My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: Georgia. Code 40-6-163. "a) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this Code section, the driver of a vehicle meeting or overtaking from either direction any school bus stopped on the highway shall stop before reaching such school bus when there are in operation on the school bus the visual signals as specified in Code Sections 40-8-111 and 40-8-115, and such driver shall not proceed until the school bus resumes motion or the visual signals are no longer actuated."
I really enjoy how you guys tell folks like it is. I'd like to know if I have a solid argument in either obtaining a reduced fine or some type of reduced penalty at the very least. I'm not trying to skate out of anything and I did commit the violation. However I do believe there are circumstances involved that lead to an accidental violation as opposed to a premeditated or willful violation. I was issued a mailed notice of violation for the aforementioned code and it has three pictures along with a video you can view online. I went ahead and reviewed the video. Stop here if an accidental or willful violation won't make a difference. I'm hoping I can use the term "necessity".
In my case, you can see in the video that approximately 1.5 seconds elapsed from the time the stop arm was fully extended to the time it took my vehicle to actually pass the stop sign.
The average reaction time of the human brain (as heavily studied and used as national standards by road and highway safety engineers, see the AASHTO
Green Book[2011] which Georgia DOT has adopted as a standard) to such aforementioned traffic signals is approximately 2.5 seconds. The speed limit posted is 45 MPH or 66 feet per second. As shown by the camera from the time of the arm being fully extended and my vehicle passing the stop sign at 66 feet per second and approximately 1.5 seconds, that places me 69 feet from the rear of the bus at the time the stop arm was deployed. Considering school buses are on average 38 to 40 feet in length and the camera is presumably located approximately 10 feet from the front of the bus, we can come to a figure of 69 feet (99 ft before bus length is calculated) from the bumper of the bus at the time of arm deployment.
Highway traffic and safety engineers have some general guidelines they have developed over the years and hold now as standards. As an example, if a street surface is dry, the average driver can safely decelerate an automobile or light truck with reasonably good tires at the rate of about 15 feet per second (fps). That is, a driver can slow down at this rate without anticipated probability that control of the vehicle will be lost in the process.
The measure of velocity is distance divided by time (fps), stated as feet per second. The measure of acceleration (or deceleration in this case) is feet per second per second. That assumes a reasonably good co-efficient of friction of about .75; better is .8 or higher while conditions or tire quality might yield a worse factor of .7 or lower.
No matter the velocity, that velocity is reduced 15 fps every second. If the initial velocity is 60 mph, 88 fps, after 1 second elapsed, the vehicle velocity would be 73 fps, after 2 seconds it would be 58 fps decreasing progressively thereafter. For the true mathematical perfectionist (one who carries PI to 1000 decimal places), it would have been technically correct to indicated the formula is 'fpsps' rather than 'fps', but far less understandable to most drivers. Since at speeds of 200 mph or less, the difference from one method to the other is in thousandths of seconds, my calculations in these examples are based on the simple fps calculations.
Given the previous set of conditions, it would mean that a driver could stop the described vehicle in a total of 6.87 seconds (including a 1 second delay for driver reaction) and your total stopping distance would be 302.28 feet, slightly more than a football field in length!
Virtually all current production vehicles' published road braking performance tests indicate stopping distances from 60 mph that are typically 120 to 140 feet, slightly less than half of the projected safety distances. While the figures are probably achievable, they are not realistic and certainly not average; they tend to be misleading and to those that actually read them, they create a false sense of security.
To determine how far my vehicle will travel while braking, use the formula of 1/2 the initial velocity multiplied by the time required to stop. In this case, this works out to be .5 * 66 * 3.0 = 99 feet, plus a reaction time of either 88 feet for a second delay in reaction time, or 176 feet for two seconds reaction time. That yields 187 feet or 275 feet when added to the base stopping distance of 99 feet. If I am very responsive and takes only a half a second to react, the distance is reduced to between 143 and 231 feet. Notice that the reaction time is a huge factor since it is at initial velocity.
Therefore, if my vehicle position is a mere 69 feet off the rear bumper of the bus at the time of the stop arm deployment and it clearly takes between 143 and 231 feet to safely stop the vehicle from 45 mph or 66 feet per second. I would have been effectively stopped 3 to 4 seconds and 118 to 206 feet past the school bus and past the threat of imminent danger to child safety. To put this into perspective, if my reaction time was on the high end of 2 seconds, it would have taken me 3/4 of a football field to stop safely. The only other alternative would have been to slam on my brakes to unsafely stop the vehicle and risk a rear end collision or losing control of the vehicle in the distance and time provided by the video evidence.
