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What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
My question involves unemployment benefits for the state of: California
Hello All,
Back in November I applied for Unemployment after I quit my job. I explained the situation to the EDD rep and week later I received my approval form, a few days after that I received a notice advising me that I am ineligible to received unemployment benefits do to a disqualifying act of: Voluntarily quitting due to new conditions of work imposed by the employer without seeking all reasonable resolutions first. It also went on to state that I could have the disqualifying act removed if I returned to work and earned 3.5x my week benefit amount, and I could then be eligible for UI benefits...which makes no sense to me at all.
This is what happened (If you don't want to read the whole thing, skip to the bottom bolded points of interests):
From April-September 2012, I was a supervisor of this department where there was manager above me who was complete out of control, unprofessional, and down completely not competent in leading the team. I'm not saying all of this to make her look bad, it is the absolute fact. The things that went on in my department by our manager, no one else knew about, because if they did, it would be a high profile legal issue. However, my team were scared for their jobs, and wanted better leadership. I agree with them as well, and we all sent COUNTLESS emails, of which I have copies of, borderline begging HR for a resolution to having a manager whose behavior was manic and dangerous. All of those emails, sent from 6+ people, were never answered. No changes or resolutions were implemented. Towards the end of September we all were stressed out to the max, full of anxiety, and walked around on egg shells around HR as well as our manager because we felt that there was no one we could trust or that would help. Me being the supervisor of my team, I carried the brunt of the stress and anxiety because I felt like there was nothing I could do to help/save these people.
Well, you're probably wondering why this manager was never fired right? She "allegedly" (but confirmed vocally to everyone on the team on SEVERAL occasions), was sleep with the COO, who, coincidentally hired a new HR manager back in January who happened to be 25+ year friend of his. Long story short, some illegal money laundering and things of that nature were brought to the attention of the CEO, who lived on the east coast and apparently trusted his COO too much, and the CEO fired a bunch of VPs and Executives and then eliminated our positions and our department. We had the option of quitting or being reassigned. Because I wanted to keep my job and NOT be unemployed I interviewed with all the managers of other departments that had openings to decide which department would be the best fit. None of them were a good fit because their job duties were completely different from what we did and required a different skill set that I did not fully understand. One manager in particular made a bunch of promises to us about how the transition would be easy and there would be a lot of training would be available. So we all decided to switch go to that department. I took a week off to de-stress and prepare myself for my new role in the company.
When I came back, Oct 7 the job was horrendous! There was insufficient training, and financial concepts that I did not understand at all. We had 6 managers running around the floor yelling at us to get on the phone and/or to wrap up a call so we can take another one. The people I talked to on the phone would yell at me, the managers would yell at me, the new coworker I sat beside would, on a weekly basis, drop her phone and run out of the office crying. I couldn't take it. What we experienced before this, in my department, was no where near the amount of stress, anxiety, pressure, and fear that we now experienced. The managers all said, "oh we'll give you more training," or "you'll just have to get use to it this is how it is," or "You guys had it easy down there now you get to feel what it's like to actually do work!" "You get a hell of a lot more than other reps on your team, so you are expected to do more work than they are" (That last one came straight from the VP of HR, the one who doesn't return emails/pleas for help).
At this point, the stress, anxiety, and depression got so bad that it started affecting my attendance. I would be so exhausted from running on adrenaline and fear all day that I would go to bed and oversleep. My attendance record at the company was always spotless, hence the reason I earned a promotion within my first 6 months, along with my willingness to go above and beyond for the company. At this time, I had weeks of vacation time saved up because I never took a day off, nor did I ever miss a day or was more than 5 minutes late, ever! Now I started being 2 hours late, 3 hours late. I started getting sick, yet I still came in because they would threaten us with impending termination if we ever called out. I needed to do something because I did not want to lose my job, so I approach the managers, and asked them to give me a part time schedule, and that I would cover whatever hours they wanted me to cover, just as long as it wasn't more that 32 hours a week..I needed a break..I couldn't sit there all day ever day constantly being yelled at and threatened by both management and the customers on the phone. They reluctantly agreed to give me part time hours, more out of an feign attempt to appear like they cared, but not before threatening me that a full time position may not be available in the future and part time employees are usually "the first to go."
I began my part time hours Nov 1st, on Nov 11th, after still not receiving the additional training I needed and requested, and not understanding the other secondary training information they provided (A large book of terms and financial information that was foreign to me) and because the night before I became borderline suicidal, I decided to quit. I filed for unemployment a few days later.
