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Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School

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  • 09-14-2013, 08:09 PM
    Apexeon
    Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California, vehicle code 22350 (Basic Speed Limit Law).

    I was found guilty in my Trial by Written Declaration. I requested a trial de novo, here is my question:

    I want to fight the ticket, but not at the expense of doing traffic school (which i would have to request at the trial) so at court should I just plead No Contest and request traffic school? Or is it possible to actually defend yourself and request traffic school if found guilty? I'm just not quite sure of the procedure with respect to when you might enter your plea, the verdict, and the traffic school request. Yes I've looked at the procedure manual for California court.

    The citation was for 60 in a 45 on Niles Canyon Road in Fremont, CA. I do believe that area is a speed trap. Though Fremont's online latest engineering survey dated October, 2008 mentions this road as an intersection it does not actually mention the street as being engineer surveyed. I'm assuming it's a state route (84), so I've submitted an online request to CalTrains for such a document.

    Lastly, I understand to build a defense I should do an informal discovery request and have documents "served." Does that mean I can just certify mail the requests or is there another procedure? My court date is 10/1/13, so that might limit my options in terms of timeliness.

    i intend to use this as a guide. Again the focus of this post is whether or not I can defend myself, be convicted and somehow request traffic school. Don't want my insurance going up :)

    Also, I had called the court and, after 45 minutes on hold, was told that I could send a letter addressed to the "Traffic Comissioner" to request Traffic School. I did this ~2 weeks ago and have yet to receive a response.
  • 09-16-2013, 01:06 PM
    ptatohed
    Re: Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    Apex, to answer your thread title question - the answer is no. You do not need to choose b/t TDN and the option to request TS. However, when at your TDN, you may need to choose between pleading not-guilty and TS. In my opinion, you should not have to choose between pleading not-guilty and TS (see below) but it appears that many courts (including my one experience with the Temecula traffic court) does make you decide (if you choose to plead not-guilty, you have forfitted your right to request TS)


    Quote:

    Quoting Apexeon
    View Post
    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California, vehicle code 22350 (Basic Speed Limit Law).

    I was found guilty in my Trial by Written Declaration. I requested a trial de novo, here is my question:

    I want to fight the ticket, but not at the expense of doing traffic school (which i would have to request at the trial) so at court should I just plead No Contest and request traffic school? Or is it possible to actually defend yourself and request traffic school if found guilty? I'm just not quite sure of the procedure with respect to when you might enter your plea, the verdict, and the traffic school request. Yes I've looked at the procedure manual for California court.
    Again, there 'should' be no restrictions on the order in which one makes a plea, goes to trial and requests TS. See CA Rules of the Court Rule 4.104 and BenchGuide 82 Section 82.63. To me it is a form of coercing or bullying someone who would like to otherwise plead not-guilty and excercise their right to trial into simply pleading not-guilty out of fear of losing the TS option. But, with all that said, it doesn't matter what my feelings are, the fact is the courts do practice a policy that forfeits a defendant's option for TS if they plead not-guilty. so keep that in mind.

    The citation was for 60 in a 45 on Niles Canyon Road in Fremont, CA. I do believe that area is a speed trap. Though Fremont's online latest engineering survey dated October, 2008 mentions this road as an intersection it does not actually mention the street as being engineer surveyed. I'm assuming it's a state route (84), so I've submitted an online request to CalTrains for such a document. I am not sure why you believe it is a speed trap without having obtained the ETS yet. ?

    Lastly, I understand to build a defense I should do an informal discovery request and have documents "served." Does that mean I can just certify mail the requests or is there another procedure? My court date is 10/1/13, so that might limit my options in terms of timeliness. I have never made a discovery request, sorry. Hopefully someone else can help.

    i intend to use this as a guide. Again the focus of this post is whether or not I can defend myself, be convicted and somehow request traffic school. Don't want my insurance going up :) I did that too. It hurt me. That website can be helpful but can really, really hurt in the fact that it makes you way overconfident to beat a "slam dunk" 22350 conviction. I tried it, it didn't work. Be careful.

