Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
My question involves child support in the State of: Virginia
I have a question and not really sure who to ask or what to do and happened across your site so hoping someone can help me out.
My other half has a child (who's in late 20's) and his former employer received a letter from the state stating that he had fulfilled his obligation after he turned 18 (almost 10 years ago). About 3 years ago, around the time that he and I started dating, he received a notice stating that he owed a large sum of money for child support arrears.
He found it rather odd that he would get that, seeing as how his former employer received the letter stating it was fulfilled.
He does not have a copy of such letter as the employer had to fill out the paper and send it back.
He telephoned the child support department immediately to ask why he was receiving such notice and they stated that the custodial parent moved to a different county and when she moved they reopened the case.
Around the same time that he received that notice, he went to renew his driver's license (around his birthday) and they told him that he could not because it was now suspended for failure to pay child support!
I don't have children nor have I had to deal with such an issue before, but would the state reopen the case just simply because she moved? I would think that she would have had to reopen it, no?
When he & I started dating I had asked if he had contact with his child and he said that she would not let him, even though the child was now over the age of 18!
I contacted her and we actually became cordial. In one of our conversations she stated to me that she owed the IRS approximately the same amount of money that the state was claiming he owed for back child support. It could be coincidental but it seemed rather odd to me.
At any rate, he contacted the agency and they were supposed to mail him an itemized listing of all payments. That never happened. He contacted at least 3 different times and nothing. He didn't receive any further letters, notices, for almost a year. Then they started coming approximately 2 to 3 times a year since. Not quarterly or monthly, just randomly.
Some of my questions are, who would have reopened the case? If the former employer (which is no longer in business) received the letter stating he fulfilled the obligation, is it right for them to reopen the case? And what can we do to fix this situation?
He hasn't been able to find a job because of not having a license. I have inquired about a hardship license so that he would at least be able to accept one of the numerous jobs he has been offered but can't because of no license, and I was told that they do not give hardship license for persons who have had their license suspended due to child support.
An old neighbor of mine had gotten a DUI and she was able to get a hardship license to go back and forth to work. If they can give persons who could have possibly hurt or killed someone or themselves a hardship license, why would they not do it for someone who wants their life back?
As an outsider looking at both sides of the coin, I would say she had the case reopened because she needs help financially.
Just last year she wanted to send the child to live with us (we live in a different state) and one week before she did a 360 and said she didn't want the child coming because she would lose some sort of benefits.
I don't get it and I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this mess. I want both parties to be happy and am trying to avoid having to hire an attorney to sort this out as I really don't have the means financially to help him adjust this situation. Is that the only choice I have?
Thank you for letting me talk your ear off, I just don't know who else to turn to. Any advice is deeply appreciated.
Sincere thanks.
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
One question.
Was Mom ever on state aid?
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
I'm not 100% sure but I do think so. I seem to remember her saying that once.
She believes that her child has a disability and enjoys taking the "child" to different doctors and getting the child put on different medications.
I know she has stated that she was going to try to get assistance for the medications and some sort of living facility. That was one conversation. The next conversation it was that she was going to try to see if she could get it so that the child could not make any decisions for their self. In my opinion she needs some counseling or something. She goes from one extreme to the next and it seems everyone around her suffers for it except her. Sad.
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
I'm afraid your husband might need to actually get to the CSE office in person and basically stay until someone will see him (without trespassing, naturally).
Having said that, why doesn't your husband have a copy of documentation saying his obligation was fulfilled?
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
He says he never received anything in the mail. The only time he ever saw it was when it was sent to the employer he had at the time. The former employer retired & sold his business but is still around. We asked him if he would have that paper somewhere in his paperwork and he said no because it was to be filled out and returned. He doesn't remember if he ever made a copy of it for his file and it's too late to check now because he only kept his files around for 7 years after closing his doors.
Wouldn't the county who sent the acknowledgement to begin with have that on file though?
