My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California.
So this is what happened:
- I was on the outermost right lane going straight (passing a green light) when I had to suddenly stop at the crosswalk as there was a bus in front of me (basically I was right next to the man in the picture). I tried changing lanes and move to the left but couldn't as there were stil cars driving by, so I stopped for about 30 seconds behind the bus. At this time on, there were no cars behind me and so the only cars in the lane were the bus and my car. The green light eventually turned red, the bus eventually left and I was on my way until a cop in his motorbike flagged me down and cited me for a gridlock. The cop's vantage point was next to the yellow fire hydrant in the picture.
Can someone tell me if I should present what happened for my written declaration, or just state that I am not guilty so as to not have the judge use my own facts against me in the future, assuming that the judge does not dismiss my case and I will do a trial de novo?
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui...754f&zw&atsh=1
Gridlock Violation After Stopping Behind a Bus
Printable View
-
02-07-2013, 11:37 PMbtltneaGridlock Violation After Stopping Behind a Bus
-
02-08-2013, 04:36 AMThat GuyRe: Gridlock Violation: Behind a Bus
Bad link... It appears you posted a link to a Gmail attachment instead of some sort of image that can be viewed by anyone.
That is not descriptive of a gridlock violation. Your description there is for a vehicle that is traveling in the same direction as you are. Your are not under any obligation to clear the intersection for vehicles that are behind you. Instead, a gridlock violation occurs as follows:Quote:
Quoting btltnea
- You enter the intersection but is unable to clear it (i.e. unable to exit it on the other side) before your light turns red;
- As your light turns red and the signal for cross traffic (traffic which typically runs perpendicular to your direction of travel) turns green, you are still unable to exit the intersection,
- As cross traffic is facing a green signal at this time, vehicles in that/those lanes are unable to proceed through since your vehicle is blocking (or gridlocking) the intersection.
- Even if only part of your vehicle remains inside the intersection, and cross traffic is either unable to or forced to go around you, you can be considered in violation.
Clearly, you've left out the third and possibly your best option in this case. I think you'd be better off taking traffic school in hopes you'll learn something new... Your post offers good reason as to why you'd have great potential of doing so; 8 hours that will certainly be full of opportunity after the other!Quote:
Quoting btltnea
-
02-08-2013, 10:16 AMHomeAgain123Re: Gridlock Violation: Behind a Bus
I don't understand. Why would you tell the OP that he is not guilty and the tell him that his best option is to plead guilty and take traffic school. This makes no sense at all.
-
02-08-2013, 02:28 PMThat GuyRe: Gridlock Violation: Behind a BusI'm sorry to hear that!Quote:
Quoting HomeAgain123
Which part of my post was it that gave you the impression that I was indicating he is "not guilty"?Quote:
Quoting HomeAgain123
His guilt or innocence isn't up to me. It is up to the judge who will hear/read his case subsequent to the officer's testimony. We don't even know if he saw whether he was blocking cross traffic from proceeding through the intersection. But in his description of being over the crosswalk and possibly into the intersection for 30 seconds, the likelihood is he WAS blocking traffic, otherwise, why would the officer motion him to stop and issue him a citation if he was not blocking traffic!
Now, he can deny that all he wants, but I can recite the majority of that the officer will testify to with my eyes closed and one hand tied behind my back! And no, I'm not a rocket scientist.
And I'm still not saying he's "guilty" or "not guilty"! -
02-08-2013, 02:49 PMHomeAgain123Re: Gridlock Violation: Behind a Bus
Ok... If you want to split hairs, I agree. You did not say that he was guilty or not guilty. But you did go through extensive effort to demonstrate that the op's version of what happened did NOT constitute a violation. Then, by recommending that he take traffic school, you DID tell him to plead guilty (even if you didn't specifically say he was guilty).
-
02-08-2013, 03:05 PMbtltneaRe: Gridlock Violation: Behind a Bus
Hi,
I'm sorry, here is the actual screenshot of the area:
http://i.imgur.com/vmv2p86.jpg
I didn't think I was blocking the intersection as there were no pedestrians. I also couldn't turn into the other lane because other cars were zooming by after they saw my car was stopped behind a bus and so had to change lanes pretty quickly.