My points of interests that I would like to make are:
- My conditions of employment had not changed, my department and position were terminated.
- All reasonable resolutions to this "change in conditions" were explored in depth via interviews with all other departments and additional training requested.
- My department had assisted this department with their phone calls when they would become busy, on a once a month (for 2-3 days) basis, but we were limited in what we assisted the customers with, since we were never fully trained in their specialty, so it was all basic level information and assistance that we provided. Anything we did not understand, we would transfer back up to their department.
- It is not my problem, nor my fault, that I, previously being a supervisor, was being paid more an hour when I transitioned into a Level 1 Representative, than the ones who started out and are still currently Level 1 Representatives. I do not believe it is fair to expect me to do more work than everyone else, especially when I'm in a new environment, doing a job I am not use to doing, with insufficient training, just because I get paid more.
- Also, a coworker of mine, who went on maternity leave a few weeks before our department was shut down, came back, she informed me that the VP of HR advised her that there were positions available in other departments, but she declined them, but she is in fact receiving unemployment.
I have appealed their decision and we have a hearing scheduled in a couple of weeks. Given your expertise, how are my chances looking at this point? I plan to give a little back story as well as emphasize on those points of interest. I don't know if this hearing can have witnesses, as I haven't received all the info from them regarding the hearing, but I have 3 that I can bring with me who will attest to these facts. What are your thoughts?
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
You quit, so the burden of proof is on you.
However, I can't tell what theory you're working under to get benefits. I can't tell if you want this to be about a change in conditions, if you are trying to make this a medical quit, or if this is about having a bad boss.
Seriously, if you were pretty sure you'd get fired if you'd called in sick, that is exactly what you should have done because calling in sick once or twice or taking your vacation and getting fired would not have risen to the level of misconduct.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
What exactly am I going to have to proof? The "theory" I'm working under to get benefits is what the EDD has deemed to be the only reason they denied my claim, which is: "I left without seeking all possible resolutions before I quit, due to the change in working conditions." After interviewing with all managers of other departments that had open positions, as well as seeking part time hours to cope with the with the fact that this job was NOT what I was hired to do, nor was skilled enough to do, there were no other possible resolutions to seek. My "working conditions were not changed", my position, and my department, was eliminated, bottom line. My goal is to rely on the facts and show that I did everything possibly to keep a job at this company and unfortunately, due to no fault of my own, my efforts were unsuccessful. I will also add the fact that the woman in my department who returned from maternity leave, did not accept a position, nor seek "any reasonable resolutions" and was granted unemployment benefits, so there is no reason, that I can see, that I would not, and should not, be granted benefits as well.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
"working conditions were not changed," you say this, but changed working conditions IS a valid reason. If you have a stack of emails showing that you tried to "adjust your grievance" after "my position, and my department, was eliminated," then you want to show that you did try to fix things, but don't say, "working conditions were not changed," at your hearing.
The extreme example that people understand is that you can't be the accounting supervisor, and then told the next day that you'll be cleaning the toilets from here on out. It's equivalent to being fired from your job (qualifying separation), and then refusing to accept another job that you hope is adjudicated as an unsuitable position in light of your length of unemployment, wages, skills and training from recent previous employment.
Also, talk to the coworker that got UI what she said on her paperwork for not returning from medical leave. It's possible she put that she was discharged, and the employer didn't respond, and she didn't get UI because she had all the right words for quitting, but because the employer didn't say anything to complicate her claim. Also, what happened to her is usually poopooed by the ALJs by saying, "we're talking about you, not her."
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
Thank you the tip. I will definitely keep that in mind.
Title 22, Section 1256-3(c) provides:
Prior to leaving work, the claimant has a duty to attempt to preserve the employment relationship. Failure to do so negates what would otherwise constitute good cause.
I do in fact have copies of emails that I sent to my direct manager regarding my situation, asking for more training, telling him I didn't fully understand all the financial stuff that I had to explain, asking for a change in hours from full time to part time, advising them that the environment and workload was too stressful and was giving me severe anxiety.
