What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
My question involves a traffic citation from the state of: Arizona
I have been locking my bike to the same street sign all semester, because the bike racks are always full. Yesterday I came out of class to see that the University of Arizona transportation officials had cut my lock and were impounding my bike. I got into an argument with them because they had never once given me a warning saying that it was against policy to lock a bike to street signs and I didn't think it was fair to impound a bike without giving notice. The sign wasn't marked with anything saying you couldn't lock bikes to it.
I'm appealing my ticket on the university website and I see that it says that "lack of knowledge of university regulations is not grounds for an appeal."
My question is, who are they to tell me that I don't have the right to appeal? The university is a non-elected, quasi-legal entity that is going around creating its own laws and issuing its own citations. I thought it was a principle of law that everyone has the right to an appeal and a hearing, and I don't know how the university can choose not to abide by this.
The street signs across the street are public property and it's legal to lock bikes to them. The university is a public university, so you would think the same laws apply. I tried appealing anyways, but if they deny my appeal there must be a way to get this case transferred to the County Court which is run by legal experts and not school administrators, right?
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
Sorry, give it up. You aren't going to win this.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
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The university is a public university, so you would think the same laws apply.
why is that? The university has myriad rules that apply on their property that don't have the same or comparable laws for truly public property.
refer to the student handbook. If the rule is in there, you're toast. If it isn't, then check any other distributed information for the rule. If it has not been published, then argue it. If it has been distributed in a publication that is given to the student body, you're toast.
They did allow you to appeal the ticket. They ruled against you.
I also wouldn't bet it is legal to lock your bike to a public street sign though. I have no checked but I think you might be wrong.
Hey, look what I found in the U of Ariz student handbook:
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3. Restricted Parking Areas
Bicycles shall be parked in accordance with federal, state, and local fire and safety regulations.
Bicycles shall not be parked or stored:
a. in any University building (e.g. offices, residence halls, classrooms, or parking structures without a
bicycle storage facility;)
b. against or fastened to any tree, plant, bush, or foliage;
c. against or fastened to any water, steam or gas pipe, fitting, electrical fixture, fence, sign post, railing,
public seating fixture, or emergency safety device;
d. upon or attached to any ingress/egress ramp, stairway or stairwell railing or otherwise fastened to or
blocking any exit/entrance to any University building;
e. in any locked, controlled entry enclosure if access has not been authorized by Parking and
Transportation Services; or
f. in any other area where parking is specifically prohibited by these regulations or by signs.
the onus is upon you to actually read and understand the information the university distributes to you. Based on that, you were told it is illegal to lock your bike to a sign post.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
Yes, I read that too. But I was never given a copy of this handbook. I was never sent any kind of email that talked about bike regulations. Yes, you can argue that being a student entails going online, finding a handbook, reading it, and following the rules. But I would also say that the university did no due diligence to inform the public of these rules. When the city passes a law it's noted in the matters of record in the paper. But the university can just make up any kinds of rules and start citing people for them.
Also, they never ruled against my appeal. I'm still waiting on it. My question is, how can they dictate the reasons why you can't file an appeal? You have the right to challenge a traffic ticket even if you were speeding. And you have the right to a hearing. If it was the city that impounded my bike I would have these rights, right? So I'm just wondering how the university, which is an un-elected group of administrators, has the right to create its own rules under which you aren't allowed any of the normal freedoms that the law provides.
If you had your car impounded for parking in some sort of restricted parking area that wasn't marked at all and were told, "just go online and look through the city code and you'll find that under section 34.6 it's illegal to park in front of a house that has two cats," you'd probably want to challenge this citation as well.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
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saltyd
If you had your car impounded for parking in some sort of restricted parking area that wasn't marked at all and were told, "just go online and look through the city code and you'll find that under section 34.6 it's illegal to park in front of a house that has two cats," you'd probably want to challenge this citation as well.
and chances are the challenge would fail, just as yours will here.
I also suspect it is school policy to issue a student handbook upon acceptance or registration at the school or at least, at some point state that it is the duty of the student to comply with the rules in the student handbook which then puts the obligation on you to seek out and review that document. You aren't likely to convince anybody that U/A does things that differently than most every other school in the country.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
Please cite the city law that guarantees you the right to lock your bike to a street sign.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
"City of Tucson Bicycle Laws
SEC. 5-1. Bicycles parked on a public sidewalk or street must not hinder either pedestrian or vehicles, and must allow access to adjacent property. It shall be unlawful to park a bicycle upon any public sidewalk or street in a manner that substantially impedes pedestrian or vehicular traffic or obstructs access to public or private facilities."
This is for the city, and it seems to imply that the city would need to prove I was blocking access with my bike. I've seen some bikes on public sidewalks that are parked in an obstructive way and I've never heard of anyone's bike being impounded. But the university's rules are even more restrictive. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to find out the answers to some questions that no one seems to be able to answer:
1. Do I have a legal right to an appeal and hearing as I would if I was handed a city citation?
2. Because it's a public university is it public property, private property, or some weird gray area?
3. If I wasn't a student would the university still have the authority to issue me a ticket, claiming that I should have read the student handbook before biking through a public university?
