Interpreting a Survey

My question involves real estate located in the State of: TX

If the angle for a NW bearing is 35 degrees in 1904, then wouldn't it be in error to use the azimuth of 325 degrees today?

The math adds up but the declination may or may not be the same now as in 1904.
Its generally not a good idea to take an old bearing and try to determine the direction of a property line.
A retracement survey should only be done by a competent licensed surveyor.

It sounds like you are comparing two different methods of reporting the direction of a line. If you are looking at a recent survey map reporting the directions in azimuths and comparing to an older survey map or deed reporting directions in bearings, it can be a little confusing if you are not familiar with the differences and the similarities in the systems. The short answer is, as long as the recent surveyor used a common set of points as the older survey or deed to determine his directions, it doesn't matter whether he reports them as bearings or as azimuths.

Bearings are measured in degrees from either North or South to either East or West. A bearing of N 35 W is a direction that is 35 degrees westerly, or counterclockwise from facing straight North.

Azimuths can be measured from either North or from South as the basis. In the northern hemisphere, unless an azimuth is specifically designated as a South Azimuth, it is measured from straight North (I'm not using "due" North as it has legal significance as meaning true astronomic North, a very specific technical definition which may, but in most cases doesn't apply to land descriptions in specific deeds, unless the description calls "due North" without further qualification). An azimuth of 325 degrees is a direction which is 325 degrees clockwise from straight North. Straight East is at 90 degrees, Straight South is at 180 degrees. Straight West is at 270 degrees.

A full circle has 360 degrees, so an azimuth of 0 degrees and an azimuth of 360 degrees are the same direction: North. 325 clockwise from North is the same direction as 35 degrees counterclockwise from North (360 - 325 = 35), so an azimuth of 325 is the same as a bearing of N 35 W.

What is important when interpreting surveys and deed descriptions when determining whether the directions are the same is determining that they were based on, or related to common points of control.

There is a whole lot more to interpreting surveys, but I hope this answers the question of comparing bearings and azimuths.

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Quoting phjj

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The math adds up but the declination may or may not be the same now as in 1904.
Its generally not a good idea to take an old bearing and try to determine the direction of a property line.
A retracement survey should only be done by a competent licensed surveyor.

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Since the 1904 deed is referenced in my current deed, my lot begins at the SW corner of that lot.

The NW & SE bearings with the angle of 35° are the side property lines.

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Quoting eapls2708

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There is a whole lot more to interpreting surveys, but I hope this answers the question of comparing bearings and azimuths.

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One more, although I think you answered it, to be sure let me ask if you don't mind, is the angle of the bearing based upon Magnetic North or True North? {I did catch what you said that usually not True North unless indicated, but just to clarify since it was reference while discussing azimuths}


I was reviewing a Land Surveyor Book published in 1904, while it contains a whole chapter on the issue of magnetic declination, which if not mistaken is referred unto today as magnetic variance, it never specifically said either way. However, I couldn't help but notice in reviewing some of the documents from the State Surveyor's Board regarding the history of Surveying, that it was noted that surveying dated back to Biblical times. While it reference some of the Holy text regarding boundary lines for the territory given to the children of Israel, and the abomination of removing a neighbor's landmark, I never saw any reference to Jasher's Compass, nor the Crying Prophet.

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One more, although I think you answered it, to be sure let me ask if you don't mind, is the angle of the bearing based upon Magnetic North or True North? {I did catch what you said that usually not True North unless indicated, but just to clarify since it was reference while discussing azimuths}

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Without having the full description in front of us, it's impossible to answer that question. Even with the full description, it could be difficult to divine the intention of the original surveyor without the local experience of knowing the local custom in 1904, and possibly knowing the identity of the original surveyor and his usual habits. But in retracing a description, your question is likely immaterial. The safest interpretation of the the bearings is to assume that they are important only in relation to each other.

What is the purpose of this thread? Are you attempting to resolve an apparently ambiguous boundary? Are you trying to help some boy scouts with a merit badge?

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Quoting LandSurveyor

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Without having the full description in front of us, it's impossible to answer that question.

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Reading the question again, it was improperly phrased.

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Quoting LandSurveyor

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.What is the purpose of this thread?

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Last June, I originally posted a question regarding the determination of the NW corner of a particular Block. Subsequently I filed a claim on the Title policy, since the Title Insurer paid the full face value of the Policy amount, since they don't normally write checks like that for nothing, I am trying to determine how bad it actually is and what, if anything can be done to possibly correct the defect in the property title.

In the statement by the Claims Attorney, his response was "The Surveyor confirmed [referring to their first Survey Co. findings] that the Property was difficult, if not impossible to locate, and was also located in a Block that no longer existed, or was renamed, or merged into another. Accordingly, the Company requested a check for the full face amount of the Policy, as indicated above.

It should be noted that the title issue was rather complex. Indeed, land does not ordinary disappear. Due to the alleged description errors, or in this case, the inability of the legal description to be physically located due to vagueness in reference to the point of beginning and Block number, it was necessary to obtain a complete picture of the chain of title through a complete title search."

While the 1904 deed shows the side boundary lines running at the angle of 35° A plat from 1914 records that the streets running in the same bearing as the side property lines, run at an angle of 44.5° Then it seems to me that their should be an offset of approximately 10° between the side property lines and the street lines running in the same direction. But they now run practically identical and there is no record for those properties which account for the change.