    Also, I had called the court and, after 45 minutes on hold, was told that I could send a letter addressed to the "Traffic Comissioner" to request Traffic School. I did this ~2 weeks ago and have yet to receive a response. Requesting TS via mail seems contradictory to requesting a TDN, no?

    Good luck.
  • 09-16-2013, 03:41 PM
    Apexeon
    Re: Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    Quote:

    Quoting ptatohed
    View Post
    Apex, to answer your thread title question - the answer is no. You do not need to choose b/t TDN and the option to request TS. However, when at your TDN, you may need to choose between pleading not-guilty and TS. In my opinion, you should not have to choose between pleading not-guilty and TS (see below) but it appears that many courts (including my one experience with the Temecula traffic court) does make you decide (if you choose to plead not-guilty, you have forfitted your right to request TS)




    Good luck.

    Thanks for responding.

    I received a phone call from someone (probably should've gotten the name) from the court saying they had received my secondary mail about Traffic school versus my Trial de Novo. He said yes I can take traffic school and implied that I should cancel my trial. He said he would send me documents to complete.

    What I will do is go to California Transportation Department this week, look at the speed survey. If it is past 5 years (how will I know if it's been extended?), then I will continue with my trial under the speed trap rulings. If it is within 5 years, then I will cancel my trial and just go to traffic school. As entertaining as it would be to actually go to court and play lawyer (assuming the cop shows up), I'm thinking it may not be worth my time to play "his word vs my word" with the support of his stating that I wasn't driving dangerously.
  • 09-16-2013, 06:06 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    You're free to buy into any of the "crap" (no other way to describe it) about traffic school.

    First, let me clarify one of your many misunderstandings. When you requested a TBD, you in effect, entered a "not guilty" plea and requested a trial. When you lost the TBD and then requested a TDN, you again, in effect, refused to accept the results of the TBD and in addition to pleading not guilty again, you requested a court trial. As such, you will NOT get another opportunity to enter a plea. When you appear in court, the judge will not ask you "how do you plea?", instead, the question will be directed at the officer to present his testimony. You should be prepared for trial, not for a plea entry and a decision as to whether still want to go to traffic school or not!

    Fact is, and while a defendant is typically automatically qualified to request, qualify, pay for and attend traffic school (unless one of the disqualifying conditions exist in his/her case) once you elected a TBD or a trial, and if you were found guilty, you cannot simply go to the clerk's window, request, pay for and attend traffic school as you would have otherwise been able to before a TBD or a trial! If you were to try, the clerk will simply tell you that you must be granted permission from the court to do so. Otherwise, "sorry, there is nothing [they] can do".

    We can all sit her making up our own conclusions just to be different. But that leaves you in a position where now, since you don't know any different, and while you where hoping things may work out in your favor, they might end up working the opposite with you having no recourse at all. Just like you were mislead about what you could accomplish by requesting discovery, just like you were mislead into believing that the HelpIGotATicket website will provide you any sort of legitimate chance to prevail, you are being mislead into believing that traffic school merely requires you making such a request and the court is obligated to grant it when in fact, the court has discretion before granting any traffic school request and the rules, the case law, and the benchguide all lead to the same answer:

    While the court shall not deny traffic school based on a defendants plea, the court can simply deny someones request AND the court is not obligated to disclosed its reasons for the denial.

    Now, a judge who is sitting on the bench in traffic court is either familiar with the case law and the rules that are involved. Or he had to have recently reviewed the Benchguide which includes ample references to the court not having to disclose its reasons for the denial. So whether you see it as "coercing", bullying" or twisting your arm, don't expect that a judge is going to be ignorant enough to make on the record statements about your traffic school request allowing you the opportunity to appeal the decision at all.

    In this case, you stated that someone from the court contacted you regarding your request... If in fact, that court allows a random request for traffic school after a TBD or a trial, do you think anyone would have gone out of their way to contact you, or do you think the decision would be "it doesn't make a difference when you make the request, you will still be granted a traffic school request after a trial" and therefore, no one would have made the added effort to contact you?

