Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
In most places the CD demand is made for whatever the statutory maximum is regardless of whether the item was recovered or not (either at the time of theft or through restitution). The amount of damage done to the stores by the criminals exceeds the actual value of the merchandise. LP doesn't typically play ANY role in the CD process (other than to forward the information to the home office). There's nothing to pad. Even if the item is recovered 100% resalable and put back on the shelf, they can still demand $300 in statutory damages plus the costs of prosecuting such..
If it comes to a civil court action, I'm not anywhere near as optimistic as bam!. The real issue is that these rarely are pursued in court because they can't collect enough to make it worth their legal efforts.
Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
A few stores allow LP to collect the Civil Demand on spot. Souperdave and I probably have a good guess as to what retailer this is, and no its not one that he has worked for. The store that I am thinking of ranks their LP teams based off of dollars of civil demand collected. It makes sense they would inflate the dollar "owed" in order to obtain higher numbers.
I am not on either side. The OP shoplifted and got away by their own admission. They then shoplifted again and got caught. The LP said pay up or else. The LP came out on top and the OP is $1500 poorer.
LP can take your picture. They can rummage through bags. They can refuse paperwork. They can ask for any amount of money they want. You are free to subpoena the paperwork and refuse all demands.
My question to the OP: Did they explain a civil demand paper to you and have you sign or initial the paper? Did they bring you to a register and process your payment or did they take your card?
Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
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bam!
Right. But by not recovering the merchandise, the store would have to result to restitution to be made whole.
Restitution is a criminal law concept.
The statute allows for recovery of "the retail value of the goods, merchandise or produce taken, if not recovered by the time of the commencement of the action or if recovered in an unmerchantable condition".
The statute is somewhat atypical, as it does not expressly allow for a civil demand - it simply describes the civil remedy available through court. I would not recommend the practice followed in the described incident. But the statute does allow for recovery of compensation for merchandise that is not recovered.
The "punitive" portion of the damages are in addition to actual losses. Some stores demand the full amount; some demand less. If the matter goes to court, the court picks the number.
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Quoting bam!
The poster would have a good chance at disputing this charge and winning.
The dispute would be a matter between the poster and the credit card company. Assuming the credit card company grants the charge back and finds that the merchant is not entitled to the money, it will be up to the merchant to decide whether to pursue the matter in court. Some merchants sue, many others do not - that's a roll of the dice. The dice roll might also inspire the merchant to report the matter to the police.
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Quoting bam!
They should be charged the demand for the time they were physically apprehended.
Better practice, sure, but again not what the statute says.
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Quoting bam!
As all know, judges and juries have spent years debating civil demand laws and their legality. Some states do not allow Civil Demand at all and Conn only allows it for adults, not juveniles.
And some states, including the one under discussion, don't have particularly helpful laws for the making of civil demands, as opposed to the filing of an actual lawsuit.
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Quoting bam!
My question to the OP: Did they explain a civil demand paper to you and have you sign or initial the paper? Did they bring you to a register and process your payment or did they take your card?
... the answers to which could be helpful for a dispute of the charge with your credit card company.
Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
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bam!
A few stores allow LP to collect the Civil Demand on spot. Souperdave and I probably have a good guess as to what retailer this is, and no its not one that he has worked for. The store that I am thinking of ranks their LP teams based off of dollars of civil demand collected. It makes sense they would inflate the dollar "owed" in order to obtain higher numbers.
I am not on either side. The OP shoplifted and got away by their own admission. They then shoplifted again and got caught. The LP said pay up or else. The LP came out on top and the OP is $1500 poorer.
LP can take your picture. They can rummage through bags. They can refuse paperwork. They can ask for any amount of money they want. You are free to subpoena the paperwork and refuse all demands.
My question to the OP: Did they explain a civil demand paper to you and have you sign or initial the paper? Did they bring you to a register and process your payment or did they take your card?