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
I hate to ask this.
But are you absolutely sure he's remembering correctly? As a rule, CSE don't just open new cases like that. Something would have triggered it - and if Mom had tried to get child support after the age of majority, they simply would have turned her down.
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
When I asked him about it, he said that there was a time back in the mid 90's that he switched jobs. When he first got hired on, the employer did not take out child support and there was approximately 6 months that were missed. He remembered that when they did start taking the payments again that the normal amount was taken out plus an additional amount for the arrears.
However, when he spoke with a woman at the CSE, she stated that those months were never paid for and that is what the arrears is based off of. She claimed that interest was tacked on from the missing months and to-date. His monthly amount was $650 for the one child. To my calculations, he would owe $3,900, if it is true that the months were not recovered. I just can't justify the amount they are claiming he now owes, over $45,000!!! I don't understand it and I am at a loss as I haven't a clue what to do.
Also, the last job he did have (the one where the notice was sent), his wages were way lower than the wages he had when the child support was configured. He didn't know that he could have gone back to the courts and ask them to lower it based on his income so he just continued to pay the $650/mo.
I would agree with you that if she was simply trying to get money they would have turned her down but when she moved from one county to another, it became a different court so not sure if that has anything to do with it or not. The notice of fulfillment was sent from the former county and her current county is the that reopened the case. I don't get how someone can go for almost 4 years without hearing a word and then poof, sorry guy, you owe us $40K! How does that even happen?
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
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JSpence
When I asked him about it, he said that there was a time back in the mid 90's that he switched jobs. When he first got hired on, the employer did not take out child support and there was approximately 6 months that were missed. He remembered that when they did start taking the payments again that the normal amount was taken out plus an additional amount for the arrears.
However, when he spoke with a woman at the CSE, she stated that those months were never paid for and that is what the arrears is based off of. She claimed that interest was tacked on from the missing months and to-date. His monthly amount was $650 for the one child. To my calculations, he would owe $3,900, if it is true that the months were not recovered. I just can't justify the amount they are claiming he now owes, over $45,000!!! I don't understand it and I am at a loss as I haven't a clue what to do.
Also, the last job he did have (the one where the notice was sent), his wages were way lower than the wages he had when the child support was configured. He didn't know that he could have gone back to the courts and ask them to lower it based on his income so he just continued to pay the $650/mo.
I would agree with you that if she was simply trying to get money they would have turned her down but when she moved from one county to another, it became a different court so not sure if that has anything to do with it or not. The notice of fulfillment was sent from the former county and her current county is the that reopened the case. I don't get how someone can go for almost 4 years without hearing a word and then poof, sorry guy, you owe us $40K! How does that even happen?
Has your husband tried to set up an online account with your state's child support system? My husband pays child support in Ohio, and Ohio has a child support customer service website, which he was able to set up an account on. He can log in and see a record of his child support payments, any arrears, information about his most recent child support order, etc. If your husband can do that, maybe it would give him more info about the case than he's getting from the child support agency.
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
Hi, thank you for your reply. We've tried to look online to see if there is a way to set something up that way and nothing. I actually inquired myself about that since we live in another state. The woman I spoke with told me that they didn't have anything like that and said that if they did it was probably for persons who owed current support. His is just arrears. Maybe things have changed, I will look into that again. Thanks :)
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
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JSpence
Hi, thank you for your reply. We've tried to look online to see if there is a way to set something up that way and nothing. I actually inquired myself about that since we live in another state. The woman I spoke with told me that they didn't have anything like that and said that if they did it was probably for persons who owed current support. His is just arrears. Maybe things have changed, I will look into that again. Thanks :)
You're welcome! Have you taken a look at this?
https://jupiter.dss.state.va.us/family/
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
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Dogmatique
I hate to ask this.
But are you absolutely sure he's remembering correctly? As a rule, CSE don't just open new cases like that. Something would have triggered it - and if Mom had tried to get child support after the age of majority, they simply would have turned her down.