The reason I brought up that coworker is because it states under "good cause": The claimant must act as would a reasonable person under the same circumstances. As pointed out in Zorrero v. CUIAB, (47 Cal. App.3d 434, 1975):
[T]he quitting must be for such a cause as would reasonably motivate in a similar situation the average able-bodied and qualified worker to give up his or her employment with its certain wage rewards in order to enter the ranks of the . . . unemployed
Not including the coworker who came back from maternity leave, there were 4 of us that were left in the department, at the time "our working conditions changed" who were reassigned to this particular department. As of today, there is only 1 left. We all had the same issues with the department, the lack of training, the stressful environment, lack of response and/or outright lies from management, etc. We all interviewed with different departments and were promised that we would be given extensive training to help us be successful in this department. One girl quit the first day we moved up there because apparently the manager promised her internet access and other things to move up there and it did not happen, I quit about a month later after doing everything possible to make it work, and another woman quit 2 weeks after I did, and she did all the things I did, except for request the change in hours. These two are the "witnesses" I said I could bring to attest to these facts as they were there and they prove: "...such a cause as would reasonably motivate in a similar situation the average able-bodied and qualified worker to give up his or her employment with its certain wage rewards in order to enter the ranks of the unemployed."
What are your thoughts?
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
You're using the wrong section. You want to use this one: http://www.edd.ca.gov/uibdg/Voluntar...0.htm#Transfer
There are more loop holes to work with that will allow you to get benefits.
You say you were a supervisor in your old job, but this new one sounds like you were a grunt. The system recognizes greed. If your salary grade and promotional prospects were compromised by this new postion, then that is the kind of stuff where you want to hang your hat.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
Yep that will work. I was transferred from a Supervisor to a Level 1 representative..which is 3 bumps lower. My salary level was not compromised, as they kept it the same but my promotional prospects where compromised because of the fact that I was transferred to a department that I had insufficient training or skill to be promoted. They would not allow me to be a supervisor in that department because I was not skilled to successfully supervise a team doing that type of work.
Question..does the ALJ rule on a decision that day or weeks later? Also..who will be in present at the hearing..some people have told me it will be a lawyer or some other person speaking on behave of the company, another person told me it will someone from EDD speaking on behalf of EDD on why they denied my claim.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
You keep discounting things that count. While they may not have cut your pay rate, you might be maxed out in your current pay range, and you won't get a raise for the next 10 years. Be more careful about how you say things. Also, I'm just not so sure that "insufficient training or skill to be promoted," is going to get the ALJ to see that you were demoted plain and simple.
In all probability, no one from your company is going to show up, and if some one does, I doubt it's going to be an attorney. They'll send your supervisor or someone from HR. The company's testimony will amount to, "the claimant should be denied because she voluntarily quit." No one from EDD is going to come in this particular type of case.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
Ahhh. Ok I see what you mean. My pay was maxed out actually. The VP of HR told us when we were reassigned that we would not be getting any raises from here on out considering we were all ready getting paid more than everyone else. Our department was literally, and legally, a separate business entity within the company, where our pay scale and promotional prospects were completely different. Thank you so much for your help. Does the ALJ make an immediately decision that day?
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
It's my opinion, that they know right then and there, but in my two hearings with an ALJ, and from hearsay from others, the ALJ's usually say very nicely, "You'll receive my decision by mail within 10 days. If you disagree with my decision, you'll be able to follow the the instructions and file an appeal."
I was always blindedsided by the decision because I just couldn't believe the direction they went, so you'll have no clue when you get done whether you won or lost.
I don't know if you read any of my other threads, but I quit when my employer substantially changed my working conditions, and while it wasn't an inordinate amount of work, it was a long wait to progress to each step (6 to 8 weeks). A year in total before I saw my first check. My hours were cut and I lost my health insurance. I never got benefits from either tribunal ALJ. I only ever won at the board of review because the ALJs applied the wrong regulations.
The deputy said I quit because my hours were reduced which is disqualifying. The first ALJ said that because my wages weren't cut below the minimum wage, that i wasn't eligible. The board of review granted a new hearing because the ALJ blocked testimony to establish a value for my health insurance and because she failed to apply the correct "refusal of work" regulations. The second ALJ went off on her own ignoring the instructions from the broad of review and said that health insurance wasn't wages and since none of my duties changed that no substantial change in my employment took place. A single board of review ALJ agreed that health insurance wasn't wages, but ignored the substantial change issue completely. Neither tribunal ALJ was asking the right questions for me for me to make my case. I pretty much had to take control of the hearing to get my evidence and testimony on the record, and both of them were offended. However, had I not got the evidence into the record, I'd have failed at the board of review. I knew why I was eligible, and I could prove it.