It is my argument that given the distance of my vehicle from the bus, the rate of permissible travel at 45 mph or 66 fps, perception time, reaction time and the distance required to safely stop, I simply did not have enough distance from the bus to facilitate a safe stop at the time the arm was deployed. If you take into account that the school bus was in a turning lane, it could be considered plausible that one would assume the bus is turning and not stopping and this would only add to the confusion and reaction time. By the time the bus arm was activated and my vehicle had passed (1.5 to 2 seconds) the activated arm, my ability to perceive and react had already been used up. I'm getting my timing from the video and assuming I was doing the speed limit of 45 mph on that road. If I was going faster, which the flow of traffic in Atlanta usually is, my stopping distance would have been even further and that much further past the point of doing any justice for child safety.
I'm hoping I can get the judge to see the Prima-facie evidence available in the video. I could be completely out of the ballpark here too. Any input is appreciated. Go easy on me ;] This also brings another question to mind. Isn't the burden of proof on the state? Don't they have to prove that I was actually driving the vehicle? The code states that I can sign an affidavit saying it wasn't me but that I would have to provide the name of the person driving the vehicle. Doesn't this remove the burden of proof from the state? All they would be telling me is that they proved my car was registered to me at the time of the citation and that I would be obligated to snitch on someone to avoid the penalty. Also, wouldn't I be able to question the legitimacy and accuracy of the camera system? Don't I have a right to confront my accuser? In other words, couldn't I just object as soon as the clerk offered the evidence and call it hearsay if the officer who validated the imagery wasn't available? Even then, I can't cross examine the camera itself or anyone who is supposed to be able to validate that the camera system is accurate.
Ive been at this for 6 hours so excuse me if I'm rambling. Any insight is much appreciated.
Accidentally Failing to Yield for a School Bus
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09-04-2013, 06:59 PMtim0teeAccidentally Failing to Yield for a School Bus
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09-04-2013, 07:15 PMThat GuyRe: Will This Defense WorkYou are free to try and impress whatever idea you think will mitigate your chances for a better outcome. However, "intent" is not a required element that must be proven by the prosecution when arguing its case in a traffic matter. Fact is, most traffic violations happen "accidentally", even without the driver realizing them (or acknowledging them). But that does not change the level of guilt as guilt and/or innocence are not too subjective. You are either innocent or you are guilty. There are no in betweens.Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
Some courts may allow for a "guilty with an explanation".... Legally speaking, nothing of the soet exists as you are still "guilty" for all intents and purposes. But if it helps reduce your fine, then it may serve you best to use it if allowed...
Good luck! -
09-05-2013, 03:12 AMtim0teeRe: Will This Defense Work
A school bus is a rolling stopsign, though. I didnt have the reaction time availible as shown by the video. It was physically and mathematically impossible to stop anywhere behind the bus. That isnt an argument? Would I have a case had I stopped in the mathematically required distance of 3/4 the length of a football field passed the bus? Or would the picture prevail?
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09-05-2013, 09:02 PMThat GuyRe: Will This Defense WorkAnd therefore you would do well to try and control your speed as you approach or pass one which appears to be slowing down in preparation for what to you maybe an impossible task to stop when signaled to do so.Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
Why? Where you driving while distracted? Or were you under the influence of some thing that affected your reaction time? In either case, you would be admitting to yet another criminal charge that can be added on... Not the smartest defense plan!Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
Then you are admitting to driving at a speed that was too fast for conditions (with conditions meaning other vehicles on the same highway). Or (again) indirectly admitting to driving while distracted/under the influence. Even if no new charges are added as a result, you are sealing your own fate with a conviction.Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
No, it isn't an argument. If it were, everyone cited for this code section would simply state "it was physically and mathematically impossible to stop anywhere behind the bus" and they would be exonerated. This would then become a trend where everyone cited for a red light violation would make the same claim about it being "... physically and mathematically impossible to stop anywhere behind the line...".Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
Lets see... The statute mandates that under the described circumstances, you shall stop before reaching such school bus... And you are wondering if stopping 75 yards after passing the bus would be OK???Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
How about you think about that and let us know... -
09-05-2013, 09:13 PMadjusterjackRe: Accidentally Failing to Yield for a School BusI stopped at that sentence because traffic laws aren't written to make that distinction.Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
You either did it or you didn't.
