Repairing the Panel with the VIN Number Stamped into It
My question involves vehicle maintenance laws for the State of: NY
I'm not sure this is the correct section to post, but it's the closest I can find. Here's my question:
I'm renovating a 1970 Mustang and I need to replace the inner fender that the VIN is stamped into - a lot of people cut the old one out and weld it back into the new panel. I've been told this is illegal and will get me into trouble if it gets noticed by anyone inspecting the car. I have to apply for a new VIN from the DMV - which will devalue the car considerably and, if I ever sell it, nobody is going to want to buy a vintage ford that the VIN doesn't match up to the year 1970 and the various numbers that tell you it's a Mach 1 with a 351 Cleveland engine.
I've done some searching to get to the bottom of this and I have found that the State law conflicts the Federal law and I need some help deciphering things.
The NY state law states:
Quote:
§ 170.70 Illegal possession of a vehicle identification number.
A person is guilty of illegal possession of a vehicle identification
number when:
(1) He knowingly possesses a vehicle identification number label,
sticker or plate which has been removed from the vehicle or vehicle part
to which such label, sticker or plate was affixed by the manufacturer in
accordance with 49 U.S.C. section 32101, et seq. and regulations
promulgated thereunder or in accordance with the provisions of the
vehicle and traffic law; or
(2) He knowingly possesses a vehicle or vehicle part to which is
attached a vehicle identification number label, sticker or plate or on
which is stamped or embossed a vehicle identification number which has
been destroyed, covered, defaced, altered or otherwise changed, or a
vehicle or vehicle part from which a vehicle identification number
label, sticker or plate has been removed, which label, sticker or plate
was affixed in accordance with 49 U.S.C. section 32101, et seq. or
regulations promulgated thereunder, except when he has complied with the
provisions of the vehicle and traffic law and regulations promulgated
thereunder; or
(3) He knowingly possesses a vehicle, or part of a vehicle to which by
law or regulation must be attached a vehicle identification number,
either (a) with a vehicle identification number label, sticker, or plate
which was not affixed by the manufacturer in accordance with 49 U.S.C.
section 32101, et seq. or regulations promulgated thereunder, or in
accordance with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law or
regulations promulgated thereunder, or (b) on which is affixed, stamped
or embossed a vehicle identification number which was not affixed,
stamped or embossed by the manufacturer, or in accordance with 49 U.S.C.
section 32101, et seq. or regulations promulgated thereunder or in
accordance with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law or
regulations promulgated thereunder.
Illegal possession of a vehicle identification number is a class E
felony.
So thats me in jail and fined for some considerable money if I plan to do it - except - WAIT!!
18 USC Sec. 511 - which was amended in 2011 - says (and I'll make this one shorter)
Quote:
(a) A person who -
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal
or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a
removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person
specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person
knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are -
...
Quote:
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary
for the repair;
or
Quote:
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters
a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the
Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner
of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate,
tamper with or alter the decal or device by -
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
So that me TWICE - i'm both the owner (so i can removed it) and I'm repairing the panel that needs replacing (so I can remove and put it back)
HELP!
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Why do you need to apply for a new VIN? There should be a VIN plate on the dash and you should have a title that matches the apron and dash VINs. After you replace the part, assuming you use a patch, NOS or reman, save the vin plate section to prove it matched the dash VIN and title.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Sorry, for the people who assign value for all the parts being tagged with the original VIN, you area already screwed. It is both illegal and a fraud to pass off a different part as the original one. If you want to stick with the original VIN you're limited to what you can legitimately call a repair to the existing one.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Quote:
Quoting
flyingron
Sorry, for the people who assign value for all the parts being tagged with the original VIN, you area already screwed. It is both illegal and a fraud to pass off a different part as the original one. If you want to stick with the original VIN you're limited to what you can legitimately call a repair to the existing one.
And thats after reading the amendment to USC 18 section 511 that states I can do it?
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
There are two separate issues: (1) whether you can, as necessary, repair a vehicle even if it means that you'll have a part stamped with a VIN that does not match the vehicle's VIN, and (2) whether you can defraud future buyers by tampering with the replaced part or otherwise lying in order to trick them into believing that all VINs match.
