ExpertLaw.com Forums

Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst Previous 1 2
  • 10-07-2013, 10:00 AM
    Mackieman
    Re: Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone
    Disagreeable,
    Thank you for taking time to look into this. I would not intentionally misrepresent info to my advisors, as it might lead to irrelevant advice. I am trying to be accurate in presenting my understanding of events.

    The officer in question sits at the bottom of a hill and cites people who pick up speed. I am ok with this when there are children around, but if this can be considered a speed trap under the law (when children are not "coming or going"), I would like to establish that.

    Students cannot not leave Aragon High for lunch, and in any event my citation was not during the lunch recess.
    Here is the bell schedule of Aragon HS
    http://www.aragon.schoolloop.com/cms...1219971403211.
    Students were in class (Period 6) at the time of my citation (12:46 on Thursday).

    Also, Aragon High is a "closed campus" and students cannot leave at anytime during the school day.
    See paragraph two of this daily announcement the week before my citation. (Some senior students can get passes to leave early on Friday, though)
    https://aragon.schoolloop.com/cms/bl...=1254374519520

    Baywood Elementary is .33 miles up the road and is also a closed and fenced campus, with no students present at the time of my citation.

    Therefore, there were no children present at the time of my citation. As I am not a lawyer, peace officer, or judge with extensive knowledge of how the law works, my question remains:

    Does the lack of children (present, coming or going) as required by 22352 create a viable basis for claiming a School Zone was not in effect at the time of my citation?


    If it does not, can you tell me why not?

    If the answer is yes, I then appear to have a basis for claiming a speed trap (40802), assuming there is not ETS (still working on that).

    If this holds true, I could move to dismiss due to the arresting officer's inability to testify regarding a speed trap. Is this correct?

    Otherwise, I am cooked.

    Thanks again for helping me. My hearing is tomorrow.
  • 10-07-2013, 01:59 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone
    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Students cannot not leave Aragon High for lunch, and in any event my citation was not during the lunch recess.
    Here is the bell schedule of Aragon HS
    http://www.aragon.schoolloop.com/cms...1219971403211.
    Students were in class (Period 6) at the time of my citation (12:46 on Thursday).

    Also, Aragon High is a "closed campus" and students cannot leave at anytime during the school day.
    See paragraph two of this daily announcement the week before my citation. (Some senior students can get passes to leave early on Friday, though)
    https://aragon.schoolloop.com/cms/bl...=1254374519520

    Interestingly enough, both links that you provided are DEAD LINKS...

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Therefore, there were no children present at the time of my citation.

    We already discussed why school policy cannot override the requirements under the vehicle code. But fine, you want to claim the presence of children is relevant... Here, from the picture that you posted:

    Where is it that you are seeing the "When Children Are Present" restriction?

    https://photos-1.dropbox.com/t/0/AAD...GHtCy9sLJean4k

    Typically, the requirement must be posted on the school zone speed limit sign for it to be in effect, example:

    http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...psa1d723a6.jpg

    Not the case here...

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    As I am not a lawyer, peace officer, or judge with extensive knowledge of how the law works, my question remains:

    Does the lack of children (present, coming or going) as required by 22352 create a viable basis for claiming a School Zone was not in effect at the time of my citation?

    Your question does not "remain", it was answered... in detail... And the burden to justify the speed limit somehow, while it might be on the prosecution when you are in court, to even begin to justify wanting to go to trial with a speed trap argument, you'd have to establish that a survey is required. In this case, it appears it isn't. And by the way, the same way I suggested that Caltrans would have directed you to the correct agency that will likely have conducted the survey, the city public works department would have done the same. And yet, here you are, with a trial to go to tomorrow, and the inquiry with the county is still pending.

    Hold on though, as that inquiry might not be so important.

    In your second post, you stated that the school is fenced... Where are you seeing a fence here: I am facing school property in this street map image, from Alameda De Las Pulgas, am I not? The football field AND the baseball field both represent "school grounds", do they not? Show us the fence that is required per the vehicle code.

    Better yet, show us the pictures you said you had that showed this fence surrounding school grounds. I would be curious as to why you did not post those along with the speed limit sign you posted, but it may be moot now. Because without a fence, the 25 mph speed limit applies "while the grounds (even if they are in classrooms, they are still using "the grounds") are in use by children and the highway is posted with a standard “SCHOOL” warning sign".