Bam!,
Thank you asking questions. I appreciate your insight into this matter. The store was L*T. The LP said they had right to get back their money from everything I had ever taken from the store. As I mentioned in the original post, I inflated what I had taken because I was scared that if I had told him that I had only taken two other items, he would not believe me and call the police. The LP then went out into the store and took clothes from the floor and said this is what I owed in addition to the $750 incidents demand. I did not see nor read a civil demand paper. I did NOT initial nor sign anything except the register receipt they gave me which stated miscellaneous and $1500 charge on it. They took my card while I sat in the room. I did not go to the register. They also went through my wallet and took out every card that I own, spread them out on the table as well other items from my purse even though their items were right on top. I am mostly worried that I will be asked to pay more from their lawyers as well as be arrested down the road. I thought that since I paid their demand and they did not call the police, that nothing more would happen and yet I keep reading that they can still do it. Is it likely that they will? And mall security took my picture as well. Will they circulate it to every store in the mall? I understand the store having it, but the whole mall? Please ask your questions, and, thank you.
Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
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Kat1425
Bam!,
Thank you asking questions. I appreciate your insight into this matter. The store was L*T. The LP said they had right to get back their money from everything I had ever taken from the store. As I mentioned in the original post, I inflated what I had taken because I was scared that if I had told him that I had only taken two other items, he would not believe me and call the police. The LP then went out into the store and took clothes from the floor and said this is what I owed in addition to the $750 incidents demand. I did not see nor read a civil demand paper. I did NOT initial nor sign anything except the register receipt they gave me which stated miscellaneous and $1500 charge on it. They took my card while I sat in the room. I did not go to the register. They also went through my wallet and took out every card that I own, spread them out on the table as well other items from my purse even though their items were right on top. I am mostly worried that I will be asked to pay more from their lawyers as well as be arrested down the road. I thought that since I paid their demand and they did not call the police, that nothing more would happen and yet I keep reading that they can still do it. Is it likely that they will? And mall security took my picture as well. Will they circulate it to every store in the mall? I understand the store having it, but the whole mall? Please ask your questions, and, thank you.
Mr Knowitall is factually correct. I speak from the best practice world as well as the world where I see tons of litigation regarding LP actions specifically with policy and procedure. These guys broke every rule in book and definitely padded the numbers. I would challenge the $1500 payment. I would pay the amount owed from the incident which they caught you and make them prove it and sue you for the ones they didn't. You not being present at the time they took possession of the card and swiped it is sketchy to say the least. What did they sign? Did they bypass the signature? Also a misc charge vs an account charge? What recourse do you have when they sue you for the amount owed? You have a receipt that says misc?
My advice is to contact the corporate office and talk with them. I would also file a dispute with the credit card company. Offer to pay the amount owed from the shoplifting case currently and take your chances on criminal prosecution. If they released you at the time of apprehension, I doubt they will charge you.
Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
Having read the OP first post - this is why I have never allowed LP to collect Civil Demand at the store level. There are a lot of things wrong here.
Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
There are many acceptable ways to collect civil demand. This is not one of them.
The mall will keep your picture on file for the length that they banned you for. I doubt they share it.
Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
I also felt that they crossed the line in some way, but as I mentioned, some advice suggested it was shady and others said do not dispute the civil demand, otherwise they could change their minds and send the police to your door. While it will take me years to pay off that credit card, I would rather pay the charge then have a police record/arrest. I would dispute it if I knew that they could no longer arrest me since they themselves crossed many lines, but to roll the dice?? I am not sure I am able to take that chance. And how would one go about calling corporate? What could one say?
"Hi, I took a couple of clothing items of yours and I think you charged me too much for catching me?"
I'm not sure that would go over so well. And, I might be recorded when I call, thus sinking my own ship. As much as I can remember (I wasn't doing too well at the time), there were 3 pieces of paper. One they told me was banning me from the store and asked me to sign it. I did not. The other was a list of items taken from the store (I think...I did not have my glasses) but I did make out some of the words which basically said "I sign this document of my own free will that I was caught.....". I did not sign that one either. I think the 3rd was the same as the second but for the previous items I had took. Mall security also wanted me to sign their form which I also did NOT do. The LP said I could not have copies of anything since I would not sign the forms themselves and told me that either I could pay now or he would have the lawyers contact me. I did not want my family to know what I had done, so I said I would pay. He left with my credit card and came back with a register receipt for me to sign that had a line charge of misc. I did sign that since it was a charge receipt but it had no other items, statements on it...it was a register receipt. He also took my store credit card for awhile (maybe to check my purchase history for the store?) but made the charge on my MasterCard. I do have that receipt. He also took my store receipt for the items I did pay for and put a big X thru it and told me I could never return those items as well. Is there a time limit for me to dispute the charge. Is this something an attorney should handle? I was thinking the attorney would cost the same as the demand...