I have to respectfully disagree. I have gone through nightmares with dcse here in VA, got new and different numbers for "arrears" thrown at me every time I turned around (some higher, and some lower), finally went before the judge who threw it all out and said I was not in arrears at all (though I kept quite meticulous records and am grateful for that - including records of payments I made through them that they somehow forgot about.) Anyhow, the judge dismissed it all WITH prejudice, and they still tried to bring it back up, resulting in going back to the judge and having him tell them again to basically stop harassing me.
All it takes is for mom to say "he didn't pay." They have shabby record keeping at best, and if she went from one city to the next, I've no doubt that something could very well have been lost in translation. The burden for proof of payment is entirely on dad.
Has dad tried going to the office in the city where he originally paid through? You do actually have to go - sometimes even several times. Nobody ever called me back. Not once.
You may have to consider hiring an attorney, but do as much leg work as possible first.
Oh, and the case information through the website is very simple to look up. If he has a statement from them with a case number it takes about 60 seconds. He'll have to request a password be mailed to him for anything past the last year, though, but that's also quick and easy to request online and it *should* give a complete history.
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
No I hadn't seen that Blossom. Thank you, I will definitely look into that. :)
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FatherWhoWon
I have to respectfully disagree. I have gone through nightmares with dcse here in VA, got new and different numbers for "arrears" thrown at me every time I turned around (some higher, and some lower), finally went before the judge who threw it all out and said I was not in arrears at all (though I kept quite meticulous records and am grateful for that - including records of payments I made through them that they somehow forgot about.) Anyhow, the judge dismissed it all WITH prejudice, and they still tried to bring it back up, resulting in going back to the judge and having him tell them again to basically stop harassing me.
All it takes is for mom to say "he didn't pay." They have shabby record keeping at best, and if she went from one city to the next, I've no doubt that something could very well have been lost in translation. The burden for proof of payment is entirely on dad.
Has dad tried going to the office in the city where he originally paid through? You do actually have to go - sometimes even several times. Nobody ever called me back. Not once.
You may have to consider hiring an attorney, but do as much leg work as possible first.
Oh, and the case information through the website is very simple to look up. If he has a statement from them with a case number it takes about 60 seconds. He'll have to request a password be mailed to him for anything past the last year, though, but that's also quick and easy to request online and it *should* give a complete history.
Thank you very much! I'm just totally lost concerning all of this as I've never experienced something so confusing. I just simply think she was in a financial bind and thought "a-ha, he still owes me those few months from years ago, let's see where it goes". Now he's owing thousands of dollars and for what? We had tried going straight to the Fairfax County CSE to see what could be done and they told him that it was a matter with the county that she now lives in. You would think that it's all tied together? Although I wanted to keep it attorney-free, I do feel I have no choice. We no longer live in Virginia and I can't afford to to up there and hound them for something that they've done wrong. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels their record keeping is crappy. But to answer your question, yes he's tried going straight to the office back in 2010 when all this started. I'm hopeful something will give. He just got a letter yesterday stating that he has been unresponsive to them so now they will attempt to go through our current state.
He has tried numerous times to get this settled. Now they're going to say he hasn't been responsive? Wonder what they will do if I tape two cents to the inside of an envelope and send it to them? This is crazy! That letter is what sent me on a roll to try to find out what I can do for him.
I just wish I had some what of an inkling what to do but being you've dealt with VA, I will heed your advice.
Thank you very much!
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
Oh dear, adding another state to the mix is not going to help. I'm sorry, I don't have much encouragement for you. You really need to gather up all of the documentation you can. If you don't have it, I'm not sure how you're going to get out of this mess.
In the meantime, if you are sure the debt is not accurate, consider only having accounts and property in your name. If your new state is involved, they may come after anything in dad's name. Tax returns, checking accounts, liens on homes and vehicles...
