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Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718(A)

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  • 09-03-2013, 12:51 PM
    dgc2656
    Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718(A)
    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California, Kern County

    I was starting to nod off and got off of the freeway crossed a highway and parked in a clear area to the right side of the entrance ramp of the Northbound I-5. I was parked on the gravel to the right of the delineator posts. I started to take a nap. About 15 minutes later the CHP showed up and issued a ticket telling me an entrance ramp is considered the freeway and I should take a nap elsewhere. I am a commercial driver and this ticket has a 1.5 point hit, I want to fight it and I plan on using exception 1 and 392.3 of the federal motor carrier safety administration manual. If I had fallen asleep at the wheel persons or property would have been injured or damaged. I plan on getting the officers notes through discovery. What are my chances of beating this, and is there anything else I can do in order to beat it.

    P.S. This is the exact wording on the ticket, 21718(a) V.I. non emergency stop.

    My point here is that VC section 21718(a) is specific and has to do with stop park, or leave standing upon a freeway. It has not one word about emergency. The word emergency only shows up in the exceptions.
  • 09-03-2013, 01:28 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    you would do better if you provided verbiage from and/or specific document referred to so somebody else knew exactly what you were referring to but:


    the document you reference does not rule over the state law.


    Quote:

    If I had fallen asleep at the wheel persons or property would have been injured or damaged.
    if you felt the need to stop where you did, you obviously already were in such condition that life and property was at threat due to your condition. That is kind of like a drunk arguing;yes, I was driving drunk but I parked my car (where it cannot be legally parked) before I hit anybody and arguing their condition provided them an exception to the law.
  • 09-03-2013, 01:47 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    There is provision in vc22505 for vehicles disabled. You argument it was disabled by lack of a legally functional driver under DOT reg's might be successful if you can establish there were no other places to stop and park within a reasonable distance. Generally, such tickets are unsuccessful. I would attempt via TBD.

    http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22505.htm
  • 09-03-2013, 03:11 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    I think that would go along with FMCA 392.3

    392.3Ill or fatigued operator.
    No driver shall operate a commercial motor vehicle, and a motor carrier shall not require or permit a driver to operate a commercial motor vehicle, while the driver's ability or alertness is so impaired, or so likely to become impaired, through fatigue, illness, or any other cause, as to make it unsafe for him/her to begin or continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle. However, in a case of grave emergency where the hazard to occupants of the commercial motor vehicle or other users of the highway would be increased by compliance with this section, the driver may continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle to the nearest place at which that hazard is removed.
  • 09-03-2013, 03:34 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    392.3Ill or fatigued operator.
    No driver shall operate a commercial motor vehicle, and a motor carrier shall not require or permit a driver to operate a commercial motor vehicle, while the driver's ability or alertness is so impaired,
    and you instantly became fatigued upon entering the off ramp?



    and check this out:


    Quote:

    However, in a case of grave emergency where the hazard to occupants of the commercial motor vehicle or other users of the highway would be increased by compliance with this section, the driver may continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle to the nearest place at which that hazard is removed.
    so obviously even the writers are not so staid it is considered an unwavering rule.



    seriously, this is not a defense to a ticket. In fact, if I was your employer, it would be a reason to fire you since you obviously allowed yourself to get too far gone before you felt you had no option but to stop. That means you likely drive in a condition where you should not be. Time for the employer to cut his liabilities and clean house.

    - - - Updated - - -

    but let's play the game. You want to argue an emergency situation should allow the action.



    § 392.22
    Quote:

    Emergency signals; stopped commercial motor vehicles.(a) Hazard warning signal flashers. Whenever a commercial motor vehicle is stopped upon the traveled portion of a highway or the shoulder of a highway for any cause other than necessary traffic stops, the driver of the stopped commercial motor vehicle shall immediately activate the vehicular hazard warning signal flashers and continue the flashing until the driver places the warning devices required by paragraph (b) of this section. The flashing signals shall be used during the time the warning devices are picked up for storage before movement of the commercial motor vehicle. The flashing lights may be used at other times while a commercial motor vehicle is stopped in addition to, but not in lieu of, the warning devices required by paragraph (b) of this section.(b) Placement of warning devices—(1) General rule. Except as provided in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, whenever a commercial motor vehicle is stopped upon the traveled portion or the shoulder of a highway for any cause other than necessary traffic stops, the driver shall, as soon as possible, but in any event within 10 minutes, place the warning devices required by §393.95 of this subchapter, in the following manner:
    were your hazard flashers on?


    what about this one:
    Quote:

    (iv) Hills, curves, and obstructions. If a commercial motor vehicle is stopped within 500 feet of a curve, crest of a hill, or other obstruction to view, the driver shall place the warning signal required by paragraph (b)(1) of this section in the direction of the obstruction to view a distance of 100 feet to 500 feet from the stopped commercial motor vehicle so as to afford ample warning to other users of the highway.
    Quote:

    (b) Placement of warning devices—(1) General rule. Except as provided in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, whenever a commercial motor vehicle is stopped upon the traveled portion or the shoulder of a highway for any cause other than necessary traffic stops, the driver shall, as soon as possible, but in any event within 10 minutes, place the warning devices required by §393.95 of this subchapter, in the following manner:(i) One on the traffic side of and 4 paces (approximately 3 meters or 10 feet) from the stopped commercial motor vehicle in the direction of approaching traffic;
    did you have out emergency warning signs?

    If you want to argue you are so steadfastly adhere to the federal rules, I would have to guess that yes, you did have your flashers on and appropriate warning signs and such, right? If not, sure makes it difficult to stand there arguing the federal rules made you do it.
  • 09-03-2013, 04:04 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Nice trolling JK, but you are playing selective quoting.

    or so likely to become impaired, through fatigue, illness, or any other cause, as to make it unsafe for him/her to begin or continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle.

    The point here is that if I had continued to drive would I have fallen asleep at the wheel. Yes it is a maybe situation, but when you take into consideration the fact that 1550 people a year are killed by sleeping drivers it becomes profane to give a driver a ticket for taking public safety first and pulling over to take a rest.

    Additionally I am seeking help in defending my case and any constructive advice is appreciated, you have yet to make one constructive suggestion. Therefore I must conclude either you are yet another 14 year old expert on everything, a law enforcement officer, or a troll. Have a good life.
  • 09-03-2013, 04:15 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    dgc2656;740076]Nice trolling JK, but you are playing selective quoting.
    you want the entire section? It comes out as a full page so I did not feel the need to quote irrelevant info.




    Quote:

    The point here is that if I had continued to drive would I have fallen asleep at the wheel. Yes it is a maybe situation, but when you take into consideration the fact that 1550 people a year are killed by sleeping drivers it becomes profane to give a driver a ticket for taking public safety first and pulling over to take a rest.
    so you instantaneously became so fatigued you just had to stop right there. Fine, you go with that argument in the court.


    and since you are claiming it was an emergency exemption to the law, you had to have used your flashers and due to the proximity of a curve or intersection, you were required to display warning signs. Did you? If not, your argument it was an emergency exemption is defeated since you did not act as you are required to per the FMCSA in an emergency stopping situation.