    So the answer to your question is: if you are not confident about have any sort of defense than you should have opted for traffic school from the get go. I you didn't and you are still not confident about your case and you happened to get the opportunity to cancel your trial and take traffic school, then this may in fact be your only opportunity to do so.

    Aside from that, the 5 year qualifier is not the only criteria that must be met which would then imply that an illegal speed trap was conducted and therefore the citation must be dismissed. But just because "you feel this is a speed trap it does not make it so and just because the city described it as a n intersection does not mean it was not surveyed. If you have not obtained a copy of the survey then you have no defense and yet you plan on attending, yet a second trial instead of bailing out... On what basis?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote:

    Quoting Apexeon
    View Post
    I'm thinking it may not be worth my time to play "his word vs my word" with the support of his stating that I wasn't driving dangerously.

    The fact that you were driving at 15 mph in excess of what was likely determined as being the "safe and prudent" speed limit, you were in violation of the law... So not only is it "he said, you said"... Its "they said, you said".... And "they" not only includes drivers who unknowingly were surveyed with regards to their speed, but the state legislature agrees that your exceeding the posted PF limit, implies your being in violation of the law.

    22351

    (b) The speed of any vehicle upon a highway in excess of the prima facie speed limits in Section 22352 or established as authorized in this code is prima facie unlawful unless the defendant establishes by competent evidence that the speed in excess of said limits did not constitute a violation of the basic speed law at the time, place and under the conditions then existing.
  • 09-16-2013, 06:42 PM
    ptatohed
    Re: Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    Quote:

    Quoting Apexeon
    View Post
    Thanks for responding.

    I received a phone call from someone (probably should've gotten the name) from the court saying they had received my secondary mail about Traffic school versus my Trial de Novo. He said yes I can take traffic school and implied that I should cancel my trial. He said he would send me documents to complete.

    What I will do is go to California Transportation Department this week, look at the speed survey. If it is past 5 years (how will I know if it's been extended?), then I will continue with my trial under the speed trap rulings. If it is within 5 years, then I will cancel my trial and just go to traffic school. As entertaining as it would be to actually go to court and play lawyer (assuming the cop shows up), I'm thinking it may not be worth my time to play "his word vs my word" with the support of his stating that I wasn't driving dangerously.

    You are welcome. With Negative-Nelly TG's reply aside, in my experience, you can still opt for TS on the court date of your TDN. Unlike TG who recommends you immediately give up any attempt to escape the citation charge and request TS right off the bat, I would suggest to anyone, at a minimum to try TBWD and then TDN and at least show up to your court date. If your officer is present, then change your plea to guilty and request TS (if you qualify). In my experience, it was that easy. Don't let TG scare you. I think he runs a Traffic School or something so he is financially motivated to scream "TS" to everyone. ;) On my court date, the 20 or so defendants dropped to 15 or so real quick after those whose officer didn't appear were dismissed. I can't say that the odds are always 25% but they were in my experience. Good luck.
  • 09-16-2013, 08:17 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    Quote:

    Quoting ptatohed
    View Post
    If your officer is present, then change your plea to guilty and request TS.

    And at that point, and by doing so, you are clearly proving that your only attempt here was to abuse the process, you occupy a court time slot that could have been otherwise used by a more deserving defendant, you waste the court's time and the officer's time by making him appear, all while making it clear that you really had no purpose for being there except to you explore the potential of whether the officer will appear or not and this, in your opinion should then oblige the court to bow down to your request for traffic school?

    Are you really this stupid or is this all an act?

    Quote:

    Quoting ptatohed
    View Post
    In my experience, it was that easy.

    OK... So to top off your ineptitude, you have to lie too?

    You lost your TBD (all while you had no defense to speak of), and requested a TDN (all while you had no justifiable reason to go to a TDN), you lost a TDN and are now appealing (all while you were told by 4 (or was it 5) people that you had no valid grounds for an appeal).

