Civil Demand Letter from Palmer, Reifler and Associates

My question involves criminal law for the state of: Minnesota

Well, I currently reside in Minnesota and was caught shoplifting in Wisconsin. Yes, I got off with a diversion program and received many letters from the "Palmer and Reifler" law firm. To those who have been told by this forum that by not paying this demand the law firm is likely to sue you. Well, let me assure you worried folks, after the third letter they have sent me, it stopped. Palmer, Reifler & Associates are a notorious law firm that are known to use scare tactics so that those who are worried and unsure will "settle" for this demand and not get sued in civil court. Well, I have to tell you guys, Palmer and Reifler are bluffing and using legal extortion by sending off these demand letters. Don't fall for these letters! My friend who was falsely accused of stealing an item (not taken to court, nothing) got these letters demanding him to pay $300, and nothing ever happened after 3 months! THEY ARE BLUFFING!

Just a friendly letter to those who are worried about these demand letters,
Dongbae

P.S.
You owe them nothing! Rest assured you won't be sued in civil/small claims court. Restitution for those items stolen were already paid back when you have them back to LP. Don't let this foolish forum fool you, Palmer and Reifler sent millions, MILLIONS, of these demand letters out and publicly admitted into only suing less than 10 people. Ridiculous!

What most people tell thieves like you is that if you don't pay, particularly if you choose not to pay after a store gives you a break by not prosecuting, you are taking a chance.

The law specifically allows stores to send civil demands to thieves they catch stealing from them, so this has nothing to do with "extortion".

For someone who knows it all, you definitely don't know anything about this civil demand at all. Many states have statutes that limit the award given to these law firms for around $500 and that is something not worth prosecuting for because the cost of a lawyer and the cost of actually going to court to file the suit would cost WAY more than that $500. Why would they prosecute you if they were going to lose more than they would make? It's obvious, to make free money. They also send out letters one day before the due date (this has been confirmed on many sites and on official news and media sites) to ensure that the person receiving the demand would pay the second amount of the demand (which is typically double the first amount). Do you have any more opinions to add?

Dongbae

Folks....who do you want to take advice from? A volunteer with 68,000+ posts?

Or a thief with 7 posts?

- If they did not have a person criminally charged, the store just may change their minds about that and pass that folder over to Law Enforcement.

- yes, they can sue you in Civil Court. AND they will add their attorney fees and filing costs to your tab. Since their lawyers will charge atleast $200/hour...do you really want to take that chance. We have seen cases where the amount more than TRIPLED by the time this happened.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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Folks....who do you want to take advice from? A volunteer with 68,000+ posts?

Or a thief with 7 posts?

- If they did not have a person criminally charged, the store just may change their minds about that and pass that folder over to Law Enforcement.

- yes, they can sue you in Civil Court. AND they will add their attorney fees and filing costs to your tab. Since their lawyers will charge atleast $200/hour...do you really want to take that chance. We have seen cases where the amount more than TRIPLED by the time this happened.

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Oh, I'm sorry I haven't been contributing much to this forum, pardon me. By the way, I could have gave tons and tons of useless advice and would've reached that "68,000+" posts you just mentioned before, but fortunately, I like to spend my time off of this forum working and studying for my 2nd year in Pre-pharm. A 3.8GPA cumulative is better than 68,000+ posts, no?, or am I just mistakened? And no, my previous theft charge did not affect my schooling, however were it to be grand larceny, that'd be a different story.

" - If they did not have a person criminally charged, the store just may change their minds about that and pass that folder over to Law Enforcement."
- Are you really sure about that? Regardless of paying or not, paying DOES NOT let you off the hook of your criminal case whatsoever. A few 30-minute consultations between Minnesota and Wisconsin gave me this simple and final answer. Paying will only "release" you from your civil case and stop you from getting sued (in which you will NEVER get sued EVER because Palmer and Reifler are notorious for having the lowest suing ratio EVER; notice the uppercased words).