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
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saltyd
"City of Tucson Bicycle Laws
SEC. 5-1. Bicycles parked on a public sidewalk or street must not hinder either pedestrian or vehicles, and must allow access to adjacent property. It shall be unlawful to park a bicycle upon any public sidewalk or street in a manner that substantially impedes pedestrian or vehicular traffic or obstructs access to public or private facilities."
This is for the city, and it seems to imply that the city would need to prove I was blocking access with my bike. I've seen some bikes on public sidewalks that are parked in an obstructive way and I've never heard of anyone's bike being impounded. But the university's rules are even more restrictive. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to find out the answers to some questions that no one seems to be able to answer:
1. Do I have a legal right to an appeal and hearing as I would if I was handed a city citation?
2. Because it's a public university is it public property, private property, or some weird gray area?
3. If I wasn't a student would the university still have the authority to issue me a ticket, claiming that I should have read the student handbook before biking through a public university?
sorry but that does not allow a bike to be locked to a street sign. That law doesn't restrict it either. It simply does not address it in any way.
Let me give you a hint: you are not going to find a law that allows it. Laws are generally limiting and not permissive in their control. You don't find a law that says you can walk on the left or right hand side of a sidewalk but it is legal. If there happens to be someplace that thinks that is a problem, they will make a law restricting where one can walk.
The bike chained to a street sign is going to be the same.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
I'm still looking for the law that says you MAY lock your bike to the street sign.
Oh, wait. There isn't one.
Guess what, kid? That means there IS NO city law being "trumped" here. You lose.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
Does that mean that all behavior is assumed to be illegal until it's declared to be legal, or is it the other way around?
Also, please answer the other questions.
And don't call me "kid" or any other condescending terms.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
You are a kid. If I want to call you that, I will.
By saying that the university is "trumping" city law, you are saying that city law grants you the right to lock your bike there. The best possible interpretation of the city law that can be placed on it is that you are permitted to lock your bike to there as long as you comply with all conditions. Under NO interpretation are you guaranteed the right to leave it there. Therefore, there is no city law being trumped because the city's permission to leave the bike there is not absolute.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
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Quoting
saltyd
Does that mean that all behavior is assumed to be illegal until it's declared to be legal, or is it the other way around?
Also, please answer the other questions.
And don't call me "kid" or any other condescending terms.
to me, you are a kid. It is not a condescending term, a disparaging term, or a derogatory term. You need to settle down so you are not expelled from school because it sounds like you really need to continue your education so you can figure out your ass from a hole in the ground. (and yes, that was a condescending statement)
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: a young person; especially:child —often used as a generalized reference to one especially younger or less experienced <the kid on the pro golf tour><poor kid>
your question about what is legal or illegal. I said exactly the opposite of what you just asked.
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1. Do I have a legal right to an appeal and hearing as I would if I was handed a city citation?
only if the rules of the school say you do
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2. Because it's a public university is it public property, private property, or some weird gray area?
private property. A State school is one subsidized by the state and often governed by state administrators. It is not owned by the state. Just a continuation; even when dealing with actual public property, you still must comply with any rules or laws put in place by the governing entity. Public property doesn't mean it is "your" and you get to do anything you want to do.
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3. If I wasn't a student would the university still have the authority to issue me a ticket, claiming that I should have read the student handbook before biking through a public university?
yes, they would. Could they enforce it? Likely not unless there was actually some notice of he rule given but along with that, they can demand you never set foot on their property again or face trespassing charges if you do.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
It's interesting how people try and make up for their own insecurities by going online and picking fights with random people that aren't looking to start anything.
I don't feel that anyone has answered my questions to my satisfaction, citing the relevant law to back up their opinions.
But I guess I'll find another forum where people don't compete to see who can be the most smug and patronizing person on the Internet.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
The relevant law was posted. You just chose to ignore it because it doesn't support your position and we wouldn't rubber stamp your twisted interpretation. But I'll tell you what, kid.
You go talk to a lawyer. Any lawyer you like. Tell him that since the city law does not expressly prohibit locking your bike to a street sign, the university is therefore blocked from making such a prohibition themselves, and if they do, they have to email you with a notice of such.
Then come back and tell us how long it is before he stops laughing.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
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Quoting
saltyd
It's interesting how people try and make up for their own insecurities by going online and picking fights with random people that aren't looking to start anything.
I don't feel that anyone has answered my questions to my satisfaction, citing the relevant law to back up their opinions.
But I guess I'll find another forum where people don't compete to see who can be the most smug and patronizing person on the Internet.
And this coming from the bratty child who insulted a bunch of people down the street, too?
How ... interesting.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
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Quoting
cbg
Tell him that since the city law does not expressly prohibit locking your bike to a street sign,
.
actually, I would be willing to put a buck on it there is such a law or at least one that is interpreted to outlaw the practice. I'm not going to go looking for it though because apparently I am smug and patronizing and I think that is what smug and patronizing people are supposed to do.
Re: What Gives a Public University the Right to Trump City Law
I wouldn't be at all surprised.