    So as it stands now, it appears that you were properly cited, that there is no requirement for the officer to present any sort of survey or for local authority to conduct one. The officer needs to only describe the roadway as a school zone, state the speed limit, describe measuring your speed at 41 mph and though he might present Radar calibration and Radar training certificates, neither is required. The burden would then shift to you to try and justify your speed, 16 mph in excess of the posted limit as being safe and prudent. Judging by the fact that this is adjacent to a school, I would imagine that every judge in the state would shut down any idea suggesting such speed is in any way safe or prudent. And in those events, you have no defense. But good luck tomorrow.
  • 10-07-2013, 02:35 PM
    Mackieman
    Re: Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone
    Thank you for posting again.

    Regarding the school picture, the section of lawn you see is not fenced along the road, but it is at the far end, near the school. The football, tennis, gym areas are fenced. A school administrator told me on the phone that the lawn area facing the street is outside the fences and is off limits to students during school hours.

    However...I talked to the dept of public works engineer in some detail. While he again said he did not have an ETS study for that area, he said (after some digging) "the court has radar studies" they use in court cases! I have not made it down to the court, but it sounds like a lost cause to me...

    It looks like traffic school...thanks for taking the time to play the devil's advocate and poke holes in my arguments...
  • 10-07-2013, 03:07 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone
    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Regarding the school picture, the section of lawn you see is not fenced along the road

    That means that the school grounds are not separated from the highway by a fence, gate, or other physical barrier; they could put security guards on that end of the school but that would not be considered a fence, a gate or a physical barrier by anyone's description.

    And so what pictures did you have then? Pictures showing a fence on the far end of that school, on a different roadway? And yet you did not specify any of that. You simply stated "Also, there is a gate and fences surrounding the property, and no students are on any of the (fenced) grounds during lunch (I have pics)"!!!

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Regarding the school picture, the section of lawn you see is not fenced along the road, but it is at the far end, near the school. The football, tennis, gym areas are fenced. A school administrator told me on the phone that the lawn area facing the street is outside the fences and is off limits to students during school hours.

    No, seriously... You keep repeating the same statements hoping they will stick. Tell me then, which school is it that offers its students a -come when you wish and leave when you please- policy on attendance? And I could just see some seniors during the last few weeks of school looking back at the administration building thinking: "What are they gonna do? Suspend me?"

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    However...I talked to the dept of public works engineer in some detail. While he again said he did not have an ETS study for that area, he said (after some digging) "the court has radar studies" they use in court cases!

    Well, I'll be darn...

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    It looks like traffic school...thanks for taking the time to play the devil's advocate and poke holes in my arguments...

    I didn't have to poke holes into anything. I'll repeat what I said earlier: the burden to justify the speed limit is upon the prosecution; but that only applies in court. Before you get to court, anyone fighting a case without planning a defense is taking a chance and in this case, preparing a defense can only come through determining how the speed limit was set.

    I may have missed the fact that the sign you posted lacked any specific mention requiring the presence of children, but it was your other claims that clouded the issue. This thread should have been over in 4 posts, max...
  • 10-08-2013, 09:26 AM
    Mackieman
    Re: Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone
    Well, as I said earlier, this is my first time dealing with traffic court, speed limits, school zones, citations, ETS, etc. My understanding of the issues was murky. I am still confused, but on a higher level!

    Even though you seemed more eager to "convict" than to help me explore avenues to defend successfully, and your language strikes me as consistently condescending and aggressive, I still appreciate the value of your perspective.
  • 10-08-2013, 11:26 AM
    That Guy
    Re: Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone
    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Well, as I said earlier, this is my first time dealing with traffic court, speed limits, school zones, citations, ETS, etc. My understanding of the issues was murky. I am still confused, but on a higher level!

    Understandable... And yet you still offered some information and held back other.

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Even though you seemed more eager to "convict" than to help me explore avenues to defend successfully.

    You had no avenues to explore! I am not a magician. I cannot make something out of nothing! Regardless of how you twisted the information you had, you were hoping for a miracle that wasn't going to happen. Did you not read my comment that this thread should have ended in 4 posts? The reason it stretched out to 16 post this far was not because I was eager to convict, but because you were slow to provide information that was elementary. No matter how you look at it, my original assessment was accurate even with as little information as you provided; and not because I was eager to convict, but because that is the story you brought with you. I did not change or dictate any of the facts nor did I enact any of the laws.

    Would you have preferred if I had agreed with you that you had a slam dunk of a case only to turn around and have you pull the rug from under your own self?

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    ... and your language strikes me as consistently condescending and aggressive, I still appreciate the value of your perspective.

    If you think my language is condescending, then please, do yourself a favor and take your arguments and your points that you brought up here with you to court, repeat a few times (like you did here) even after being told they do not apply/are irrelevant, then let me know how you feel after getting shredded to pieces by the judge /commissioner.