    Had you been granted the traffic school option by simply changing your plea, as in "pleading guilty and requesting traffic school". Then you cannot appeal simply because there is no appeal from a "guilty" plea.

    So you are either lying about "this being your experience"... Or you are lying about appealing"... It does not matter which is which... What matters is that you are an idiot and a liar!

    Quote:

    Quoting ptatohed
    View Post
    I think he runs a Traffic School or something so he is financially motivated to scream "TS" to everyone.

    You should have stopped at "I think"... You are simply incapable... And I don't scream anything to anyone. I simply inform them that the court is not under any obligation to allow them the traffic school option after a TBD or a trial. But I can see how it would be difficult for you to understand that simple a statement.

    Quote:

    Quoting ptatohed
    View Post
    On my court date, the 20 or so defendants dropped to 15 or so real quick after those whose officer didn't appear were dismissed. I can't say that the odds are always 25% but they were in my experience.

    You don't know the circumstances of any of the 20 other people who were there or what happened in their cases. And since none of those cases were "your experience", you are in fact a liar!
  • 09-16-2013, 10:36 PM
    Apexeon
    Re: Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    Quote:

    Quoting ptatohed
    View Post
    You are welcome. With Negative-Nelly TG's reply aside, in my experience, you can still opt for TS on the court date of your TDN. Unlike TG who recommends you immediately give up any attempt to escape the citation charge and request TS right off the bat, I would suggest to anyone, at a minimum to try TBWD and then TDN and at least show up to your court date. If your officer is present, then change your plea to guilty and request TS (if you qualify). In my experience, it was that easy. Don't let TG scare you. I think he runs a Traffic School or something so he is financially motivated to scream "TS" to everyone. ;) On my court date, the 20 or so defendants dropped to 15 or so real quick after those whose officer didn't appear were dismissed. I can't say that the odds are always 25% but they were in my experience. Good luck.

    The city emailed me a copy of the ETS, signed and dated March 3, 2008. Which means it's outside of the 5 year limit. But I understand that in some circumstances this can be extended to 7 years, though I'm not sure if it's the case for this particular ETS. I will wait for these documents the court spokesperson is going to send me.


    TG you have useful information on other threads. On this thread, and hopefully for future reference, it really doesn't matter how smart you are if you impart information with such sour disposition. No seriously. With so many pleasant ways to state facts, I'm somewhat amused with your assumptions. Nevertheless thank you for your...demeaning feedback(?).
  • 09-17-2013, 12:56 AM
    ptatohed
    Re: Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    And at that point, and by doing so, you are clearly proving that your only attempt here was to abuse the process, Tell me what is abusive about it? you occupy a court time slot that could have been otherwise used by a more deserving defendant, LOL - I would love for you to define what you think is a 'deserving defendant'! Because everyone is guilty per you!! And there is no 'time slot', it's one start time for everyone. you waste the court's time and the officer's time by making him appear, all while making it clear that you really had no purpose for being there except to you explore the potential of whether the officer will appear or not and this, in your opinion should then oblige the court to bow down to your request for traffic school? You're not making any sense. If one were to do what I suggested (as a minimum - meaning short of going in front of the judge to plead not-guilty), then TS would be available to them if they changed their plea. So what is it you're trying to say?

    Are you really this stupid or is this all an act? So it is 'stupid' to go to court to see if the witness for the state is there? You're innocent until the state proves you guilty, correct? Or no, per you? It is any defendant's right to go to court and plea however they want. Don't dare tell me otherwise. You're the only person I have ever "met" who advises others not to fight traffic tickets (and somehow, I suspect you fight your traffic tickets - hypocrite). On the day of my trial, even the court bailiff said to us "I'd do the same thing - I'd come to court to see if my officer showed and, if so, I'd change my plea".



    OK... So to top off your ineptitude, you have to lie too?

