lockdown facilities - they have doors, and you can just walk out. In fact, if you refuse treatment and depart AMA (Against Medical Advice) there is nothing they can legally do to make you remain ... provided you are competent and not subject to a hold by some other authority.

    If you were "hospitalized," and did not just get up and go, that would imply that you were incapacitated in some way (physically or mentally), or, that you were compelled to remain as part of a hold placed by law enforcement or mental health. If so, chances are by your state law they have the right - and, likely, the obligation - to try and diagnose and treat you as a gravely disabled adult.

    So, how was it that you came to be "hospitalized," and why didn't you simply walk away?
  • 10-10-2013, 08:05 AM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    Quote:

    Quoting ssjs13
    View Post
    I was recently hospitalized for three days because I was thought to be on drugs. Even though I denied all accusations of using any drugs for the first twenty minutes, arguing technicalities such as alcohol, nicotine, and pollution, blablabla. Eventually admitted because the person the brought me mentions I hadn't slept in three days.

    So... you were lethargic and showing signs of psychosis as a result of sleep deprivation?

    When you were admitted one of two things happened: Either you signed a document voluntarily agreeing to a 72 hour hold, during which you would give a certain amount of advance notice before leaving the facility, or a petition was filed with the probate court asking that you be detained as a "person requiring treatment" based upon the examining psychiatrist's determination that you demonstrated "a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life." See MCL 330.1401.

    If you voluntarily agreed to the treatment, and I expect that you did, you agreed that it was necessary. If not, the doctors deemed it medically necessary and a court agreed, pending further review. Either way, it's your bill to pay.
    Quote:

    Quoting ssjs13
    After discharge, I had herd rumors that I had gone clinically insane, which was odd because I had told no one of being hospitalized and everyone remotely close was made aware of the situation, albeit construed.

    As you have been told, there is no such thing as going "clinically insane". If you didn't inform others of your hospitalization, odds are they found out from the people who became sufficiently disturbed by your behavior to arrange for your hospitalization.
    Quote:

    Quoting ssjs13
    I will admit that I was a bit overtired, and not completely with it, nothing was found, except for alcohol. Official discharge says ingested toxin.

    If your diagnosis was that you ingested a toxin, then it reasonably follows that either a toxin showed up in your blood/urine testing or that your symptoms were not consistent with mere sleep deprivation but were consistent with ingestion of a toxin.
    Quote:

    Quoting ssjs13
    Not to sure why I should pay over eleven thousand dollars for treatment of nothing.

    You were treated for severe sleep deprivation (by your own admission) that left you unable to properly care for yourself, and for possible ingestion of a toxin that would raise the same concern along with concern about accidental or deliberate self-harm.
    Quote:

    Quoting ssjs13
    View Post
    As for sleep disorder, if it was not done on purpose I would have sought medical advice before.

    Why did you deliberately stay awake for 72 hours, to the point that those around you believed you might be overdosing on drugs?
    Quote:

    Quoting ssjs13
    ...and failing to heed the request for no chemical sedation/holistic medicine due to personal reasons/preference is also a bit of a misstep.

    When you appear at a psychiatric emergency room showing signs of ingestion of a toxin, claim, "No, it's just that I've deliberately stayed awake for 72 hours", then refuse to go to sleep, you can expect to be sedated. Such is life.
  • 10-10-2013, 08:43 AM
    eerelations
    Re: Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    I too am curious about the following:

    1. why you didn't just up and walk out; and
    2. why you went to the hospital in the first place.
  • 10-10-2013, 02:14 PM
    ssjs13
    Re: Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    Nothing at all showed up in my toxicology report except for alcohol. I was being questioned by a relative as to why I haven't been over in the last 3 days, when I replied "you have a car and complete capability to drive over" my relative showed up insisting that someone "put some crack in my weed..." and said if we didn't go to the hospital they were calling the cops on me because I was acting crazy because I had my phone shut off. After agreeing to get out of the house to get some fresh air, and swing by a local fuel station we arrived at the hospital with the coaxing words of "if you have nothing to hide, there shouldn't be a problem" thus resulting in me at the emergency room intake window being gawked at by numerous people because of the fact that they were talking to me like I was incapable of comprehending words. No paperwork was signed by me at all. If it was it was done while I was under the influence of the chemical sedative or the ativan(?) they gave me when I refused the MRI and CT because of recent medical studies (i.e. personal reasons). When I attempted to leave numerous times after being there maybe 20 mins and not liking the fact that the hospital was treating me like a drug addict. I was eventually restrained by 2 security guards and three doctors. Then I was told after the CT I could leave because they thought my brain had swelled.
    I was there for three more days under 24 hour surveillance.