Also, when the light turned red and the others green, there was still a considerable amount of space next to me for those turning left to turn into (although that wasn't necessary as they all had to yield to opposing traffic that was going straight).
Overall, I believe that I wasn't blocking traffic as there was no traffic and I was basically forced to stay behind the bus for fear of turning too slowly and hitting an incoming car.
I also had a passenger next to me who witnessed everything.
Is there a way for the judge to dismiss my case? -
02-08-2013, 04:00 PMThat GuyRe: Gridlock Violation: Behind a BusMuch better, thanks!Quote:
Quoting btltnea
You were blocking the crosswalk, but that is not what you were cited for if you were cited for 22526. You were cited for having at least a part of your car blocking the movement of traffic (as best as I can describe it) headed out from the screen...Quote:
Quoting btltnea
While I don't know what kind of vehicle you were in, or how far back it would have been sitting, it would have been pretty easy for you or your passenger to look to your right to determine whether you were in the way of traffic or not. I mean, you were there for approximately 30 seconds... Is it conceivable that you didn't look?
OK, so now we know that if traffic turning left and possibly ending up next to you had to yield the right of way to traffic moving out of the screen, and depending on the location of how far your car was sitting to the right of the crosswalk, we now know there was likely traffic that was blocked by your car.Quote:
Quoting btltnea
Additionally, in your original post, you stated that the officer was next to the yellow hydrant, correct? And so if you were blocking anyone at all, you were in fact blocking the officer's forward movement...
Problem is, "I didn't think I was blocking the intersection" and "I believe that I wasn't blocking traffic" are not valid defenses. Again, the officer cited you for 22526, what do you think he will testify to and who do you think the judge is going to believe?Quote:
Quoting btltnea
Uhm.... Earlier you posted:Quote:
Quoting btltnea
So make up your mind. Was their traffic or was there no traffic?Quote:
Quoting btltnea
Was the officer by the hydrant or was he not by the hydrant?
Unfortunately, the law states you should not have been behind the bus because by being there, you were likely gridlocking the intersection if there was traffic that had to wait or drive around you to get through!Quote:
Quoting btltnea
And let me guess, your witness/passenger will testify that you were not blocking traffic.Quote:
Quoting btltnea
Did I guess right?
Unfortunately, no!Quote:
Quoting btltnea
Here is the related code section:
22526.
(a) Notwithstanding any official traffic control signal indication to proceed, a driver of a vehicle shall not enter an intersection or marked crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or marked crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle driven without obstructing the through passage of vehicles from either side.
(b) A driver of a vehicle which is making a turn at an intersection who is facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal shall not enter the intersection or marked crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or marked crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle driven without obstructing the through passage of vehicles from either side.
(c) A driver of a vehicle shall not enter a railroad or rail transit crossing, notwithstanding any official traffic control device or signal indication to proceed, unless there is sufficient undercarriage clearance to cross the intersection without obstructing the through passage of a railway vehicle, including, but not limited to, a train, trolley, or city transit vehicle.
(d) A driver of a vehicle shall not enter a railroad or rail transit crossing, notwithstanding any official traffic control device or signal indication to proceed, unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the railroad or rail transit crossing to accommodate the vehicle driven and any railway vehicle, including, but not limited to, a train, trolley, or city transit vehicle.
(e) A local authority may post appropriate signs at the entrance to intersections indicating the prohibition in subdivisions (a), (b), and (c).
(f) A violation of this section is not a violation of a law relating to the safe operation of vehicles and is the following:
(1) A stopping violation when a notice to appear has been issued by a peace officer described in Section 830.1, 830.2, or 830.33 of the Penal Code.
(2) A parking violation when a notice of parking violation is issued by a person, other than a peace officer described in paragraph (1), who is authorized to enforce parking statutes and regulations.
(g) This section shall be known and may be cited as the Anti-Gridlock Act of 1987.
I've underlined the relevant sections.