    But since you opened up the door for a personal critique, I feel you were trying to mislead me from the get go by claiming ignorance all while you were being underhanded by not revealing relevant facts. I am not sure how me giving you the wrong answers based on you giving me the wrong information would benefit you in any way, and at the end of the day, I still feel you had more information than you've made known, all of which did nothing but stretch this story out far beyond its limits.

    No matter how you look at it, you were under no obligation to continue to subject your self to my consistently aggressive and condescending language. Interestingly enough, you were able to tolerate me up until you got your last and final answer!
  • 10-08-2013, 11:09 PM
    Mackieman
    Re: Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone
    Perhaps I was late in coming with relevant facts, because I was not knowledgeable about which facts were relevant. I assure you I was not trying to mislead you, be underhanded, or waste your time. I apologize for creating that impression!

    While I agree I was concerned about the lawn at the front of the high school, it is also true grounds the students use during the school day are in fact fenced in. If you expand these pictures, you will see the fences. There is also a gate to the driveway, although it is open. (I am uploading with the docs that had broken links, just FYI.)
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ew837tvx7...7-?n=120692905

    In any event, I had my court hearing today and for anyone wondering what happened, here it is:

    When I got to the court I asked a bailiff if the radar book was the same thing as an Engineering and Traffic Survey and he said no. So I decided to argue my case just for the hell of it (I had spent too much time working on it to throw in the towel) and was prepared to present my shaky everything-but-the-kitchen-sink defense:

    - Motion for dismissal based on unanswered discovery request.

    - Motion for dismissal based on speed trap, hoping "it is not a school zone at that time" because of the "no children coming or going" and the perimeter fencing would hold up. If it did, I'd then hope the radar book was not a true ETS or maybe the citing officer did not have POST certification on his radar training. The radar study was seven years old in August, so I would assert it was not admissible.

    - If that fell apart, I planned to use the nine months that had passed, the ~1000 citations the officer had issued in the meantime, the incorrect written notes and lots of questions to demonstrate that the officer could not possibly remember my citation and therefore was not a credible witness.

    But (luckily for me) my case was never heard!

    The citing officer requested dismissal, and my case was dismissed.

    Why this happened, I can only guess:
    I had made several discovery requests which went unheeded. Finally, on the third request, the arresting officer provided some of the information, but not all. I had asked for the speed at which he had cited each of the hundreds of speeding tickets he issued this year (suspecting a large percentage would be at 41, the cut-off for higher fines). I had asked for information on the calibration of the tuning forks, which apparently was not available. Finally, I asked for a copy of his written notes before he altered them.

    From what I learned on this forum and from reading the traffic code and other sources, it seems none of these requests were even relevant.

    So, it is a mystery.

    Of course many other citing officers did not show up at all, and the many defendants' cases were dismissed. Only one other besides mine was dismissed based on the citing officer's request, and she also had made a discover request which went unanswered.

    Thanks again for your help.
  • 10-09-2013, 12:01 AM
    ptatohed
    Re: Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone
    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Perhaps I was late in coming with relevant facts, because I was not knowledgeable about which facts were relevant. I assure you I was not trying to mislead you, be underhanded, or waste your time. I apologize for creating that impression!

    While I agree I was concerned about the lawn at the front of the high school, it is also true grounds the students use during the school day are in fact fenced in. If you expand these pictures, you will see the fences. There is also a gate to the driveway, although it is open. (I am uploading with the docs that had broken links, just FYI.)
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ew837tvx7...7-?n=120692905

    In any event, I had my court hearing today and for anyone wondering what happened, here it is:

    When I got to the court I asked a bailiff if the radar book was the same thing as an Engineering and Traffic Survey and he said no. So I decided to argue my case just for the hell of it (I had spent too much time working on it to throw in the towel) and was prepared to present my shaky everything-but-the-kitchen-sink defense:

    - Motion for dismissal based on unanswered discovery request.

    - Motion for dismissal based on speed trap, hoping "it is not a school zone at that time" because of the "no children coming or going" and the perimeter fencing would hold up. If it did, I'd then hope the radar book was not a true ETS or maybe the citing officer did not have POST certification on his radar training. The radar study was seven years old in August, so I would assert it was not admissible.

    - If that fell apart, I planned to use the nine months that had passed, the ~1000 citations the officer had issued in the meantime, the incorrect written notes and lots of questions to demonstrate that the officer could not possibly remember my citation and therefore was not a credible witness.

    But (luckily for me) my case was never heard!

    The citing officer requested dismissal, and my case was dismissed.