Again, thank you all for your insights/opinions in this matter.
Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
You can consult with a Criminal Defense Attorney and see what he/she says. Most offer a free consult, so have your questions ready.
Advice: Even though you did not sign the trespass warnings - stay out of that store (and all it's locations nationwide) and stay out of that mall. You can be arrested for Criminal Trespass.
Re: I Was Accused of Shoplifting and to Pay a Civil Demand Right then and There
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Kat1425
I also felt that they crossed the line in some way, but as I mentioned, some advice suggested it was shady and others said do not dispute the civil demand, otherwise they could change their minds and send the police to your door. While it will take me years to pay off that credit card, I would rather pay the charge then have a police record/arrest. I would dispute it if I knew that they could no longer arrest me since they themselves crossed many lines, but to roll the dice?? I am not sure I am able to take that chance. And how would one go about calling corporate? What could one say?
"Hi, I took a couple of clothing items of yours and I think you charged me too much for catching me?"
I'm not sure that would go over so well. And, I might be recorded when I call, thus sinking my own ship. As much as I can remember (I wasn't doing too well at the time), there were 3 pieces of paper. One they told me was banning me from the store and asked me to sign it. I did not. The other was a list of items taken from the store (I think...I did not have my glasses) but I did make out some of the words which basically said "I sign this document of my own free will that I was caught.....". I did not sign that one either. I think the 3rd was the same as the second but for the previous items I had took. Mall security also wanted me to sign their form which I also did NOT do. The LP said I could not have copies of anything since I would not sign the forms themselves and told me that either I could pay now or he would have the lawyers contact me. I did not want my family to know what I had done, so I said I would pay. He left with my credit card and came back with a register receipt for me to sign that had a line charge of misc. I did sign that since it was a charge receipt but it had no other items, statements on it...it was a register receipt. He also took my store credit card for awhile (maybe to check my purchase history for the store?) but made the charge on my MasterCard. I do have that receipt. He also took my store receipt for the items I did pay for and put a big X thru it and told me I could never return those items as well. Is there a time limit for me to dispute the charge. Is this something an attorney should handle? I was thinking the attorney would cost the same as the demand...
Again, thank you all for your insights/opinions in this matter.
See this is what they are banking on, that people will be ashamed (rightfully so) and that cost to sue them is prohibitive to most people. That and lawyers cost more than the civil demand.
Look, tons of people steal all the time and a ton of people get caught. I would start by disputing the charge, specifically the amount charged. The store level people will not know about credit card chargebacks because it is handled at a higher level. Things are in place for consumer privacy and credit card encryption is mandated by law. Your account number is not really your account number, it is an internal number that LT assigns to you to track purchases. I am 99.9% certain, the store will never know that you disputed the charge. If they did, these LP are shady, shady LP's do not show up to court usually as it is a lot of work and time. These guys want to look good for their bosses, so they see people with money or access to lines of credit and hit them hard.
My advice is to tell the store to prove the past thefts. Dispute the charge, pay the proper CD and seek legal counsel. The burden of proof is on the store and the state if they choose to get involved. You are innocent until they prove you guilty. You have a tough choice to make. Do you roll over like a sheep, or do you stand up for your rights and what you believe in? I personally feel like you have a pretty decent case for a number of different claims against LT. You also have a great chance at getting your money back.
Contact legal professionals. Contact corporate. Contact the news. There are even government agencies that help people like you. Getting caught shoplifting is shameful. Im sure it sucks and you are sorry. It was fun stealing the stuff and getting it for free. You got caught like millions of others. That doesn't make it ok for them to extort you like this. (yes I went there).
I would like other posters to chime in. Maybe I am in left field.