It means that instead of following the bus through the intersection, you should wait on the other side of the intersection (the side to the right of the screen) until you can be sure that there is enough room for you to completely fit the entire length of your vehicle to the left of the crosswalk. If in the process of driving across the intersection you happen to get stuck and your vehicle is in the way of traffic that would be moving out of the picture, you are in violation and can get cited in two ways. (1) a police officer can cite you for the violation, and you'd be required to appear in court or simply pay the fine and be done. Since it is not a moving violation it carries zero violation points and is not eligible for traffic school. Or (2) you can get cited by parking enforcement and the City of L A as well as West Hollywood are notorious for issuing these citations by mail to drivers who get trapped during rush hour traffic through Hollywood or West Hollywood. -
02-08-2013, 05:37 PMbtltneaRe: Gridlock Violation: Behind a Bus
I definitely did look to my left and to my back.
When you say 'traffic', do you mean to say that there were cars behind me who were heading in the same direction as me? Because yes, there were cars behind me when I came to a stop behind the bus, but they were able to maneuver their cars to the left.
As for when the light (on my lane) turned red and the opposite lanes turned green, there was no traffic because those that wanted to turn left onto my lane couldn't regardless of whether I was there or not since every car turning left on that street had to yield to cars going straight.
There was no traffic because there was no incoming cars in any direction. And the officer was not turning right (there were no sign signals from him), nor was I obstructing his way at all since his motorbike was behind the white crosswalk line (literally next to the yellow fire hydrant) while the back of my car reached only at the midline of the crosswalk.
And I understand that the law states that I'm not supposed to enter a crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on the other side. However, it was literally a split-second decision as I drove pass the green light. And how can I possibly wait on the other side of the crosswalk when the decision to cross the intersection was as automatic as me putting on my brakes when I saw the bus stop?
I mean, just imagine driving pass the intersection and having already made the decision to go forward but then having to stop immediately when you realize that the person in front of you has stopped, and having no other choice but to stay in your current position as there are no other viable alternatives *unless a car accident was something you'd always wanted to end your day with*.
All my actions were a reaction to a set of existing circumstances, and given those circumstances, how can a violation exist that do not take into account the split-second decisions drivers make on a day-to-day basis? -
02-09-2013, 03:38 AMThat GuyRe: Gridlock Violation: Behind a BusI didn't ask you if you looked left, I asked you if you or your passenger looked to the RIGHT. Come on now...Quote:
Quoting btltnea
But it really doesn't matter what you think you saw or believe you saw, because apparently the citing officer is under the impression that you were blocking the intersection. I'm not making this up, I'm simply making a logical conclusion to him issuing you a citation.
No, I don't mean traffic behind you. And why are we playing this charades game I don't know... I don't know if you're trying to keep the street names confidential and if so, I don't know why... Its not like someone is going to recognize you as... "hey, you're the one who got cited for gridlock"... So here it goes...Quote:
Quoting btltnea
You appear to be headed SOUTHBOUND on S. Vermont Ave. When your light turned Red and the light for cross traffic (traffic facing Eastbound/Westbound on W. Jefferson Blvd) turned green, you were likely at least partially blocking the intersection and accordingly, traffic that is facing Eastbound on Jefferson Blvd was unable to move forward or had to move around you to get through across the intersection and Eastbound from S Vermont Avenue.
Again, none of this information was provided by you, instead I am simply assuming this is what happened based on your statement that you were in this position and at this location behind a bus and remained there for approximately 30 seconds.
Now, in your post # 6 above, you stated the following:
But you immediately follow that up with:Quote:
Quoting btltnea
OK, so why is it that at this point in time, and since there was "considerable amount of space next to you", why is it that you did not drive around the bus and continued Southbound on S. Vermont Ave? Instead, you sat there waiting for the bus to move but also presumably still blocking cross traffic that is facing Eastbound on W Jefferson Blvd from being able to move across the intersection and on their was Eastbound?Quote:
Quoting btltnea
How can you say that “there was no traffic” when in fact “THIS TRAFFIC” had to wait for THAT TRAFFIC?Quote:
Quoting btltnea
Just to make sure you're not still under the same erroneous impression that you had when you first started this thread, I will clarify AGAIN:
- No one is claiming that you had any vehicles behind you that were headed in the same direction as you.
- Even if you did have vehicles behind you who were unable to move because of your presence at that location, that scenario is not considered a violation of 22526 and you could not have been cited for that. After all we know that did not happen.