And when you consider that judges have hundreds of people coming before them every day with imaginative stories and hopes of a dismissal or reduction you'll understand why judges make short work of them. -
09-05-2013, 09:47 PMjkRe: Accidentally Failing to Yield for a School BusQuote:
In my case, you can see in the video that approximately 1.5 seconds elapsed from the time the stop arm was fully extended to the time it took my vehicle to actually pass the stop sign.
and the yellow flashing lights, which is a warning the red lights are imminent, were on how long prior to the red lights illuminating and the arm extending? -
09-06-2013, 10:57 AMtim0teeRe: Will This Defense WorkI assumed as such, but this one will make my wife happy :)Quote:
Quoting That Guy
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I cannot cross examine the bus driver to ask that question as to whether or not she activated the lights in a reasonable amount of time. There is no police officer to examine, I can't examine the camera itself and I can't cross examine the individual that services these cameras to gaurantee the acurracy of the video/camera itself. It is not unlawful to not slow down for yellow lights. You should "use caution" and should slow down and is the reason yellow lights are set to approximately 3 seconds here in Georgia. If 3 seconds is the standard, what could I have done in 1.5? If the caution dictates that it will not be a safe stop, the cautionary thing to do would be to resume in the lane furthest from the bus (in this case, two full lanes over) and continue traveling.Quote:
Quoting jk
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09-06-2013, 11:03 AMjkRe: Will This Defense Work
My point was: you ignored the yellow lights or intentionally attempted to pass the bus before the red was activated and as such, have no defense.
all of your mumbo jumbo and calculations are nothing more than a humorous distraction -
09-06-2013, 11:08 AMtim0teeRe: Will This Defense Work
My answer to that would be "not long enough" hah. Either way I was obviously distracted sipping coffee or changing a radio station and didn't see the yellow lights or assumed it was turning out of the corner of my eye as it was in a turning lane. As originally stated, I'm not looking to get out of it completely. Just wanted to tell the judge it wasn't intentional. Obviously, he or she won't give a damn and it would be a waste of my gas money and time to even attempt it. Thanks for the nickels and dimes, gentlemen.
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My other assumption/argument was that if it's not unlawful to stop at a yellow, why wouldn't the perception/reaction time required to stop at a "pop out" stop sign be considered? It's a revenue generator and I understand that. Cause all the politicians talk about the generated revenue before the childrens safety. Who the hell picks up children in FRONT of a subdivision ON A FOUR LANE highway when all they had to do was turn INTO the subdivision and consider child safety that way. lol -
09-06-2013, 11:43 AMThat GuyRe: Will This Defense WorkI don't know where you're getting your statistics but you are about 1.5 seconds behind average! In other words, in hypothetical situations, driver reaction is considered on average at about 1 second. You even stated this in your first post:Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
You had to have misread something to conclude that the State of GA has adopted 2.5 seconds as a standard. Even Wikipedia, and in its article titled "Braking Distance" claims that the average "perception-reaction time" is "1.5 seconds".... And later described the "2.5 seconds" as being that of "a slow responding driver".Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
OK, so you were driving while distracted... Text messaging, was it?Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
The only "fact" that can be deduced in this case is that you failed to stop as required by law. That is the only "fact" that is of any relevance here. That is the element that must be proven by the prosecution to secure a conviction. All of your calculations, and in spite of you carrying some results to 3 decimal places, they are all speculative in nature simply because the video is not intended as a way to estimate your speed. And the only time that your speed can be utilized in this case is if was shown by the video to be zero mph. Any other speed means you are guilty as charged.Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
And you are definitely on your own on that one!Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
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The lights are activated in an automated sequence dictated by the entire process that includes the red lights coming on, the stop arm getting extended and the camera coming on to start the recording. The bus driver isn't capable of altering the timing or the process.Quote:
Quoting tim0tee
Also, I am not going to research the GA evidence code but often times, photographs and video evidence need not be authenticated and are not subject to your scrutiny as long as they are admitted into evidence by a government entity and are the product of its daily nature of business. But even if this video were subject to your examination, are you an expert witness that can testify to what elements may have been compromised to give the impression that you violated the code? If you are, then by all means, request it under discovery and run your tests. Even then, you are grasping for straws because the video is pretty simple. If you had stopped, it would show you stopped. The fact that you did not stop, is reflected accurately as such. And again, that is the only element that the video needs to prove.
As for your claim that there is no officer, someone issued that citation and it isn't the bus driver... If you have any questions for him/her the use the power of a subpoena to bring him in so he can explain it all to you. Problem is, you wouldn't know what to ask him/her about, neither would I, so why put on the act?