" yes, they can sue you in Civil Court. AND they will add their attorney fees and filing costs to your tab. Since their lawyers will charge atleast $200/hour...do you really want to take that chance. We have seen cases where the amount more than TRIPLED by the time this happened."
- Folks, I just can't stress enough to say this... Don't pay, or pay if it's part of a plea-bargain with a DA regarding your court date. Do a few searches on Avvo and this answer will come flying out at you. Again, let me state this again, Palmer, Reifler & Associates are notorious for sending MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of these demands out across the United States and having sued ONLY LESS THAN 10 TIMES.

Edit: This is mainly to 'Pandorasbox,' Most, if not all, state statutes allow a reward of $500 MAX, yes $500 MAX, for winning a suit against retail theft. Now if you were a prosecutor would you really want to prosecute this case, file a suit, hire a lawyer ($200/hr as you said earlier, good job!) and go to court for a mere $500? Think again, buddy. Why, I don't think Palmer and Reifler would have the guts to come to court themselves considering what they're doing is "legal extortion" (not directly extortion, but reworded in the letters to not violate legal laws).

If you want proof of this so-called "Law Firm," here it is (Official news and everything ;)):

Source #1) Complaints against Palmer and Reifler - This isn't probably that significant to you guys, but have a look at it anyways.
Source #2) "Shaking Down" on the Accused - This is still a current case, so we'll see where this goes against Palmer and Reifler.
Source #3) MUST READ!! - And viola~ We hit gold! :)

Happy hunting and cheers,
Dongbae

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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What most people tell thieves like you is that if you don't pay, particularly if you choose not to pay after a store gives you a break by not prosecuting, you are taking a chance.

The law specifically allows stores to send civil demands to thieves they catch stealing from them, so this has nothing to do with "extortion".

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I have actually had several different attorneys in my area tell me that those letters are "nothing more than legal extortion"...so the opinion is also shared by at least some attorneys.

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Quoting llworking

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I have actually had several different attorneys in my area tell me that those letters are "nothing more than legal extortion"...so the opinion is also shared by at least some attorneys.

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I am so glad that there is somebody here on this forum that is on my side. Welcome aboard, friend!

Dongbae

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Quoting llworking

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I have actually had several different attorneys in my area tell me that those letters are "nothing more than legal extortion"...so the opinion is also shared by at least some attorneys.

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I can't help it if some of the lawyers in your area are as dumb as our shoplifting friend here, dingbat. There is no such thing as "legal extortion" - extortion is not legal.

"Now if you were a prosecutor would you really want to prosecute this case, file a suit, hire a lawyer ($200/hr as you said earlier, good job!) and go to court for a mere $500? Think again, buddy."

this shows your knowledge...of big time LACK of it.

It's NOT the Prosecutor who files the Civil Demand/Civil Lawsuit. This is separate from the Criminal Case. This is a Civil Case filed by the store and it's attorneys/collection agency.

Lawyers who handle small fee cases typically aggregate them, filing many at the same time for a hearing before the same judge on the same date, and the economics of that type of practice can be very good. For example, a landlord-tenant lawyer may charge an institutional client a low flat fee for an eviction, but if he has ten or fifteen cases on the same day he'll have a significantly higher effective hourly rate than if he were handling one case at a standard hourly rate.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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"Now if you were a prosecutor would you really want to prosecute this case, file a suit, hire a lawyer ($200/hr as you said earlier, good job!) and go to court for a mere $500? Think again, buddy."

this shows your knowledge...of big time LACK of it.

It's NOT the Prosecutor who files the Civil Demand/Civil Lawsuit. This is separate from the Criminal Case. This is a Civil Case filed by the store and it's attorneys/collection agency.

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Oh, please. Regardless, hiring a lawyer to sue someone civically in small claims court wouldn't be effective, worth the time and the money. Suing someone in small claims court would cost them more (attorney costs, costs of filing a suit) than them actually making profit themselves.

If anytime a year or two from now I get sued in small claims court, I'll come crying back onto this forum. If not, kiss your words goodbye because when's the last time you heard someone got sued by Palmer and Reifler? Never.

Dongbae

I recognize that your brain is roughly the size of a peanut, but who said anything about small claims court?