    Quote:

    Additionally I am seeking help in defending my case and any constructive advice is appreciated,
    so you want to find a way to avoid being held accountable for a valid ticket. Great.


    Quote:

    Have a good life.
    I do thank you.



    I just love it when a poster claims troll when the deficiencies in their "story" are pointed out.
  • 09-03-2013, 04:29 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    He is giving you constructive help. You are choosing to ignore counter arguments. You never answered my question about nearby truck parking.
  • 09-03-2013, 04:31 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Quoting Disagreeable
    View Post
    He is giving you constructive help. You are choosing to ignore counter arguments. You never answered my question about nearby truck parking.

    nor whether he used flashers or other emergency notifications which are required when claiming you are stopping for an emergency purpose.
  • 09-03-2013, 04:58 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Quoting Disagreeable
    View Post
    There is provision in vc22505 for vehicles disabled. You argument it was disabled by lack of a legally functional driver under DOT reg's might be successful if you can establish there were no other places to stop and park within a reasonable distance. Generally, such tickets are unsuccessful. I would attempt via TBD.

    http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22505.htm

    I am not sure anyone would buy that argument simply because (1) you're suggesting a direct conflict between two laws, and (2) a "disabled vehicle" even by your broad definition of one is covered under the same code section OP was cited for... Except in the case where 21718(a)(4) comes in:

    (4) When any vehicle is so disabled that it is impossible to avoid temporarily stopping and another vehicle has been summoned to render assistance to the disabled vehicle or driver of the disabled vehicle. This paragraph applies when the vehicle summoned to render assistance is a vehicle owned by the donor of free emergency assistance that has been summoned by display upon or within a disabled vehicle of a placard or sign given to the driver of the disabled vehicle by the donor for the specific purpose of summoning assistance, other than towing service, from the donor.


    ... the exception to the rule of no stopping/standing... etc, is that there be another vehicle which has been summoned to render assistance and in this case, there was none.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    I think that would go along with FMCA 392.3

    392.3Ill or fatigued operator.
    No driver shall operate a commercial motor vehicle, and a motor carrier shall not require or permit a driver to operate a commercial motor vehicle, while the driver's ability or alertness is so impaired, or so likely to become impaired, through fatigue, illness, or any other cause, as to make it unsafe for him/her to begin or continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle. However, in a case of grave emergency where the hazard to occupants of the commercial motor vehicle or other users of the highway would be increased by compliance with this section, the driver may continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle to the nearest place at which that hazard is removed.

    I read that to mean two things...

    (1) It prohibits a commercial driver from starting to drive a commercial vehicle while his ability or alertness is so impaired, or so likely to become impaired, through fatigue, illness.... etc. It does not mean you should continue to drive until such a point where you can no longer function enough to continue another half a mile or however long that ramp was to find another more appropriate location where you can legally park.

    (2) While you would like to interpret it to mean that it affords you the ability to stop for reasons of promoting safety to person and property, it clearly requires you to continue driving until such a point where the location you are choosing to stop is not likely to increase any hazardous situation if you were to otherwise stop. Now, can you guess as to what the legislative intent behind enacting CVC 21718 was when they did enact it? In other words, why are we prohibited from parking on the side of a freeway and/or an off ramp unless it is an emergency stop? Because it is unsafe for us and for other drivers who may need to make an emergency stop for us to be in the way.

    That said, you are not likely to be able to get out of this one on your own unfortunately. And it is my opinion that with you being a CDL driver, and assuming your livelihood depends on how many points you have on your record, you cannot afford to play around with it or take any risks. You need to contact local attorneys in the area where this court appearance will happen to see if any of them is willing and able to offer you some sort of assurance that he will make a serious effort to negotiate a reduction of this violation to something with no points. Plea bargains do not happen in California traffic matters. However, and with commercial drivers, and in particular with the CHP, in is my understanding that thew majority will at least consider the idea if/when approached by an attorney. Yes this will likely cost you a chunk... But its either a chunk or the consequences of violation points.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    The point here is that if I had continued to drive would I have fallen asleep at the wheel. Yes it is a maybe situation, but when you take into consideration the fact that 1550 people a year are killed by sleeping drivers it becomes profane to give a driver a ticket for taking public safety first and pulling over to take a rest.

    An even better point is that any reasonable driver, especially one who's capable of reciting that statistic on a whim is not likely to let himself wait until the absolute last wink that he can maintain.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    Additionally I am seeking help in defending my case and any constructive advice is appreciated, you have yet to make one constructive suggestion.

    We do not dictate nor control the circumstances you got cited under. And if there is no reasonable defense then you really should realize that we had nothing to do with that either.
  • 09-03-2013, 05:09 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    I was in an area I have not been in. Yes I could have of stopped earlier, although at that time I did not feel the need to pull over. I pulled over when I was tired and needed a rest. My lights were on, but my flashers were not on. I as many people do or did not know that an entrance ramp is considered the freeway. You can travel the I-5 north and south and count hundreds of trucks using these ramps in order to rest, yes without their flashers on. So in my case I suppose assuming it was legal was a poor assumption.

    P.S. so what if I want to get out of a valid ticket, I haven't had a single point on my license in over 20 years and if I can get out of a ticket on any kind of technicality I'll go for it. Call me a sinner if you like. If I could figure out how traffic lawyers can delay a case until the court makes a plea deal then I would do that.
  • 09-03-2013, 05:22 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    I pulled over when I was tired and needed a rest.
    so, that means when driving down the road, you decide you are tired and just pull over and take a nap, regardless of where you are?

    I presume not so it comes back to: what do you think gave you the right to do what you did? If you would not pull to the side of any road you are on to nap, why would you do it then?


    Quote:

    My lights were on, but my flashers were not on.
    well, hard to claim an emergency was underway if you do not use the legally mandated equipment that is specified in the law as being required when you are stopped for emergency reasons.

    Quote:

    I as many people do or did not know that an entrance ramp is considered the freeway. You can travel the I-5 north and south and count hundreds of trucks using these ramps in order to rest, yes without their flashers on. So in my case I suppose assuming it was legal was a poor assumption.
    There are a lot of crimes not charged. Doesn't mean it is legal to do what is being done.



    Quote:

    P.S. so what if I want to get out of a valid ticket, I haven't had a single point on my license in over 20 years and if I can get out of a ticket on any kind of technicality I'll go for it. Call me a sinner if you like.
    but that justifies calling me a troll when I point out the flaws in your argument?