You can repair a vehicle, even if the repair results in mismatched VINs.
As flyingron indicates, the fraud contemplated by (2) would be unlawful. It would be a fraud that the buyer could use to sue you for damages or rescission and, if you tamper with the VIN to cover up the change of parts, would be a criminal act under the New York statute you cited. The federal statute you quote will not excuse your act of fraud, and will not get you out of a prosecution under the New York statute. The exceptions listed for violation of the federal statute apply to the crime defined by that federal statute, not to state crimes.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
These are new parts with no VIN stamped in them. I'm the owner and it will be a race car only - trailered to and from events.
The VIN that will be put in the new parts will be the original VIN - semantics dictates that I am not changing that part of the car - just the surrounding metal. The VIN is stamped in two places and they will both match.
I'm not really sure how you can cover up a change of 40 year old metal to new metal.
There will no no tampering with the Vehicle Identification Number - the number that was originally assigned to my 1970 Mach 1 Mustang back in October 1969 will be the same one that is going on it.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
If you remove the VIN from the original part and put it on the new part, that is a violation the New York law. If you do so in order to defraud future purchasers, that's also grounds for them to sue you. This isn't complicated stuff, and you know it.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
I'm still lost between the state law and the federal law - Federal Preemption should come into effect here.
The state law says I can't do it at all and the Federal law says I can - repair it or remove it
Quote:
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary
for the repair;
Why am I not a person who is repairing such part and the removal is reasonably necessary?
I'm not trying to be awkward I'm just having a difficult time trying to fathom why the federal law says I can do it yet I still can't.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the VIN Number Stamped into It
You are making this out to be more complicated than need be. You do not need to apply for a new vin from the state, If the dash vin matches the title, swap the reman part and save the old one, with the original vin stamp. Attach the receipt from the replacement part, to the old part and stick it on a shelf until you sell the car or if you want to be ultra legal, in the trunk. The dash vin will still match the title and you will have the replaced apron, with the matching vin.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
why do you believe fed law preempts state law? You must comply with both or be in violation of whichever you do not comply with. If you don't want to have to comply with New York law, move out of New York so you can title the vehicle in the new state of residence.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
You don't understand preemption doctrine - there is no conflict between the laws (it's possible to comply with both) and the federal crime you list does not create a federal regulatory scheme that displaces state regulation within the same field. The mere fact that something isn't a crime under federal law does not make it a free-for-all under state law.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
You don't think there is a conflict? Isn't the state law telling me I can't remove it but the federal law says I can? I am very confused about this.
To prove USC 18 Section 511
Quote:
To prove a violation of Section 511, it must be established that: (1) the defendant knowingly removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered an identification number on a road motor vehicle (or component); (2) the identification number was one required by the United States Department of Transportation (DOT); and (3) such conduct was not done lawfully (e.g., defendant knew the vehicle was stolen and was trying to conceal its identity).
The point is that I am doing it lawfully according the last part of the paragraph below
Quote:
The evidence must establish an unlawful removal or falsification. The lawful removals can be found in 18 U.S.C. §§ 511(b) and 512(a)(3). Under subsection 511(b), these lawful exceptions do not apply if the person knows that the motor vehicle or part is stolen. Except for the area of "repair," these exceptions should cause no significant enforcement problem.
I have quoted 511(b) above
So - the federal law states I can remove it and the state law says I can't - and I don't know of any state where you can remove it.
Can you break it down for me - It's been a long week
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
No, there is no conflict. There is no preemption. If you want to break New York law and try to defraud a future buyer, nobody here can stop you, but don't delude yourself into thinking the fact that you're not also violating that federal law will get you off the hook.
You can stop asking the same question over and over again. The answer is not going to change.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Re-read the state law, then reconsider my advice.
Quote:
§ 170.70 Illegal possession of a vehicle identification number.