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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I recognize that your brain is roughly the size of a peanut, but who said anything about small claims court?

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No, but I do believe YOUR brain is the size of a peanut. They can do three things to you (in which they won't):

1) Charge you criminally (This is why I mentioned a "prosecutor," and the stores attorneys always have the ability to charge you criminally regardless of paying or not).

2) Take you to Civil court (For a $2 item? The judge and DA are both going to get a good laugh).

3) Take you to Small Claims court (This sounds more reasonable, however, filing a suit for a $2 item isn't worth the time and money; as I said -- AGAIN and AGAIN. A $1000 item, on the other hand, could possibly be worth suing for).

Sure, losing in a Civil court case can affect your credit, but the chances of going to Civil court against Palmer or whatever law firm is highly unlikely. If you may, show me a recent article or source of someone getting sued in court.

Edit: To those two who are "law experts," in #1 in the list above, the attorneys can't directly order you to Criminal court, but can file a complaint, which could possibly (it won't) drag you into attending the mandatory court date.

Dongbae

Come now, little peanut, all joshing aside, you're not some sort of ignorant ying yang, are you? You want to do more with your life than flip burgers at McDonalds?

Then stop arguing with the grown-ups and start acting like one.

Woah, woah, woah. Who said I was Asian? I'm clearly Caucasian, thank you very much. And I currently reside in St. Paul, Minnesota, not Wisconsin.

Dongbae

Nobody said anything about your ethnicity, peanut.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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Nobody said anything about your ethnicity, peanut.

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Oh, please, peanut. "Ying Yang" refers to? Just because a white guy has the ability to date a Korean woman, and he has an "Asian" forum username, Ying Yang is the way to go?

Go, you, little peanut,
Dongbae

Did you not follow the link?

Thanks for confirming my guess, though.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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Did you not follow the link?

Thanks for confirming my guess, though.

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Of course I followed the link, you racist peanut. And, what did I just confirm?

Dongbae

Nice tantrum, Josh.

Oh, please. You do know that Dongbae is a common name in Korea, right? Keep guessing.

Dongbae

Whatever you say, Josh.

Alright then, my name is officially Josh.

A better name than dingbat, that's for sure.

I agree with you there.

Anyways, being sued in Civil and Small claims court is unlikely. Only pay if a plea bargain is associated with your case dismissal by the DA.

Dongbae

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Quoting Dongbae

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I agree with you there.

Anyways, being sued in Civil and Small claims court is unlikely. Only pay if a plea bargain is associated with your case dismissal by the DA.

Dongbae

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Go away.

If you can't even fathom the difference between small claims and the rest, you have no business being allowed outside without an adult present - let alone anything else.

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Quoting Dogmatique

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Go away.

If you can't even fathom the difference between small claims and the rest, you have no business being allowed outside without an adult present - let alone anything else.

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I'm 24, and not considered an adult? Please, briefly differentiate the difference between "small claims and the rest" of the different types of courts, if you may.

Might as well join the party...

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Quoting Dongbae

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1) Charge you criminally (This is why I mentioned a "prosecutor," and the stores attorneys always have the ability to charge you criminally regardless of paying or not).

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The stores attorneys have no such ability. Only the state can charge you criminally.

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Quoting Dongbae

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2) Take you to Civil court (For a $2 item? The judge and DA are both going to get a good laugh).

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There is no DA in a civil case.

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Quoting free9man

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Might as well join the party...


The stores attorneys have no such ability. Only the state can charge you criminally.



There is no DA in a civil case.

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1) Re-read the whole paragraph for #1, specifically the "edit" that I made a while ago.

2) Are you so sure about that?

Not to sound like an a**, just saying.

Dongbae

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Quoting Dongbae

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1) Re-read the whole paragraph for #1, specifically the "edit" that I made a while ago.

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So you edited it when you realized your sounded stupid. Congrats, I missed that. While the attorneys could theoretically file a complaint, they won't. It's not their job. It's the job of the store personnel.

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Quoting Dongbae

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2) Are you so sure about that?