    Quote:

    If I could figure out how traffic lawyers can delay a case until the court makes a plea deal then I would do that.
    well, if you knew that you probably wouldn't be in this situation as you would likely be enjoying those $200+ per hour fees that you get paid to answer questions like you are asking.
  • 09-03-2013, 05:35 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Actually I did some research and found out how many people were killed per year.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote:

    well, if you knew that you probably wouldn't be in this situation as you would likely be enjoying those $200+ per hour fees that you get paid to answer questions like you are asking.
    Actually traffic lawyers are not that expensive, but I like the idea of keeping as much of my money as possible. So first I want to see if I can fight the ticket on my own, if not I'll spend the money to keep the points and conviction off of my record.
  • 09-03-2013, 06:55 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    You still have not answered my question about the availability of truck parking nearby. I can foresee a situation where you could possible be granted a break, under the exception I noted in a TBD if you can honestly substantiate the absence of available parking. With the recent changes in Hours Of Service, many places have inadequate parking for semi trucks at certain hours of the night. You might be granted consideration under those points if you can establish them. Note that is not a matter of law, it is a matter of consideration.
  • 09-03-2013, 07:43 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Not at that exact off ramp. The CHP argued that I could have of exited earlier and found a place to park, my reply was that I was not tired at that time/I didn't need to take a nap yet. Also I'm talking about a twenty minute nap, not the 10 hours off that drivers need.
  • 09-03-2013, 07:51 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    So how far past the stop were you? How far was the next one? What time was it?
  • 09-03-2013, 08:00 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    Not at that exact off ramp. The CHP argued that I could have of exited earlier and found a place to park, my reply was that I was not tired at that time/I didn't need to take a nap yet. Also I'm talking about a twenty minute nap, not the 10 hours off that drivers need.

    20 minutes or 10 hours makes no difference due to where you were parked.


    and if you were that far gone, 20 minutes was not going to get you back to where you were safe to drive.


    Quote:

    The CHP argued that I could have of exited earlier and found a place to park, my reply was that I was not tired at that time/
    yes you were, You are simply refusing to acknowledge it for whatever reason.
  • 09-03-2013, 08:07 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    So how far past the stop were you? How far was the next one? What time was it?
    5 miles, the next off ramp was another 3 miles, the distance to a place where I could park a truck not on an off or on ramp could have of been tens of miles, perhaps 30 miles. The time I stopped was 2:20am the CHP wrote the ticket at 2:40am.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote:

    yes you were, You are simply refusing to acknowledge it for whatever reason.
    JK, please loan me your crystal ball, the power ball is up to $169 million and I want to win it.
  • 09-03-2013, 08:33 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    5 miles, the next off ramp was another 3 miles, the distance to a place where I could park a truck not on an off or on ramp could have of been tens of miles, perhaps 30 miles. The time I stopped was 2:20am the CHP wrote the ticket at 2:40am.

    - - - Updated - - -



    JK, please loan me your crystal ball, the power ball is up to $169 million and I want to win it.

    so, you are claiming that just 5 miles prior (and since the speed limit is around 60, let's figure 5 minutes), you went from:

    I fine. Don't need no sleep,

    to;

    damn, I am so tired I cannot drive far enough to even get off the highway

    sure, you did.




    I don't think a crystal ball would have helped you one bit.
  • 09-03-2013, 08:37 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Based on your story, I would not expect leniency in the statute.
  • 09-08-2013, 06:14 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    JK, your arguments are quite weak. It really does not matter if I had my flashers on or off or if I put out triangles. I pulled off of the freeway and parked in the gravel off of the actual road. I was tired before the off ramp that I used for a nap, but I did not take the opportunity to take a nap then. So if a person is in an unfamiliar area, are they then forced to stay on the freeway until another opportunity presents itself or is it justifiable that they exit the freeway and revive themselves with a nap.

    Just to let you know a 20-30 minute nap is very effective in bringing a person back to a from a sleepy state to a fairly healthy state. The thing I want to avoid is hitting a point of falling into a condition of microsleep.
  • 09-08-2013, 06:47 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    dgc2656;741711]JK, your arguments are quite weak. It really does not matter if I had my flashers on or off or if I put out triangles. I pulled off of the freeway and parked in the gravel off of the actual road
    They are not arguments. They are proof that you did not consider your stop to be for emergency reasons or you would have had your flashers on and put out the appropriate warning signs. Since you didn't, you do not get to argue it was an emergency stop.

    or do you want to say you violated the law requiring you to use your flashers and display signs?

    One way or the other, you violated a law.

    Quote:

    I was tired before the off ramp that I used for a nap, but I did not take the opportunity to take a nap then. So if a person is in an unfamiliar area, are they then forced to stay on the freeway until another opportunity presents itself or is it justifiable that they exit the freeway and revive themselves with a nap.
    talk about weak arguments.

    Quote:

    Just to let you know a 20-30 minute nap is very effective in bringing a person back to a from a sleepy state to a fairly healthy state. The thing I want to avoid is hitting a point of falling into a condition of microsleep.
    trust me, I know all about "power naps" but you really need to study them a bit more. You went beyond where it would be of much benefit. For them to be most effective they are used in a regularly scheduled fashion. If you were at the point of microsleep, your short nap did very little to allow for enough rest to drive very far at all. In fact, if you were even close to a concern of microsleep, you needed to stop long before you did.
  • 09-09-2013, 12:24 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    They are proof that you did not consider your stop to be for emergency reasons or you would have had your flashers on and put out the appropriate warning signs. Since you didn't, you do not get to argue it was an emergency stop.
    That is not proof of anything, it only establishes that I did not follow guidelines. Additionally my argument is that I pulled over to take a nap so that I would not, key word would not fall into a condition of microsleep.

    I have had one episode of microsleep and that was on my way home from work a few months ago, my eyes were open and I fell asleep for what I guessed was a second or so. I take this stuff seriously, the argument I will present is involved with exception #1. The law says not one word about well if you could have of pulled over sooner you can not use this exception. Also 21718 does not say anything about emergency stopping. The officer made a mistake when he wrote the ticket for non-emergency stop. There were not any emergency stopping only signs.

    Quote:

    trust me, I know all about "power naps" but you really need to study them a bit more.
    , where did you get your degree in Neurology?
  • 09-09-2013, 01:40 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    741951]That is not proof of anything, it only establishes that I did not follow guidelines.
    not guidelines but statutory requirements. (as in a ticketable offense if you fail to comply)

    Quote:

    Additionally my argument is that I pulled over to take a nap so that I would not, key word would not fall into a condition of microsleep.
    Well, I sure hope the cop noted that you were so fatigued it was obvious it was unsafe for you to continue.

    Did you continue to stay there and sleep or did you move your truck? Ya see, if you really want to claim it was an emergency and moving the truck was simply so unsafe of an action that you could not, by federal rule, move the truck, you just shot your defense in the foot. I don't care where you are, if you claim an emergency and state it is unsafe to move the vehicle, it is a defense to such a ticket. The problem with now moving the vehicle proves the claim is simple BS.