- Also, when someone mentions the term "traffic", he/she is not necessarily only referring to vehicles that maybe behind you and headed in the same direction as you, or cars that are next to you and are headed in the same direction as you. The term "traffic" could be any vehicle, anywhere, behind you, next to you, in front of you, moving towards you or away from you one foot away or a block away from you... Traffic is made up of vehicles that are moving.
- The term "cross traffic" refers to traffic that you are passing have passed or will soon be passing as you cross an intersection or as they cross an intersection. So in your situation, and while you are driving Southbound on S. Vermont Ave, "cross traffic" as far as you're concerned is traffic that is moving Eastbound or Westbound on W Jefferson Blvd.
- For purposes of this citation that you received:
HE, meaning the officer, alleges that as you were driving southbound on S Vermont Ave, and after your light turned red, that you were still positioned somewhere within the intersection, and your position there was blocking the movement of cross traffic that is facing Eastbound on Jefferson from moving forward. - YOU, are denying that saying "no, you did not block anyone's movement".
- While I, don't really care either way and this will not affect me in any way but I am simply telling you that if you plead "not guilty" and either submit a TBD and/or choose a court trial, the officer will obviously testify that he cited you for 22526 because you were in a position behind the bus where you were blocking traffic as is prohibited by 22526.
- YOU can deny it all you want but the judge is not likely to believe you instead the odds are he will believe the officer. If you still feel you have a legitimate chance and you want to contest it, by all means, fight it...
- I am not stopping you. Instead, I urge you to contest it and hope for the best!
Actually, there was traffic, I just explained it in great detail, yet if this is still your contention, then we really have very little to discuss.Quote:
Quoting btltnea
So if he was not moving, he was not obstructed by your car, then explain to us why he pulled you over and cited you?Quote:
Quoting btltnea
And fact is, there was not enough room for you on the other side, correct? The law clearly stats that you must ensure that there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection (other side of the crosswalk in this case) to accommodate your vehicle driven without obstructing the through passage of vehicles headed Eastbound on W Jefferson Blvd in this case.Quote:
Quoting btltnea
There is no however... The way to go about this if you are following a bus or several cars in slow traffic is to try and look ahead of them to see if the next block is congested then when you are approaching the intersection and before you enter it, stop before the crosswalk line, wait until the car in front of you makes it all the way through the intersection, past the crosswalk ion the other side. When you can be sure there is sufficient room for you to enter and exit the intersection before the light turns red, then you can proceed, if not, stay where you are until the next light cycle. And don't jump the gun and assume that just because he's close to exiting the intersection that you can go... Wait until he's out, and until he's moving forward or if you can see the traffic in front of him is moving, then you can proceed.Quote:
Quoting btltnea
Also, almost all pedestrian signals in L A have timers on them now, which makes it easy to guesstimate when the light is going to turn red... If the countdown has started and its at 9 or less seconds, you're taking a big risk entering the intersection if there isn't enough room on the other side.
You can be as stubborn as you want, you can try and justify your being in the intersection and getting stuck there, if you get cited, you'll be in the same position you are in now. The alternative is that you can understand that there is no justification or excuse for getting stuck in the intersection except that you were either distracted or not paying attention... This is not a new law or as recent experiment. This law was enacted 26 years ago... The only way to avoid a stack of tickets if your regular commute takes you through city streets that do get congested, is to play it safe, simply do not follow the car in front of you but be patient, be cautious, don't guess and wait until you're sure.Quote:
Quoting btltnea
You shouldn't force yourself to make split second decisions. Don't wait until you find yourself having to react, be proactive. Don't put yourself in a position where you're panicking to try and force yourself out of the intersection against drivers who are zooming by you; plan your movement accordingly and don't enter the intersection until you are certain there is enough room for you to exit on the other side, its the law!Quote:
Quoting btltnea
- No one is claiming that you had any vehicles behind you that were headed in the same direction as you.
-
02-09-2013, 11:53 AMlostintimeRe: Gridlock Violation: Behind a BusSort of like going to Pizza hut and asking for a hamburger.Quote:
Quoting HomeAgain123