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Yup. While there are rare instances where a prosecutor might appear in civil court, it sure as heck ain't gonna be for a civil demand case.

[/QUOTE]

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Quoting free9man

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So you edited it when you realized your sounded stupid. Congrats, I missed that. While the attorneys could theoretically file a complaint, they won't. It's not their job. It's the job of the store personnel.



Yup. While there are rare instances where a prosecutor might appear in civil court, it sure as heck ain't gonna be for a civil demand case.

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An *edit* tag is there for a reason, of course.

I'm done arguing, this is going to go on until the end of time.

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Quoting Dongbae

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An *edit* tag is there for a reason, of course.

I'm done arguing, this is going to go on until the end of time.

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(I suggest you use your favorite search engine to help you understand the differences between the different courts. No, really)

We're not arguing. We're joshing with you. Yanking your chain, so to speak.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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We're not arguing. We're joshing with you. Yanking your chain, so to speak.

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I'm telling you, you got the wrong guy, lol. But whatever, if you insist.

Anyways, that is something to expect from a forum like this.

Dongbae

You're telling me that I have the wrong guy, LOLs and all that, but you're not convincing anybody.

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Quoting Dongbae

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My question involves criminal law for the state of: Minnesota

Well, I currently reside in Minnesota and was caught shoplifting in Wisconsin. Yes, I got off with a diversion program and received many letters from the "Palmer and Reifler" law firm. To those who have been told by this forum that by not paying this demand the law firm is likely to sue you. Well, let me assure you worried folks, after the third letter they have sent me, it stopped. Palmer, Reifler & Associates are a notorious law firm that are known to use scare tactics so that those who are worried and unsure will "settle" for this demand and not get sued in civil court. Well, I have to tell you guys, Palmer and Reifler are bluffing and using legal extortion by sending off these demand letters. Don't fall for these letters! My friend who was falsely accused of stealing an item (not taken to court, nothing) got these letters demanding him to pay $300, and nothing ever happened after 3 months! THEY ARE BLUFFING!

Just a friendly letter to those who are worried about these demand letters,
Dongbae

P.S.
You owe them nothing! Rest assured you won't be sued in civil/small claims court. Restitution for those items stolen were already paid back when you have them back to LP. Don't let this foolish forum fool you, Palmer and Reifler sent millions, MILLIONS, of these demand letters out and publicly admitted into only suing less than 10 people. Ridiculous!

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Well I have to disagree about your claim this is extortion and about the purpose being restitution. What they are doing is perfectly legal in many if not most states and the companies that hired them have a right to civil damages to cover the costs they incur because of shoplifting. Your sticky fingers end up costing everyone to the tune of $10 BILLION/year in lost merchandise and loss prevention measures. Though it is true that ignoring these demand letters rarely results in civil actions, I don't think anyone can rest assured that their particular case will be so treated. Just as deciding to gamble that you wouldn't get caught shoplifting, I suppose you could also gamble on this one :(

...and if you gamble on, do not blame us or your lawyer.

My lawyer...I had to present the paid civil demand receipt in court to the judge.

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Quoting PandorasBox

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My lawyer...I had to present the paid civil demand receipt in court to the judge.

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I suspect that was because your state mandates restitution, and without proof of payment of a civil demand the court would have ordered you to pay restitution to the store.

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Quoting Mr. Knowitall

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I suspect that was because your state mandates restitution, and without proof of payment of a civil demand the court would have ordered you to pay restitution to the store.

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Yes, and believe it or not, criminal courts around here generally offer dismissals, nolle pros or probation for first time, low dollar offenders who pay the civil demand. Even though one is civil, and one is criminal, judges like the civil portion satisfied because it shows remorse.

We sue delinquents on a regular basis. We collect approximately 22% before civil proceedings. That jumps up to 43% when we threaten suit and 70% when we sue. Approximately 30% never pay.

I'd had a prior for having an open container in my car, so no diversion or first time for me. I had though the open container was a simple traffic ticket. I was so wrong about that. Had I known, I would have gone in front of the judge because the cop had told me he was not going to show.