    Quote:

    I have had one episode of microsleep and that was on my way home from work a few months ago, my eyes were open and I fell asleep for what I guessed was a second or so. I take this stuff seriously, the argument I will present is involved with exception #1. The law says not one word about well if you could have of pulled over sooner you can not use this exception. Also 21718 does not say anything about emergency stopping. The officer made a mistake when he wrote the ticket for non-emergency stop. There were not any emergency stopping only signs.
    you go right ahead since there is no exception to the state law that would allow that AND if it was an emergency stop, you are required by law to engage your emergency flashers AND display reflective signs as described by both federal and state law. So, your failure to act as required in an emergency situation proves that you either regularly break the law or you did not believe it was an emergency situation. Which ticket do you want because they can still ticket you for failure to display proper emergency warning lights and signs?

    Quote:

    , where did you get your degree in Neurology?
    I do not discuss my educational accomplishments here. Anonymity is a wonderful thing.

    and of course we have this statement by you:

    Quote:

    You can travel the I-5 north and south and count hundreds of trucks using these ramps in order to rest, yes without their flashers on. So in my case I suppose assuming it was legal was a poor assumption.
    So, in other words, you admit what you did was wrong and a violation of the laws, both federal and state and you are simply trying to make up a story that allows you to skate on the ticket. You stopped because you thought it was legal to do so, not due to some medical emergency.
  • 09-09-2013, 01:46 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    That is not proof of anything, it only establishes that I did not follow guidelines.

    Guidelines for what? An "emergency"? Are you saying that under the circumstances, it would have been proper for you to employ emergency procedures (i.e. flashers and cones and triangles because this was an "emergency"?

    And yet at the end of your post you describe this as a non emergency stop and that the officer was wrong for writing it for a non-emergency stop!

    So which is it? Emergency or non emergency?

    Think of it this way, the likely reason why you did not utilize emergency procedures if this were an emergency, is simply because you were too tired and could not utilize emergency procedures. So the argument that you are using in hopes it will save you, is the same argument that will end up convicting you!

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    Additionally my argument is that I pulled over to take a nap so that I would not, key word would not fall into a condition of microsleep.

    So it was an emergency? And yet you had done nothing to indicate to the rest of the world that it was an emergency! Additionally, "microsleep" is not described under any of the exceptions listed in the code. Imagine if everyone who felt a little sleepy could pull over to the side of a freeway or off ramp to take a nap!

    CVC 21718

    (a) No person shall stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle upon a freeway which has full control of access and no crossings at grade except:

    (1) When necessary to avoid injury or damage to persons or property.

    (2) When required by law or in obedience to a peace officer or official traffic control device.

    (3) When any person is actually engaged in maintenance or construction on freeway property or any employee of a public agency is actually engaged in the performance of official duties.

    (4) When any vehicle is so disabled that it is impossible to avoid temporarily stopping and another vehicle has been summoned to render assistance to the disabled vehicle or driver of the disabled vehicle. This paragraph applies when the vehicle summoned to render assistance is a vehicle owned by the donor of free emergency assistance that has been summoned by display upon or within a disabled vehicle of a placard or sign given to the driver of the disabled vehicle by the donor for the specific purpose of summoning assistance, other than towing service, from the donor.

    (5) Where stopping, standing, or parking is specifically permitted. However, buses may not stop on freeways unless sidewalks are provided with shoulders of sufficient width to permit stopping without interfering with the normal movement of traffic and without the possibility of crossing over fast lanes to reach the bus stop.

    (6) Where necessary for any person to report a traffic accident or other situation or incident to a peace officer or any person specified in paragraph (3), either directly or by means of an emergency telephone or similar device.

    (7) When necessary for the purpose of rapid removal of impediments to traffic by the owner or operator of a tow truck operating under an agreement with the Department of the California Highway Patrol.

    (b) A conviction of a violation of this section is a conviction involving the safe operation of a motor vehicle upon the highway if a notice to appear for the violation was issued by a peace officer described in Section 830.1 or 830.2 of the Penal Code
    .

    (Added by Stats. 1997, Ch. 945, Sec. 17. Effective January 1, 1998.)


    The exceptions listed under subparagraphs 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7 do not apply here. Exception # 4 does not apply simply because it the vehicle or the driver were "so disabled" that either the driver could not drive any further or the vehicle was incapable of being driven much further, AND the same subparagraph requires that another vehicle has been summoned to render assistance to the disabled vehicle or driver of the disabled vehicle. THIS is the subparagraph that would apply if you were ill and unable to continue, or if in case it was reasonable to assume that "microsleeping" would qualify under the circumstances but even if it did, you did not request any assistance or summon another vehicle to your aid. And so you're S.O.L. on this one as well. That leaves your exception #1. And that, for a CDL driver to attempt to utilize his lack of ability to manage his driving and to use common sense to not only try and avoid injury or damage to himself, his property or to another person or property, as a means to an attempt to break the law and get away with it, is the ultimate in irresponsibility.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    I have had one episode of microsleep and that was on my way home from work a few months ago, my eyes were open and I fell asleep for what I guessed was a second or so.

    The more reason why you should be capable of gauging your own abilities to handle long hours or late hours or both.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    I take this stuff seriously

    Not seriously enough to manage your driving better, apparently... No matter how you slice it, your actions were not reasonable. To pretend you had to push yourself to the last moment where you could not drive another yard without "microsleeping" and yet your claim is that you did this to avoid the unavoidable likelihood that you would end up "microsleeping".

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    the argument I will present is involved with exception #1.

    And you will lose.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    The law says not one word about well if you could have of pulled over sooner you can not use this exception.

    There is no obligation for the state to enact laws that force you to manage your time and abilities better.That is a duty that is imposed upon you when you were afforded the privilege to drive. To use common sense, and drive in a reasonable and prudent manner.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    Also 21718 does not say anything about emergency stopping.

    Actually, it does, and I explained it above.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    The officer made a mistake when he wrote the ticket for non-emergency stop.

    The California Highway Patrol has been issuing this citation for years... And for the same reasons that you fell under. They're not likely to change now that you have come along!

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    There were not any emergency stopping only signs.

    A valid legal presumption is that signs were posted to sufficiently inform all reasonably attentive drivers of all mandated and prohibited actions. If there were no signs posted nowhere on the route you took and within a reasonable distance of where you illegally parked, then the burden is upon you to prove so.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    where did you get your degree in Neurology?

    And layoff the snarky comments. You're not making any headway with them and you certainly aren't looking any better without them.

    jk has done nothing wrong by simply trying to get through to you that your arguments are not reasonable and do not make for a valid defense to the charge. And what you need to do is take a step back and reread what he's posting. Often times, I might disagree with him only to later find out that there is some basis to his points.

