Repairing the Panel with the VIN Number Stamped into It
My question involves vehicle maintenance laws for the State of: NY
I'm not sure this is the correct section to post, but it's the closest I can find. Here's my question:
I'm renovating a 1970 Mustang and I need to replace the inner fender that the VIN is stamped into - a lot of people cut the old one out and weld it back into the new panel. I've been told this is illegal and will get me into trouble if it gets noticed by anyone inspecting the car. I have to apply for a new VIN from the DMV - which will devalue the car considerably and, if I ever sell it, nobody is going to want to buy a vintage ford that the VIN doesn't match up to the year 1970 and the various numbers that tell you it's a Mach 1 with a 351 Cleveland engine.
I've done some searching to get to the bottom of this and I have found that the State law conflicts the Federal law and I need some help deciphering things.
The NY state law states:
Quote:
§ 170.70 Illegal possession of a vehicle identification number.
A person is guilty of illegal possession of a vehicle identification
number when:
(1) He knowingly possesses a vehicle identification number label,
sticker or plate which has been removed from the vehicle or vehicle part
to which such label, sticker or plate was affixed by the manufacturer in
accordance with 49 U.S.C. section 32101, et seq. and regulations
promulgated thereunder or in accordance with the provisions of the
vehicle and traffic law; or
(2) He knowingly possesses a vehicle or vehicle part to which is
attached a vehicle identification number label, sticker or plate or on
which is stamped or embossed a vehicle identification number which has
been destroyed, covered, defaced, altered or otherwise changed, or a
vehicle or vehicle part from which a vehicle identification number
label, sticker or plate has been removed, which label, sticker or plate
was affixed in accordance with 49 U.S.C. section 32101, et seq. or
regulations promulgated thereunder, except when he has complied with the
provisions of the vehicle and traffic law and regulations promulgated
thereunder; or
(3) He knowingly possesses a vehicle, or part of a vehicle to which by
law or regulation must be attached a vehicle identification number,
either (a) with a vehicle identification number label, sticker, or plate
which was not affixed by the manufacturer in accordance with 49 U.S.C.
section 32101, et seq. or regulations promulgated thereunder, or in
accordance with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law or
regulations promulgated thereunder, or (b) on which is affixed, stamped
or embossed a vehicle identification number which was not affixed,
stamped or embossed by the manufacturer, or in accordance with 49 U.S.C.
section 32101, et seq. or regulations promulgated thereunder or in
accordance with the provisions of the vehicle and traffic law or
regulations promulgated thereunder.
Illegal possession of a vehicle identification number is a class E
felony.
So thats me in jail and fined for some considerable money if I plan to do it - except - WAIT!!
18 USC Sec. 511 - which was amended in 2011 - says (and I'll make this one shorter)
Quote:
(a) A person who -
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal
or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a
removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person
specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person
knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are -
...
Quote:
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary
for the repair;
or
Quote:
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters
a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the
Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner
of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate,
tamper with or alter the decal or device by -
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
So that me TWICE - i'm both the owner (so i can removed it) and I'm repairing the panel that needs replacing (so I can remove and put it back)
HELP!
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Why do you need to apply for a new VIN? There should be a VIN plate on the dash and you should have a title that matches the apron and dash VINs. After you replace the part, assuming you use a patch, NOS or reman, save the vin plate section to prove it matched the dash VIN and title.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Sorry, for the people who assign value for all the parts being tagged with the original VIN, you area already screwed. It is both illegal and a fraud to pass off a different part as the original one. If you want to stick with the original VIN you're limited to what you can legitimately call a repair to the existing one.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
Quote:
Quoting
flyingron
Sorry, for the people who assign value for all the parts being tagged with the original VIN, you area already screwed. It is both illegal and a fraud to pass off a different part as the original one. If you want to stick with the original VIN you're limited to what you can legitimately call a repair to the existing one.
And thats after reading the amendment to USC 18 section 511 that states I can do it?
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
There are two separate issues: (1) whether you can, as necessary, repair a vehicle even if it means that you'll have a part stamped with a VIN that does not match the vehicle's VIN, and (2) whether you can defraud future buyers by tampering with the replaced part or otherwise lying in order to trick them into believing that all VINs match.
You can repair a vehicle, even if the repair results in mismatched VINs.
As flyingron indicates, the fraud contemplated by (2) would be unlawful. It would be a fraud that the buyer could use to sue you for damages or rescission and, if you tamper with the VIN to cover up the change of parts, would be a criminal act under the New York statute you cited. The federal statute you quote will not excuse your act of fraud, and will not get you out of a prosecution under the New York statute. The exceptions listed for violation of the federal statute apply to the crime defined by that federal statute, not to state crimes.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
These are new parts with no VIN stamped in them. I'm the owner and it will be a race car only - trailered to and from events.
The VIN that will be put in the new parts will be the original VIN - semantics dictates that I am not changing that part of the car - just the surrounding metal. The VIN is stamped in two places and they will both match.
I'm not really sure how you can cover up a change of 40 year old metal to new metal.
There will no no tampering with the Vehicle Identification Number - the number that was originally assigned to my 1970 Mach 1 Mustang back in October 1969 will be the same one that is going on it.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
If you remove the VIN from the original part and put it on the new part, that is a violation the New York law. If you do so in order to defraud future purchasers, that's also grounds for them to sue you. This isn't complicated stuff, and you know it.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
I'm still lost between the state law and the federal law - Federal Preemption should come into effect here.
The state law says I can't do it at all and the Federal law says I can - repair it or remove it
Quote:
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary
for the repair;
Why am I not a person who is repairing such part and the removal is reasonably necessary?
I'm not trying to be awkward I'm just having a difficult time trying to fathom why the federal law says I can do it yet I still can't.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the VIN Number Stamped into It
You are making this out to be more complicated than need be. You do not need to apply for a new vin from the state, If the dash vin matches the title, swap the reman part and save the old one, with the original vin stamp. Attach the receipt from the replacement part, to the old part and stick it on a shelf until you sell the car or if you want to be ultra legal, in the trunk. The dash vin will still match the title and you will have the replaced apron, with the matching vin.
Re: Repairing the Panel with the Vin Number Stamped into It
why do you believe fed law preempts state law? You must comply with both or be in violation of whichever you do not comply with. If you don't want to have to comply with New York law, move out of New York so you can title the vehicle in the new state of residence.