The final analysis from a board of review panel of three judges was a split decision that the company paid portion of my health insurance premium represented 22.9% of my total compensation, and was a substantial change. The elimination of it was a nondisqualifying discharge because the employer failed to prove or even suggest there was any misconduct. That rather than quitting, I actually refused an offer of new work the following day, and that a 22.9% reduction in compensation was unsuitable because it was substantially less favorable than what is available in the locality.
So what I'm getting at is that you can be right, but it can take a long time to get your benefits, and money talks. I think some people feel that they'd sound greedy if they quit over money. The system recognizes it, and it's much easier for things to be plainly seen when you can attach a dollar value to an item to put it in perspective. So if you used to get 4% raises, and now you won't, that is something you need to bring up, because I doubt the ALJ will prompt you or help you make your case.
So even if you lose, if they apply the wrong theory you can still appeal to the board of review. What you need to do is really focus on what direction you want to go.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
Gotcha. I think I will emphasize the fact that my transfer was a demotion, as well as the nature of the work not being compatible. My department and job was product development, sales, and retention. Not customer service, financial analysis, or tech support, which is what I was now responsible for doing. I'm wondering though, since I'm the one who chose to go to that department, and they told me that I wouldn't be getting any more raises before I made my decision, wouldn't that mean I accepted my demotion and lack of promotional benefits by accepting the transfer, and therefore would not be able to use that a good cause for quitting? The only reason I accepted the transfer was in an attempt to preserve the employment relationship. The only reason I chose to go to that department is because even though it wasn't anywhere near the nature of work that I did previously, it wasn't as far fetched as all the other techie related departments that were in the company.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
You make a good point, but just because you went there doesn't always mean you accepted it. If an employee hangs around a while after an adverse change while trying to "adjust their grievance," then you can negate the presumption that you accepted it.
Now, let's work on your wording. Did you chose to go to that department or did they say, "this is all we have. Take it or leave it."? or maybe "this is what's open. Take your pick."? Neither option suggests that you voluntarily made the move. When you use the word "chose," it can come across that you were just dying to get bumped from your job and just couldn't wait to get yelled at by customers on the phone, and I just don't believe that is what you mean.
Did you really want to make this your new career, or was it to buy some time to try to get your former duties and title back in another area of the company by "adjusting your grievance"?
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
The VP of HR stated "We would like to keep you all on board with the company we have other positions in the company, I would suggest you use your remaining time to look into other departments, as there are open positions available that would would like to fill in house before we start recruiting, or your can quit." I did not want to make this my new career, I was told another manager that some of our products that we were developing in my department were still going to move forward, so I was trying to continue the employment relationship in hopes that I would be able to take charge of those products, as I was doing before the transfer/adjusting my grievance.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
What do you think would have happened if you hadn't applied for any internal positions?
I suspect that the, "or you can quit," statement wasn't exactly accurate.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
I thought if I hadn't applied to a department, I would be transferred involuntarily to one or would be forced to quit. He made it pretty clear that transfer or voluntarily quitting were our only options.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
You should get the folder that has your paperwork in it for the appeal. It's usually ready before your hearing, and they give you a copy for free. You should get that to see what all your employer submitted.
I'm sort of surprised that you were held to an "all available options" standard. Your job was eliminated, they moved you into the bowels of the operation, and after complaints to restore yourself to your former status, it become obvious it was a lost cause, and you quit, and that is how I see it.
I'm just wondering if after going through the file there is a response from the employer saying, "the claimant never said a word and just all of a sudden quit," and maybe that was the real reason you were denied.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
I did "quit suddenly" but not before having SEVERAL meetings with all different managers in the department (Training manager, my new manager, my new manger's managers, VP of HR) I spoke to all of them regarding the issue, that is why they reluctantly let me switch my schedule to part time..and after two weeks of that, with my issue not being resolved and me being absolutely miserable, I emailed the VP of HR one morning and told them that I quit.
This is what my email stated: "I wanted to inform you that effective 11/14/12 I will be resigning from (Company). The position at (Company) that I initially accepted was in (My original department), not (New Department). With the closing of (My Department), I tried my best to adjust to the new department, however the transition was not successful as the job caused severe anxiety from the hostile environment and lack of training that was not provided, as I requested."