    This is presumably your livelihood that is riding on this. And with the way you've presented yourself, you've also put your ego on their success or failure. Making emotionally driven arguments arguments rather than ones that are based on a sensible interpretation of the law and common sense will not win you the case. Just understand that we have no dog in this fight. And if it was in your best interest to tell you to fight it, why would we choose to say otherwise!
  • 09-09-2013, 01:52 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    TG, I take one exception to your response. Not everyone on the road is running around with a 25 ton, 53 or 60 foot dingle berry behind them.
  • 09-09-2013, 03:19 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Quoting Disagreeable
    View Post
    TG, I take one exception to your response. Not everyone on the road is running around with a 25 ton, 53 or 60 foot dingle berry behind them.

    Notwithstanding the 'dingle berry" description, I could not argue with the obvious. And I am sorry but which part of my response is it that you are taking exception to? And why?
  • 09-09-2013, 04:29 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    @that guy

    Quote:

    A valid legal presumption is that signs were posted to sufficiently inform all reasonably attentive drivers of all mandated and prohibited actions. If there were no signs posted nowhere on the route you took and within a reasonable distance of where you illegally parked, then the burden is upon you to prove so.
    Lucky for me I have google images of the freeway, exit and entrance ramps and the only signage is "Pedestrians Prohibited".

    Quote:

    The California Highway Patrol has been issuing this citation for years... And for the same reasons that you fell under. They're not likely to change now that you have come along!
    This law along with many other traffic laws is just used for revenue generating and has nothing to do with safety or the safety aspect has been lost many years ago. 21718 (a) became law in 1998. This along with the comment are off topic, but the law states No person shall stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle upon a freeway which has full control of access and no crossings at grade. It does not state non-emergency stopping. non emergency stopping is only listed under a refusal to obey a signage law, which in this area there was no sign.
  • 09-09-2013, 04:42 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    This law along with many other traffic laws is just used for revenue generating and has nothing to do with safety or the safety aspect has been lost many years ago. 21718 (a) became law in 1998. This along with the comment are off topic, but the law states No person shall stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle upon a freeway which has full control of access and no crossings at grade. It does not state non-emergency stopping. non emergency stopping is only listed under a refusal to obey a signage law, which in this area there was no sign.

    Yep, here we go. Tickets are for no reason other than to generate revenue. Sure they are.

    Want to know what happens when there are no tickets? The municipality downsizes the courts because there is not enough need for a large system and the lack of tickets cannot support a large system.

    The funny thing is; regardless of whether it is to generate revenue or not; violating the law is still violating the law. To avoid being ticketed, you just do not violate the law. I have not had a ticket for decades. Want to know how I accomplish that in this era of; tickets are simply to generate revenue era? I comply with the traffic laws. Easy peasy.


    Quote:

    This along with the comment are off topic, but the law states No person shall stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle upon a freeway which has full control of access and no crossings at grade. It does not state non-emergency stopping. non emergency stopping is only listed under a refusal to obey a signage law, which in this area there was no sign.
    so that makes the lack of a sign irrelevant so your joy expressed in:


    Quote:

    Lucky for me I have google images of the freeway, exit and entrance ramps and the only signage is "Pedestrians Prohibited".
    is meaningless for the issue at hand.
  • 09-09-2013, 05:06 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    JK you have to be retired or something like that, I am on my weekend and here you are adding to your 22,212 posts.

    I have been in the same situation as you, as far as tickets go. I have had 1 ticket for no seat belt and no other tickets until this one for well over 20 years. Until I received this ticket I had zero points on my record, I consider this ticket to be a B.S. ticket and that along with the money it is going to cost me is why I am going to fight it.

    It's going on three weeks and so far no Courtesy Notice, this case may not even see the light of day. I'll land up doing what I did the last time a police officer messed up with paperwork. Call the court, explain that I want to pay the ticket, but have not received the notice, give them my name DL number and address and when they ask for the citation number tell them I misplaced it. After I receive the usual B.S. from the clerk they will issue a letter clearing me. This only holds true if I am not in their system. If I am then I'll have to first do a TBD, then get my second trial in court.
  • 09-09-2013, 05:43 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    dgc2656;742052]JK you have to be retired or something like that, I am on my weekend and here you are adding to your 22,212 posts.
    Nope, just dedicated and have perfected the use of power naps:rolleyes:


    Quote:

    I have been in the same situation as you, as far as tickets go. I have had 1 ticket for no seat belt and no other tickets until this one for well over 20 years. Until I received this ticket I had zero points on my record, I consider this ticket to be a B.S. ticket and that along with the money it is going to cost me is why I am going to fight it.
    that fact is, it is not a BS ticket. There is nothing even minimally improper about the ticket. The law is quite clear. Your actions were intentional and clear.

    Quote:

    It's going on three weeks and so far no Courtesy Notice, this case may not even see the light of day. I'll land up doing what I did the last time a police officer messed up with paperwork. Call the court, explain that I want to pay the ticket, but have not received the notice, give them my name DL number and address and when they ask for the citation number tell them I misplaced it. After I receive the usual B.S. from the clerk they will issue a letter clearing me. This only holds true if I am not in their system. If I am then I'll have to first do a TBD, then get my second trial in court.
    If you get that lucky, you might want to consider purchasing some lottery tickets.
  • 09-09-2013, 07:24 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Nope, just dedicated and have perfected the use of power naps
    Dedicated to exactly what?

    Quote:

    There is nothing even minimally improper about the ticket. The law is quite clear. Your actions were intentional and clear.
    I differ here and on this point. It will not be me, but some person will get the same ticket for doing the same thing. He or she will become too tired to drive, and out of fear of another ticket and added points to their license they will push themselves further then they would normally. The result will be they will go to jail, the CHP, the county, and the state will find themselves in a major lawsuit.
  • 09-09-2013, 07:39 PM
    jk
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    dgc2656;742107]Dedicated to exactly what?
    being true to myself



    Quote:

    I differ here and on this point. It will not be me, but some person will get the same ticket for doing the same thing. He or she will become too tired to drive, and out of fear of another ticket and added points to their license they will push themselves further then they would normally. The result will be they will go to jail, the CHP, the county, and the state will find themselves in a major lawsuit.
    sorry but arguing I had to do it because I just couldn't go on shows they failed to stop when they should have stopped and pushed themselves to the point they simply felt they just could not go on any further. That makes them negligent for not stopping before they ever got that fatigued.

    In other words; they stop before they get that tired. Anything else is negligent on their part
  • 09-09-2013, 08:15 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    Lucky for me I have google images of the freeway, exit and entrance ramps and the only signage is "Pedestrians Prohibited".

    You know I cringe every time I sit here and I read comments like ^this^ that not only show how stubborn some people are, but how they will insist, argue and fight only to run to court to fight a battle that they cannot win and one that will bring them nothing but headaches and problems.

    For one, Google map images are going to be very difficult to authenticate simply because they are often 2, possibly 3 years old and are not representative of the existing circumstances that were present at the time you got cited.

    Two, just because you present pictures that ONLY show "PEDESTRIANS PROHIBITED" does not mean other signs do not exist.