A person is guilty of illegal possession of a vehicle identification
number when:
(1) He knowingly possesses a vehicle identification number label,
sticker or plate which has been removed from the vehicle or vehicle part
to which such label, sticker or plate was affixed by the manufacturer in
accordance with 49 U.S.C. section 32101, et seq. and regulations
promulgated thereunder or in accordance with the provisions of the
vehicle and traffic law;
Remove and replace the panel, placing the removed panel with its intact vin number into the trunk or under the rear seat. It will still be in the vehicle AND the vin will still be on the part. Attach the receipt for the replacement panel, to substantiate it was replaced during repair.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Thank you for your reply. So you're saying everything is legal if I can prove I'm not going to sell the car in NY State - Thank you for saying that; it sets my mind at ease that the actual process isn't what is illegal it's the future sale.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
who said that?
Whether it is legal or not all depends on what, exactly, you do when you make the repair.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Can you expand on that? What do I need to do to make it legal?
The car will never set wheels on the roads in the USA - it is a race only car and will be raced primarily in Europe. I have a shipping receipt that shows the car will leave the USA in August.
- - - Updated - - -
If you mean go to the DMV and get a new VIN for it then nobody with a vintage car is going to do that. You have car that can be traced back to the factory and you can buy the actual build sheets for your car - everything is related to the VIN - you get a new VIN for it and there goes your vintage car - it's not longer traceable back to the factory - it no longer seems to be a 1970 Mach 1 Mustang/Ferrari 250GTO/Shelby Cobra Super Snake - it now seems to have a VIN that doesn't match up with any of those cars. How much is that car worth now?
The problem with vintage cars is that they are vintage - metal doesn't like to be vintage and it oxidizes - rusts - you need to replace panels - and the one that the VIN is on gets eaten up because it has rain/salt/road all over it for the past 40 years.
Are all these shops breaking the law because they have in their possession a panel that should have a VIN on it, but doesnt?
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbm=shop&sclient=psy-ab&q=1969+LH+mustang+shock+tower&oq=1969+LH+mustan g+shock+tower&gs_l=serp.3...21583.27654.5.27881.13 .9.4.0.0.0.118.868.6j3.9.0...0.0...1c.1.6.psy-ab.XNzR7HQn10U&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv .43828540,d.dmQ&fp=3081d42aaa009b97&biw=2553&bih=1 232
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
OMG, you are really getting to personally involved in this. Do as I said. Put the old panel in the trunk so you have the panel with the matching vin. When you get the car to its new home, pay someone to stamp the vin into the panel if you want.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Perhaps I'm wrong but your Mustang should have the VIN riveted to the dashboard and a door frame, as well as being stamped on the inner fender aprons. Losing one of these items is not a problem. Just install the new part without the VIN.
I don't understand why you want to go to all of this trouble over a race car. Parts get replaced on race cars routinely. No one expects matching VINs
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Quote:
Quoting
Reverb
Can you expand on that? What do I need to do to make it legal?
The car will never set wheels on the roads in the USA - it is a race only car and will be raced primarily in Europe. I have a shipping receipt that shows the car will leave the USA in August.
- - - Updated - - -
If you mean go to the DMV and get a new VIN for it then nobody with a vintage car is going to do that. You have car that can be traced back to the factory and you can buy the actual build sheets for your car - everything is related to the VIN - you get a new VIN for it and there goes your vintage car - it's not longer traceable back to the factory - it no longer seems to be a 1970 Mach 1 Mustang/Ferrari 250GTO/Shelby Cobra Super Snake - it now seems to have a VIN that doesn't match up with any of those cars. How much is that car worth now?
The problem with vintage cars is that they are vintage - metal doesn't like to be vintage and it oxidizes - rusts - you need to replace panels - and the one that the VIN is on gets eaten up because it has rain/salt/road all over it for the past 40 years.
Are all these shops breaking the law because they have in their possession a panel that should have a VIN on it, but doesnt?
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbm=sh...=2553&bih=1232
I am not aware of any state issuing new VINs for a car unless you are the manufacturer of the vehicle. The manufacturer has issued a VIN for your vehicle and that is what it will be known by until the title is released to the state due to it being salvaged. You have a VIN on your dash, right? You have a VIN on your door jamb, right? If you replace the section of vehicle that has a VIN on it with new metal that has no VIN, well, then you have a section of the vehicle that used to have a VIN and no longer does.