    You lost your TBD (all while you had no defense to speak of), and requested a TDN (all while you had no justifiable reason to go to a TDN), you lost a TDN and are now appealing (all while you were told by 4 (or was it 5) people that you had no valid grounds for an appeal). I remember in elementary school, I tape recorded my friend's Ozzy Osbourne 'Bark at the Moon' record. We set it up to record, went out to skateboard and came back hours later. I remember being so excited to have the 'new' Ozzy tape. I went home and at about the third song, the record player must have skipped and the "broken record" was caught on my tape and I had to listen to the same sentence about 20 times before it moved on. I feel that way with you!

    Had you been granted the traffic school option by simply changing your plea, as in "pleading guilty and requesting traffic school". Then you cannot appeal simply because there is no appeal from a "guilty" plea.

    So you are either lying about "this being your experience"... Or you are lying about appealing"... It does not matter which is which... What matters is that you are an idiot and a liar! What the f is wrong in your screwed up head dude? You've got serious problems. When did I ever say I requested TS or even wanted to request TS?? NEVER!!! So, because I didn't want, request, nor get offered TS, that means I am not allowed to share with you what I observed the day I was there? I'm telling you the judge told everyone at the beginning that if they changed their plea to guilty, they could request TS. If they pled not-guilty (as did I), went before him, was found guilty (as did I), you could not then request TS (as I did not). Where is the lie brainiac? You are mental man. I hope you don't have kids.



    You should have stopped at "I think"... You are simply incapable... And I don't scream anything to anyone. I simply inform them that the court is not under any obligation to allow them the traffic school option after a TBD or a trial. No, it's never 'simply' with you. It's always with a gigantic dose of excessive doucheness! But I can see how it would be difficult for you to understand that simple a statement. Wow, talk about not understanding. What's funny is you don't understand what you don't understand - that's why you say what you say.



    You don't know the circumstances of any of the 20 other people who were there or what happened in their cases. And since none of those cases were "your experience", you are in fact a liar!

    LOL! I was sitting in a chair amongst 19 (or so) other people and the judge called out people's names (about 5) whose officer was not present and whose cases were dismissed for that reason and that they were free to go. How you can turn that observable fact which I am sharing with the forum into a "lie" is phenomenal. It's almost reverse-genius. It's like you are super-stupid.
  • 09-17-2013, 05:38 AM
    That Guy
    Re: Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    Quote:

    Quoting Apexeon
    View Post
    TG you have useful information on other threads. On this thread, and hopefully for future reference, it really doesn't matter how smart you are if you impart information with such sour disposition. No seriously. With so many pleasant ways to state facts, I'm somewhat amused with your assumptions. Nevertheless thank you for your...demeaning feedback(?).

    I would ask you what assumptions I made that were incorrect? But it really matters not... My assumptions are based on what you described as facts in your case. And even my one or two far out hypotheticals were simply made to illustrate a point. If you are under the impression that I came to post in this thread to offend you rather than correct all the crap you were getting fed, then I obviously wasted my time and energy trying to set you on the right track. Suit yourself then... Pretend all my assumptions are invalid and pretend that all of the demeaning references were towards you and not towards the one person whose comments will end up hurting you come your court day. Now that I know your reaction, I know they were well deserved either way! You came here asking for help and yet you seem to be more pleased by being misguided... Carry on then, and excuse me for distracting you in any way!
  • 09-17-2013, 08:10 AM
    Apexeon
    Re: Do You Have to Choose Between Trial de Novo and Traffic School
    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    I would ask you what assumptions I made that were incorrect? But it really matters not... My assumptions are based on what you described as facts in your case. And even my one or two far out hypotheticals were simply made to illustrate a point. If you are under the impression that I came to post in this thread to offend you rather than correct all the crap you were getting fed, then I obviously wasted my time and energy trying to set you on the right track. Suit yourself then... Pretend all my assumptions are invalid and pretend that all of the demeaning references were towards you and not towards the one person whose comments will end up hurting you come your court day. Now that I know your reaction, I know they were well deserved either way! You came here asking for help and yet you seem to be more pleased by being misguided... Carry on then, and excuse me for distracting you in any way!

    Get over yourself.
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