    Three, the fact that you are showing pictures that can only be seen as you are ENTERING the freeway (and doing so from the wrong direction) to prevent pedestrians from doing so, is a backwards approach to those signs you may have seen as you were EXITING the freeway. (But this is not the only backwards idea you've presented here).

    Four(a), and this is a long but ever important one, so pay attention: There are codes out there that are only enforceable if and only if a sign is posted to notify the drivers of a prohibition or a mandate under the law. And for those codes, they usually include a statement that says so, for example (the underlined sentence requiring a sign):

    22358 (a) Whenever a local authority determines upon the basis of an engineering and traffic survey that the limit of 65 miles per hour is more than is reasonable or safe upon any portion of any street other than a state highway where the limit of 65 miles per hour is applicable, the local authority may by ordinance determine and declare a prima facie speed limit of 60, 55, 50, 45, 40, 35, 30, or 25 miles per hour, whichever is found most appropriate to facilitate the orderly movement of traffic and is reasonable and safe, which declared prima facie limit shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected upon the street.
    (b) This section shall become operative on the date specified in subdivision (c) of Section 22366.


    And so if that reduced speed limit isn't posted, it defaults to 65 mph and any citation issued under those circumstances can and should be dismissed.

    Four (b) In this case, a "legal presumption" means that the judge can assume that a certain fact is true without the proponent of such presumption (the party which benefits from it: i.e. the prosecution) having to provide any proof of its existence... The presumption in this case simply implies the court can assume that the California Department of Transportation Took Care of its mandatory duty assigned to it by law to inform drivers or regulatory issues that they are bound by and that it did so by posting signs informing them of the fact that parking on the freeway or exit/entrance ramps is prohibited and is for emergency parking only.

    21350 The Department of Transportation [B]shall[/B] place and maintain, or cause to be placed and maintained, with respect to highways under its jurisdiction, appropriate signs, signals, and other traffic control devices as required hereunder, and may place and maintain, or cause to be placed and maintained, such appropriate signs, signals, or other traffic control devices as may be authorized hereunder, or as may be necessary properly to indicate and to carry out the provisions of this code, or to warn or guide traffic upon the highways. The Department of Transportation may, with the consent of the local authorities, also place and maintain, or cause to be placed and maintained, in or along city streets and county roads, appropriate signs, signals, and other traffic control devices, or may perform, or cause to be performed, such other work on city streets and county roads, as may be necessary or desirable to control, or direct traffic, or to facilitate traffic flow, to or from or on state highways.


    Four (c) The court can then assume that at some point in time as you drove on that freeway and before you stopped to take your nap, you passed a sign that stated "EMERGENCY PARKING ONLY", and in spite of your denial, but since we have already established that yours was not a situation than qualifies as an emergency, therefore you parking where you did was in violation of the code.

    Four (d) There are other rules of the road, though, that are statutory in nature, meaning they apply whether we are notified of their existence, we are expected to know what they are. The 25 mph residence district speed limit, for example. And a perfect example that you are hopefully familiar with is, and for vehicles defined under 22406:

    22406 No person may drive any of the following vehicles on a highway at a speed in excess of 55 miles per hour:
    (a) A motortruck or truck tractor having three or more axles or any motortruck or truck tractor drawing any other vehicle.
    (b) A passenger vehicle or bus drawing any other vehicle.
    (c) A schoolbus transporting any school pupil.
    (d) A farm labor vehicle when transporting passengers.
    (e) A vehicle transporting explosives.
    (f) A trailer bus, as defined in Section 636.

    The maximum speed limit anywhere in the state unless posted for a lower limit is 55 mph. This speed limit need not be posted, and it is clear that the relevant code section is void of mentioning such requirement.

    Four (e) In this case, and while it is a known fact that signs are posted, and there is a great likelihood that you passed quite a few om the way, but even if the D.O.T. slacked, or someone hit/damaged/broke/stole/defaced each and every sign on your route, and rendered them all useless, or however it may have worked out that no such signs were posted, this is a statutory mandate that DOES NOT require a sign to be posted for it to be in effect! At least there is nothing in 21718 that indicates any such requirement. So with signs or without signs, parking on a freeway or its on-ramps and off-ramps is prohibited except for the 7 exceptions listed in 21718 none of which, unfortunately, apply to your case.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    This law along with many other traffic laws is just used for revenue generating and has nothing to do with safety or the safety aspect has been lost many years ago. 21718 (a) became law in 1998.

    Whether you want to agree it is safety related or not, whether it was enacted in 1998, in 1965 or in 1959, it was in effect on the date you illegally parked and got cited. If for some reason you disagree with its validity or the motivation behind it, or the amount of statutory fine it carries or any other aspect about it or any other law, you are free to contact your state representative and express your opinion. Not only is that your right, I say it is your duty. But it is also your duty to abide by it just like any other law that is valid and enforceable. You could have complied, but you chose not to, and so any revenue that is generated as a result is a voluntary contribution from you to the state.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    This along with the comment are off topic, but the law states No person shall stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle upon a freeway which has full control of access and no crossings at grade. It does not state non-emergency stopping. non emergency stopping is only listed under a refusal to obey a signage law, which in this area there was no sign.

    Now you're rambling incoherently. But hey, guess what? Coincidentally, it is time I realize I invested enough time in this thread to try and get you facing in the right direction, but you like going against the grain. There are plenty of other things I can do with my time. It isn't my license that is going to get screwed nor is it my record that will carry these points. Good luck to you whatever you may do!
  • 09-09-2013, 08:46 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    That it is possible to stop anywhere off the highway to nap. That is the reason I asked where the closest truck stops were.

    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    Notwithstanding the 'dingle berry" description, I could not argue with the obvious. And I am sorry but which part of my response is it that you are taking exception to? And why?

  • 09-12-2013, 03:36 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Still no notice, and now my appearance date is 6 days away. Either the officer goofed up, which wouldn't be a shock considering that the CHP recruits from low hanging fruit.. If you are under 35 and have a GED come on down and apply, although we would like someone with a degree...and now the laugh riot begins, they consider an AA something other than showing up on time for a year. If you have an AA, we want you to apply, about 6 years ago a drunk driver ran into my trailers, (he tried to push his van through my dolly{it didn't work in his favor}), the CHP chick who showed up was going to have the drunk stand on the drivers side of his car. I told her that she might just want to smell his breath before she had the him stand in a situation which could kill him and her carrier simultaneously. Like teachers which we are supposed to respect for God knows what reason, we are also supposed to respect law enforcement officers, both groups of people really have a minimal amount of education, although teachers must have a B.A. and a teaching credential while a law enforcement officer only needs to have a GED. No wonder these goof balls are becoming Youtube laughing stocks, by the way my meathead readers,.. it is not big brother whom happens to be watching, it is little tiny brother who is watching, he has his Gopro, attached to his quad copter which, when he is not spying on his 15 year neighbor trying on her under sized bras, he is flying over your noggin watching your perpetually consistent blunders. With baited breath he is waiting for you to goof up. Now my dear meatheads that is rambling, just so your vapid empty skulls can understand what rambling is. This is just too much fun. JK please post again when you have hit 30,000 posts, God knows you have the most empty life of any man woman or child on earth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    My poor poor sod, you have absolutely no idea about which you talk, the hypothetical situation is and would be considered reckless driving it goes well beyond negligence. In addition to this, the attorney would use the shotgun approach to a lawsuit and file legal action against every entity he/she could file papers upon. So guess what, the CHP's retirement fund gets an attachment placed upon it. Just kidding, I'm sure that the citizens of California will be delighted to pay for the goof.
  • 09-12-2013, 03:42 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Was he busting your chops in a day cab? You may get a bit of leniency if the truck stop you passed does not have room to work pups around at night and you have pictures. The law is the law, however, unless you are in a sleeper, you have an employer structured work schedule with less room for safety breaks.
  • 09-13-2013, 01:24 PM
    That Guy
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Quote:

    Quoting Disagreeable
    View Post
    TG, I take one exception to your response. Not everyone on the road is running around with a 25 ton, 53 or 60 foot dingle berry behind them.
    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    Notwithstanding the 'dingle berry" description, I could not argue with the obvious. And I am sorry but which part of my response is it that you are taking exception to? And why?
    Quote:

    Quoting Disagreeable
    View Post
    That it is possible to stop anywhere off the highway to nap. That is the reason I asked where the closest truck stops were.



    OK, I think I know which comment you are referring to simply because it was the one comment where I suggested he should have continued off the off-ramp. Although I still am not clear why is it that you would take exception to any of it… For one I did not single him or any group out, I even included myself in a hypothetical to further explain my point, and two, my statement was not far from being a direct interpretation of both, state and federal laws and regulations. I’ll elaborate…

    Quote:

    Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    I think that would go along with FMCA 392.3

    392.3Ill or fatigued operator.
    No driver shall operate a commercial motor vehicle, and a motor carrier shall not require or permit a driver to operate a commercial motor vehicle, while the driver's ability or alertness is so impaired, or so likely to become impaired, through fatigue, illness, or any other cause, as to make it unsafe for him/her to begin or continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle. However, in a case of grave emergency where the hazard to occupants of the commercial motor vehicle or other users of the highway would be increased by compliance with this section, the driver may continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle to the nearest place at which that hazard is removed.

    I read that to mean two things...

    (1) It prohibits a commercial driver from starting to drive a commercial vehicle while his ability or alertness is so impaired, or so likely to become impaired, through fatigue, illness.... etc. It does not mean you should continue to drive until such a point where you can no longer function enough to continue another half a mile or however long that ramp was to find another more appropriate location where you can legally park.

    (2) While you would like to interpret it to mean that it affords you the ability to stop for reasons of promoting safety to person and property, it clearly requires you to continue driving until such a point where the location you are choosing to stop is not likely to increase any hazardous situation if you were to otherwise stop. Now, can you guess as to what the legislative intent behind enacting CVC 21718 was when they did enact it? In other words, why are we prohibited from parking on the side of a freeway and/or an off ramp unless it is an emergency stop? Because it is unsafe for us and for other drivers who may need to make an emergency stop for us to be in the way.

    That said, you are not likely...

    I assume that you have no issues with anything in the statement I made in (1). Under (2) and while I can see how you might assume that through my use of "you" to describe the OP, that I was segregating him into a class whose member are only those who are running around on the road with a 25 ton, 53 or 60 foot dingle berry behind them. I don't think you finished reading the entire paragraph... Had you done that, you can easily see that to counter the OP's argument (that "Federal law allowed him to park there because falling asleep constituted an emergency"), I posed a contrasting hypothetical to his defense plan where I included "my"self (as part of "us") as being one of the drivers who had committed this violation and why it that "our" decision to illegally park as he did compromised other drivers' safety simply because we parked at a location where another driver needing to make an emergency stop might need to utilize his attempt. That alone should make it obvious that it is my understanding that this law applies equally to all vehicles of all sizes (mine included) and all drivers (including myself). If my comments were intended to offend or discriminate, would I have included myself? I doubt it... So why would you take exception?

    But to take this a step further, you are inferring that I should not have suggested that he continue to drive off the off-ramp to try and find another spot to park and nap, and this is your opinion because it is difficult to navigate a 25 ton, 53 or 60 foot trailer... Truth is, and regardless of who this might be or what type, weight, length a vehicle s/he is driving, I expect that driver to be reasonably capable of handling and maneuvering that vehicle in a way that is not conducive to the creation of any added unsafe elements for other person(s) or property. If not, then don't get behind the wheel. While this theory should apply to ALL drivers (again) regardless of the size or weight vehicle they drive, I will say that it is my opinion that the larger the vehicle and the more it weighs, the more difficult it is to control and the more qualified, its driver needs to be because the slightest mistake could cause more injuries and more damage than a smaller vehicle that weighs less. But it isn't only I who is making this distinction, each and every state in the union does the same, even the Federal government has established some legal standards that any CDL drivers (referred to as CMV "Commercial Motor Vehicle" drivers in Federal regulations) must comply with, whereas with other drivers, it is merely a general expectation to “exercise due care”, These added and specific requirements include but are not limited to the following:

    Subpart G - Required knowledge and skills

    § 383.111 Required knowledge.

    (a) All CMV operators must have knowledge of the following 20 general areas:
    .......
    (4) Basic control. The proper procedures for performing various basic maneuvers, including:
    (i) Starting, warming up, and shutting down the engine;
    (ii) Putting the vehicle in motion and stopping;
    (iii) Backing in a straight line; and
    (iv) Turning the vehicle, e.g., basic rules, off tracking, right/left turns and right curves.
    (5) Shifting. The basic shifting rules and terms for common transmissions, including:
    (i) Key elements of shifting, e.g., controls, when to shift, and double clutching;
    (ii) Shift patterns and procedures; and
    (iii) Consequences of improper shifting.
    (6) Backing. The procedures and rules for various backing maneuvers, including:
    (i) Backing principles and rules; and
    (ii) Basic backing maneuvers, e.g., straight-line backing, and backing on a curved path.
    (7) Visual search. The importance of proper visual search, and proper visual search methods, including:
    (i) Seeing ahead and to the sides;
    (ii) Use of mirrors; and
    (iii) Seeing to the rear.
    (8) Communication. The principles and procedures for proper communications and the hazards of failure to signal properly, including:
    (i) Signaling intent, e.g., signaling when changing direction in traffic;
    (ii) Communicating presence, e.g., using horn or lights to signal presence; and
    (iii) Misuse of communications.
    (9) Speed management. The importance of understanding the effects of speed, including:
    (i) Speed and stopping distance;
    (ii) Speed and surface conditions;
    (iii) Speed and the shape of the road;
    (iv) Speed and visibility; and
    (v) Speed and traffic flow.
    (10) Space management . The procedures and techniques for controlling the space around the vehicle, including:
    (i) The importance of space management;
    (ii) Space cushions, e.g., controlling space ahead/to the rear;
    (iii) Space to the sides; and
    (iv) Space for traffic gaps.
    (11) Night operation. Preparations and procedures for night driving, including:
    (i) Night driving factors, e.g., driver factors (vision, glare, fatigue, inexperience);
    (ii) Roadway factors (low illumination, variation in illumination, unfamiliarity with roads, other road users, especially drivers exhibiting erratic or improper driving); and
    (iii) Vehicle factors (headlights, auxiliary lights, turn signals, windshields and mirrors).