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
Exactly. This is why we are not married. Until this mess is straightened out, I can't have anything in his name attached to mine.
He does have everything documented, like yourself. Even papers where he gave her money, he had her sign that she received x amount of dollars.
I just got off the phone with DCSE and while she couldn't really tell me anything because it isn't my case, she was able to clear up a lot of general questions. The letter that he received in the mail yesterday stated "Our records indicate that you have failed to communicate with our state agency. Due to your willful evasion, we shall pursue enforcement action through the state you reside. Also, your case is being reviewed to determine if federal prosecution is necessary." What does this mean? He has tried communicating several times. I am unsure of what is going to happen and how long it takes for anything to happen.
I do want him to clear the matter up, as does he. I did ask the woman if he can get a hardship license so that he can actually get a job and correct this issue and she stated I had to contact the courts in VA regarding a restricted license. Then she stated that just because the VA license was suspended for child support, it didn't mean he couldn't have a license here in Florida. I thought all of this stuff was tied together??? She stated "not necessarily".
Ugh this stinks. I'll keep you guys posted. I'm determined to fix this, although it isn't for me to fix, I assumed his baggage the day we started this journey.
Thank you all for all of your help, you've been wonderful! Enjoy your week!
Re: Fulfilled Obligation and Arrears
Dad really needs an attorney here. Sorting out a mess like this can be a nightmare.
Does he have complete records of all payments made, all court rulings on support orders, etc? I've kept everything going back almost 20 years - all paystubs, all letters from DCSS, letters from his kids' high school confirming graduation, the letters from the support agency here and in the state where mom lives stating they were dropping her case due to her third party collection efforts - everything.
His ex claimed he owed thousands in back support and even though we had proof month by month of payments, it still took almost a year and hiring an attorney to sort it out. They wouldn't listen to us, but they paid attention when an attorney was brought in - and it still took the attorney several months to fix it. Mom just arbitrarily marked missed months in her initial DCSS filing and had no clue that I kept meticulous records. I still have every single cancelled check when payments were sent to her directly.
Dad needs to file a motion with the court for determination of arrearages and subpoena his payment records and accounting from all agencies who collected support on mom's behalf throughout the years. He has an absolute right to this information. And he is going to need an attorney for all of this.
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EA1070a
Dad really needs an attorney here. Sorting out a mess like this can be a nightmare.
Does he have complete records of all payments made, all court rulings on support orders, etc? I've kept everything going back almost 20 years - all paystubs, all letters from DCSS, letters from his kids' high school confirming graduation, the letters from the support agency here and in the state where mom lives stating they were dropping her case due to her third party collection efforts - everything.
His ex claimed he owed thousands in back support and even though we had proof month by month of payments, it still took almost a year and hiring an attorney to sort it out. They wouldn't listen to us, but they paid attention when an attorney was brought in - and it still took the attorney several months to fix it. Mom just arbitrarily marked missed months in her initial DCSS filing and had no clue that I kept meticulous records. I still have every single cancelled check when payments were sent to her directly.
Dad needs to file a motion with the court for determination of arrearages and subpoena his payment records and accounting from all agencies who collected support on mom's behalf throughout the years. He has an absolute right to this information. And he is going to need an attorney for all of this.
Thank you for your response. Yes, he has kept every bit of information ever exchanged, sent to him, copies of things he has had to send, etc.
I was afraid of going the attorney route as I really can't afford one but I'm sure someone out there may be willing to work with me, at least I hope.
Thank you for your support!
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I was just going through some of his papers and came across their divorce decree. It states "neither spouse is required to pay spousal or child support to the other, and therefore, Section 20-60.3 is not applicable". I would imagine that is why he has a mountain of papers that have her signature, indicating that he gave her $. Wonder if he can use this to his advantage?
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Not likely - CS cannot be completely waived like that. Either parent can initiate proceedings to get a CS order put in place.