    I was not exhibiting signs of psychosis, I was not at a psychiatric E.R., No history of suicide, no history of anything. I am perfectly capable of staying awake for 3 days. 11 days is considered long. I was working on a project that I have been a bit enthralled with lately. Not out of the ordinary in the least.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote:

    Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    So... you were lethargic and showing signs of psychosis as a result of sleep deprivation?

    When you were admitted one of two things happened: Either you signed a document voluntarily agreeing to a 72 hour hold, during which you would give a certain amount of advance notice before leaving the facility, or a petition was filed with the probate court asking that you be detained as a "person requiring treatment" based upon the examining psychiatrist's determination that you demonstrated "a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life." See MCL 330.1401.

    If you voluntarily agreed to the treatment, and I expect that you did, you agreed that it was necessary. If not, the doctors deemed it medically necessary and a court agreed, pending further review. Either way, it's your bill to pay.

    As you have been told, there is no such thing as going "clinically insane". If you didn't inform others of your hospitalization, odds are they found out from the people who became sufficiently disturbed by your behavior to arrange for your hospitalization.

    If your diagnosis was that you ingested a toxin, then it reasonably follows that either a toxin showed up in your blood/urine testing or that your symptoms were not consistent with mere sleep deprivation but were consistent with ingestion of a toxin.

    You were treated for severe sleep deprivation (by your own admission) that left you unable to properly care for yourself, and for possible ingestion of a toxin that would raise the same concern along with concern about accidental or deliberate self-harm.

    Why did you deliberately stay awake for 72 hours, to the point that those around you believed you might be overdosing on drugs?

    When you appear at a psychiatric emergency room showing signs of ingestion of a toxin, claim, "No, it's just that I've deliberately stayed awake for 72 hours", then refuse to go to sleep, you can expect to be sedated. Such is life.

    I was in bed when said relative burst into my private home and forcibly/deceitfully removed me.
    I understand what you have said about clinically insane, and I don't understand why you have repeated it... as you said "as you have been told.." I was merely remarking on the lack of respect of others privacy. As I said, that was the rumor I was hearing almost immediately upon release. Apparently that is a HIPPA? violation since it was leaked from hospital staff.
    Lethargic? No not at all. I was actually quite alert.

    When you appear at a psychiatric emergency room showing signs of ingestion of a toxin, claim, "No, it's just that I've deliberately stayed awake for 72 hours", then refuse to go to sleep, you can expect to be sedated. Such is life.
    If it violates my directly expressed wishes? Strange.


    "My own admission"
    Certainly would never admit myself for nothing... I was literally dragged in there.

    I have never suffered from full on sleep deprivation. I am actually pretty well adapted to odd sleep schedules.
  • 10-10-2013, 02:14 PM
    Mr. Knowitall
    Re: Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    So you are telling us that you were detained as a psychiatric inpatient pursuant to a petition to the probate court pending a hearing on the petition, and were discharged when your symptoms resolved.

    Apparently you are not capable of staying awake for three days without displaying signs of psychosis.
  • 10-10-2013, 02:45 PM
    ssjs13
    Re: Can I Be Billed if I Refused Treatment and Was Completely Healthy
    What probate court hearing? That was never ascertained. No offense, but I think I would know if I were displaying signs of psychosis. Not to mention that it is pretty common for people in my line of work. Considering I would have been asleep, with my goal completed, if I were not interrupted by minor trivialities like why I didn't answer my phone, or stop by. I can tell you positively that 72 hours does not have many adverse affects for me. I have to pee slightly more, and talk a bit faster. That is about it. It is all about staying hydrated. I was not working with heavy machines, or driving, or doing anything with power tools. I was minding my own, working. What more people should do. I have done 72 hour stretches numerous times, doing everything I have mentioned above. No injuries/fatalities/accidents. I will admit that if you are one of those " I need 8-12 full hours of sleep to contribute anything of any value " people, you might want to ease into it.
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