And while very general, I am not trying to be a surveyor-only trying to see if I am on the right track to determine what to do about the defect. Since the magnetic variance value from 1904 is approximately 8° E. So adding the variance with the azimuth for the street angle, 315.5 + 8 = 323.5° which is the approximate value of what the azimuth for the side boundary lines would be not accounting for the declination.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-h...700/092194.png

This is a accurate depiction of what the original plat recorded for the area when filed in 1896, all the area known as Block No. 9 is that area at within the creek and road boundary.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-V...U/s869/mAP.jpg

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Quoting itisup2us

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And while very general, I am not trying to be a surveyor-only trying to see if I am on the right track to determine what to do about the defect.

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If you really want to get on the right tract, hire a competent Registered Land Surveyor.

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Quoting phjj

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If you really want to get on the right tract, hire a competent Registered Land Surveyor.

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So your advice is hire a competent Registered Land Surveyor, I am not sure if that was a slam on the surveyors that answer questions on this site, or me, but I don't have any problem with their opinions, in fact I got tens of thousands of reasons not to have a problem.

I have to acknowledge that is very good advice since I really do want to get on the right tract, or rather my land. Or did you use the word "tract" rather than "track" due to a error in keystroke, entering a "t" instead of "k". Interesting how things can go Biblical. TRACT

Since the initial Claim Counsel for the Title insurer did their own title search and investigation, which was followed by a second Claim Counsel obtaining outside professional assistance from a Survey company which conducted its own title search and investigation that concluded it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to determine the P.O.B or the property location. At which point, another registered land surveyor was obtained "for the sole purpose of providing an opinion as to whether the property could be located with any certainty" One can draw their own conclusions on the reason the Title Insurer paid for the policy rather than correct the defect, yet any guesses on how much the Insurance company spent on what they paid out before they even paid on the claim?

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itisup2us;700604]So your advice is hire a competent Registered Land Surveyor, I am not sure if that was a slam on the surveyors that answer questions on this site, or me, but I don't have any problem with their opinions, in fact I got tens of thousands of reasons not to have a problem.

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it's neither. The people on this site are not going to research your land to determine what the issue is and how to resolve it. I suspect they do not have the necessary information available to them on the internet but beyond that, that is what they do for a living so while they provide a great amount of information for free, I am sure they have their limits as to what they will do for free.

So, with that said; to determine the status of your land, if you cannot do it yourself, is to hire a surveyor. Actually, a surveyor may be able to settle the issue. Maybe not. The only way to know is to hire one to at least review all of the pertinent information and ask.

I suspect you will end up in court with a suit to quiet title since there are so many unresolved issues with your lot. Sometimes that is the only way to settle the issues with a chunk of land.

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One can draw their own conclusions on the reason the Title Insurer paid for the policy rather than correct the defect, yet any guesses on how much the Insurance company spent on what they paid out before they even paid on the claim?

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I have no idea how much they spent but I can assure you that their cost of investigation and their cost to pay the claim was determined by them to be significantly less than the cost of litigating to quiet your title. Your cost to actually resolve the issue will depend on several factors that are unknown to us. If you get along well with all of your neighbors and you all are pretty much in agreement about your common boundaries, the solution is straightforward. But I suspect that the very nature of your posting indicates that there is a lack of harmony somewhere.

If so, as jk suggests, a suit to quiet title will be required to settle the boundary issue(s), at significant expense. In that case other factors, such as long-accepted lines of possession might come into play.

I didn't view phjj's post as a slam either. I saw it as advice that no matter how competent a surveyor might be, the advice one can give to a problem over the internet is very limited. As my signature line states, I am a surveyor, not your surveyor. If I were your surveyor, we would have a signed contract and an initial project meeting in which you give me all the information that you are aware of and I ask you questions to find out what your goals are, and to see if you have additional information that is pertinent but that you may not recognize as so.

Of those who have posted here (and I think posted to your June thread; it seems familiar), two of us are licensed surveyors, each with 30+ years of experience. Neither of us can give you definitive answers. We can only give you our impressions and some things to consider.

As I understand it, the properties in question are in an area that was mapped by lot & block, but that map is not in effect because it was never recorded or some similar reason. As I recall, the properties, rather than being described as Lot X of Block Y, are described as beginning at a Lot Corner or Block Corner of one of the nearby recorded subdivisions (as I recall, the block in question was 1 or 2 blocks away from blocks of recorded subdivisions).

In some cases, unrecorded maps can have a controlling effect, but if the metes & bounds deed descriptions of the parcels within the mapped area do not call for the unrecorded map and do not predominantly follow courses as shown on the unrecorded map, the map will rarely have a controlling effect.

The deviations in bearing (323 1/2 vs 333, 35 vs 44.5) could be functions of magnetic declination (magnetic vs astronomic directions), or records could have changed due to a transposition of numbers or typo somewhere back in the chain of title. No way to know until those possibilities are investigated. The only effective way to investigate that is to be the surveyor on the job. A surveyor who recognizes that the greater part of the job is investigation, and who will be thorough in that investigation, will not be cheap. In fact, that surveyor may be among the most expensive. Not what you want to hear, but not much way around it.

Tract, in the context of land and boundaries, rather than being a pamphlet providing an overview of the Good News message of the Gospel, refers to a parcel of land. It is usually a parcel which has been or can be divided into smaller parcels, but can refer to a single residential size lot as well.

I was definitely not trying to slam anyone. Only trying to give what I thought was god advice.
My pun -"tract" vs "track" went misunderstood and should have been in quotes.
eapls, you can make that 3 surveyors with 30yrs experience.