    So you see… even if I had suggested that he should have continued down the off-ramp and off the freeway, and assuming I singled him and/or other dingle berry pullers as a group, the dingle berry and that such combination is more difficult to maneuver does not really preclude him from compliance of this law, so continuing down the ramp and in spite of potential difficulties was really his only legitimate option. As for your statement about the distance from the last truck stop, I don't know if you've ever been to California but "truck stops" and "rest areas" aren't very popular here, at least not as much as they are on the east coast or the midwest. Oh you'll find gas stations, maybe a few fast food joints... But nothing like I've seen back east with structured parking lots, bathrooms, maybe even shower rooms, restaurants, motels... etc. And you are not going to see signs announcing how far you are from the next "rest area".



    ************************************************** **********************************************




    The rest of this is for Mr Dingle Berry himself… The OP.… Unfortunately for him, and much to the demise of any hint of a defense plan that the OP might have had by using his made up “emergency” suggesting that his sudden onset of fatigue as an excuse against his alleged violation, this should make it plenty clear that not only does state law conflict with his claim and his understanding that this is a defense, Federal law also outlines a requirement that a CDL holder (CMV operator) MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE of issues related to:


    (20) Fatigue and awareness. Practices that are important to staying alert and safe while driving, including;
    (i) Being prepared to drive;
    (ii) What to do when driving to avoid fatigue;
    (iii) What to do when sleepy while driving; and
    (iv) What to do when becoming ill while driving.


    All of which indicate practices to AVOID finding himself where he did that day/night. Instead, he is under the impression that the Code of Federal Regulations provides him with an exception? I can imagine that it does require him to stop and get some rest when feeling tired and/or sleepy although I doubt anyone would buy his idea that it would be OK to break the law to do as part of “what to do when sleepy while driving”

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    Still no notice, and now my appearance date is 6 days away. Either the officer goofed up, which wouldn't be a shock considering that the CHP recruits from low hanging fruit.

    What notice are you speaking of? The courtesy notice? It is a courtesy reminder from the court, no requirement for one but if you have not received one, it could mean your citation had not been filed yet (but you would thing you would have looked up to see if it was by checking on the court's website).... Or it could mean the address on your citation (which likely ended up on the citation) is an older incorrect/invalid address (not that would be the first time you'd broken the law through your own ignorance) and it was sent there which means you'll never get one.

    With notice or without, it would be advisable for you to appear on the date shown on the citation and if your case had not been filed yet, ask the clerk if they can give you some sort of proof that you were there as promised. Which also means you will have to return at a later date when it does get eventually filed and scheduled to go to court.

    Quote:

    Quoting dgc2656
    View Post
    Either the officer goofed up, which wouldn't be a shock considering that the CHP recruits from low hanging fruit.

    Actually, there is not a single hint of evidence that he goofed up anything yet... You on the other hand, broke the law and are setting yourself up for the ultimate in punishments that a CDL holder can get.

    As for low hanging fruit, you never told us where you got your Masters OR your PHD smart guy...
  • 09-13-2013, 01:59 PM
    dgc2656
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    The guy was on a training mission that day/night.. either he was the sidekick or the other guy was, yes it was a day cab I was driving.

    It took over 3 weeks to get my courtesy notice, which showed up today. I have gotten an extension until Dec for payment of bail, it is cheap ($229.00) considering it is a point for class C and 1.5 points for class A. I have decided that I have a new and fun hobby which is to dick around with court system. Here is my problem with this ticket.

    I had no idea I was in violation of any law. JK and his circle jerk pals will pipe up that ignorance of the law is no excuse, oh well.

    If you compare the 101 freeway to the 5 freeway you will see far more trucks parked on the actual freeway, not on the off and on ramps.

    The CHP are state police and have to enforce the law equally across the board, then why are there emergency lanes on the 101 that are used to park trucks and cars. This could be useful, (signs read "litter will close down this area"{so does that mean you can break 21718 (a) as long as you don't toss out your super big gulp cup}). My research so far hasn't shown much. There are signs "no parking", "emergency parking only", "no parking, no trespassing, no stopping", plenty plenty and plenty of signage, but on the 5 nuttin honey.

    I want to use the Freedom of Information act to get court records of violators of 21718 (a) and find out from those records how those people got out of their ticket and on which freeways. It may also tell me how they managed to drag out their cases for months and got a plea deal. The idea of paying an attorney $500-$800 to basically follow a recipe irks the crap out of me, I should be able to figure this stuff out and 3 months (time to my plea date).

    Now here is where I get really bugged, on the Courtesy Notice they list all of the super groovy ways you can pay off your ticket, but they don't even have a check box to fight the thing. No wonder only about 8% of the ticketed public challenges their tickets.

    As a member of the public you have to send a certified letter to the court to fight the thing. That falls into the B.S. pile if you ask me.

    My other hook on the ticket is that if I do a trail in person, the CHP officer will earn $200-$300 in overtime pay to show up, but if I do a trial by written declaration it is all un paid, is he going to want to spend 20-30 hours of his off time dicking around with some goof ball just so he can smudge the guys driving record, and hit him up for $229.00. That all depends on if he is some nut bag,.. who has 22K posts on some website or if he has a life and would rather be with his family.

    To me this is, as it sits right now, just a challenge, people at work say "Oh you can't win", "That county hates drivers, we are just their meal ticket", "oooooh-Nooo you got a ticket in Kern, you're dead you don't stand a chance". With all of this looser mindset I just become delighted at the opportunity to go against the grain.

    #1 Cost the county more than it is going to make off of you. Dick around with the county as much as possible.

    #2 If I loose the TBD, I have a second clean slate shot at getting it dismissed at an actual trial. Which will cost the county more money. By the time they say guilty, they will be $500.00 in the hole. I might loose $229, but it will have of cost the county of Kern $750.00 to get my $229.00. In the business world that is a called a very bad investment. I hope these dopes know how to spell "Lets cut our losses". Oh well enough rambling for now.
  • 09-13-2013, 07:40 PM
    Disagreeable
    Re: Ticket for Stopping or Parking on an Entry Ramp, VC 21718 (A)
    Wow TG, I feel bad that you spent so much time extrapolating my response. I only meant this:
    Quote:

    Imagine if everyone who felt a little sleepy could pull over to the side of a freeway or off ramp to take a nap!
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