    Why this happened, I can only guess:
    I had made several discovery requests which went unheeded. Finally, on the third request, the arresting officer provided some of the information, but not all. I had asked for the speed at which he had cited each of the hundreds of speeding tickets he issued this year (suspecting a large percentage would be at 41, the cut-off for higher fines). I had asked for information on the calibration of the tuning forks, which apparently was not available. Finally, I asked for a copy of his written notes before he altered them.

    From what I learned on this forum and from reading the traffic code and other sources, it seems none of these requests were even relevant.

    So, it is a mystery.

    Of course many other citing officers did not show up at all, and the many defendants' cases were dismissed. Only one other besides mine was dismissed based on the citing officer's request, and she also had made a discover request which went unanswered.

    Thanks again for your help.

    Nice. Congrats. Thanks for sharing.
  • 10-11-2013, 05:53 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Radar Ticket For Speeding in a School Zone
    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    But (luckily for me) my case was never heard!

    The citing officer requested dismissal, and my case was dismissed.

    This seems to have been a theme this past week... While I have been on traffic forums for years, and have only heard of it happening once, may be twice... And here it is happening twice in less than one week, possibly three times (though the third time may have been in a case that was at the TBD stage). So I'm not sure if its a copycat officer or the more likely copycat defendant that has caused this. Needless to say, and until we hear the officer's version of what transpired and how it was in the interest of justice to request a dismissal, it still has zero impact on whatever viable defense was discussed and concluded here.

    Actually, wait... With this one:

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Only one other besides mine was dismissed based on the citing officer's request...

    That makes for four cases in less than a week.

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Why this happened, I can only guess:
    I had made several discovery requests which went unheeded. Finally, on the third request, the arresting officer provided some of the information, but not all.

    Simply because he is not obligated to provide you with everything you ask for.

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    I had asked for the speed at which he had cited each of the hundreds of speeding tickets he issued this year (suspecting a large percentage would be at 41, the cut-off for higher fines).

    And you seriously anticipated that someone at the PD was going to take the time to sift through what you estimated to be 1000 citations (who knows what sort of method you used to arrive at your estimate) to determine what speeds these unrelated citations were issued at, only to disclose those results to you, then you are only fooling yourself. But hold on for a minute... If the officer lied about the speed he cited you for, why would he disclose the contents of hundreds of citations that aren't in any way related to yours, and worse yet, content that is likely to imply some sort of misconduct on his part?

    But that is not all... Let it be known that the discovery laws simply require the party receiving the request to provide the requested material to the requesting party for inspection. And if you want copies, or if you want something researched or dug up from archives,then the party providing this information is entitled to getting reimbursed for reasonable costs of duplication and/or research... So would you have been willing to pay for an officer's wages while they did the research on your behalf? Or would you suggest that they provide you with 1000 copies which at a reasonable $0.25 to $0.50 a copy can amount to duplication fees of anywhere between $250 and $500 just for that item alone? This is only a part of you preparing to argue that your fine amount was increased by $129 (= $368 - $238)??? And you were going to take this a step further and request a dismissal because it was not provided? I would ask you if you were joking but I seriously believe you really think you had a chance!

    Still, here is how ridiculous of a request yours was... You are assuming that this one officer only issues speeding citations... But in addition, you are assuming that all the speeding citations that he issues are issued in a 25 mph speed zone and therefore the 41 mph cutoff would apply to being the higher fine bracket for a speeding citation.

    The question you need to consider is this... If the officer is making up these speeds, (as if he would benefit somehow), and since each and every defendant is going to deny driving at the cited speed, but since their denial would mean zilch to the court, why would he not attempt to increase his "production" to a higher level by citing at 51 mph and that way he's grossing $490 per citation.. Instead of the lousy $367 that you would have otherwise paid?

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    I had asked for information on the calibration of the tuning forks, which apparently was not available.

    Which apparently is because tuning forks are not a necessary requirement with most Radar guns having a self test button. But regardless of method of testing calibration, there is no requirement to test tuning forks or radar guns for non-speed trap cases.

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    Finally, I asked for a copy of his written notes before he altered them.

    "... his written notes... before he altered them". They are his notes... At what point in time should his ability to add, remove or change any of them should be restricted? Lets look at your notes for example... Assuming you stopped briefly after getting cited to write down a few notes of your own... At what point in time would you assume that is it... These are my notes and I am at the point in time where my story cannot change?

    And lastly... The comment that should not be undermined...

    Quote:

    Quoting Mackieman
    View Post
    But (luckily for me) my case was never heard!

    Luckily for you, does not even begin to describe it.
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst Previous 1 2
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:52 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.4
Copyright © 2023 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
Copyright © 2004 - 2018 ExpertLaw.com, All Rights Reserved