HR's reponse was: XXX will mail out your final checks which will include pay through the 14th and any accrued vacation time. Please feel free to contact me to schedule an exit interview.
The VP of HR has a habit of NEVER acknowledging anything that you send him in an email. I have all copies of emails of problems I have sent him, even before the closing of my department, that he NEVER even acknowledge receipt of. My old team had the same problems I did when we moved up there (They also were told that they would not be getting any raises, etc), and I would CC them (and bcc'd my personal email), so they would know that I was trying to work on it, and also to have proof that the emails were sent , but whenever I saw him, he wouldn't say a single word. The only time he, or any of the other managers, would acknowledge the problems, was in person in his office. So I started turning on the voice recorder on my phone before going into our meetings. I know that the recordings are not admissible in court in California as the law states that both parties must be aware that a recording is taking place, but I wanted to have them so my team, and other people, would know I was not crazy nor lying about what was going on, or lack thereof.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
They don't go by just what you said. They ask the employer. Do you know what your employer said?
What I'm getting at, is the deputy might have ruled against you based on the employer's version rather than your own, and you won't be able to know that until you look in the file and review the deputy's notes and any correspondence submitted by your employer. You also might find that the person submitting the the employer's version wouldn't have known about any complaints you had.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
Oh ok gotcha. When do I receive that folder with the paperwork and their notes? Do they automatically send it to me or do I need to call and go pick it up from the appeals office? I'm assuming that they did rule based upon the employers version, due to the fact that EDD's reasoning they gave me for denying my claim was "You quit due to working conditions were changed and imposed by your employer and you did not seek all reasonable resolutions before quitting." Which leads me to believe that my employer did not tell them that I did in fact seek all reasonable resolutions before quitting..ie speaking to all other managers of other departments, part time hours requested, additional training being requested, etc.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
People that get scheduled for in-person hearings report that their file is ready about 3 days prior to the hearing, and has to be picked up at the hearing office. Those scheduled for telephone hearings report receiving the file contents with their hearing notice.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
I spoke with my coworker, the one who quit a few weeks after I did. Her unemployment claim was approved and she has already started receiving benefits. I always went up to bat for myself and my team with the VP of HR whenever he was not doing something he should be, or to get his attention to an issue that was arising, to hold him accountable..so he can do his damn job. Now I'm feeling like this is some sort of personal vendetta against me because besides myself, there were 4 others that were in my department, 2 so far got their unemployment, 1 still works there, and the other didn't get it because she told EDD that she quit for another job, and then did not show up her appeals hearings. So, excluding the last one..we're 2 for 3, I don't understand how they can deny me. This is getting really frustrating.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
These things are fact intensive. You have to know WHY they got it. It's not enough that you worked at the same place and had the same experience. Each one of you of you filled out your own applications, so you all said different stuff.
What did they say on their applications, and what was the decision of the deputy?
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
I know for a fact that she said the exact same thing I said when she filed, because I helped her fill out application online, after I had received my award letter from them telling me I was approved. During her phone interview they asked the same questions and she provided to same answers (I was with her when they called), the only thing her phone interviewer asked that was different was "Why did you wait so long to quit?" I quit 1 month and 12 days after the transfer, she quit 2 months and 4 days after the transfer. She advised them because she was sticking it out trying to see if it would get better and it did not. I thought she was more likely to not get it because the VP of HR offered her a sales job in another department before she quit and she declined. The only other difference is, when I told my phone interviewer about the hostile environment we worked in, she called me back a week or so later to ask me to elaborate more on that to see if there was some sort of discrimination or illegal practices that were being imposed that they needed to investigate.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
Ok, so she said the same thing you did. Now, look at her determination, and what does it say versus yours. That will clue you in to what your weakness is.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
I don't understand. What is my weakness? What did she do that I didn't do? From my point of view, I've done everything I could by the book to keep my job, and then to get my benefits. Then called and followed up with EDD every 2 weeks or so for the past 2 months. In our phone interviews, I stressed more on the environment and job being hostile and not what I agreed to do, she stressed that the job was not for her and not what she agreed to do. I practically filled out her application for her, and she waited, and got benefits. So I'm not understanding what you mean.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
You said that your decision was, "I left without seeking all possible resolutions before I quit, due to the change in working conditions."
She would have received a determination also. What did it say? Comparing the two decisions will hopefully guide you in why the deputy in her case was persuaded, and yours was not.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
She didn't receive anything stating her determination. She just received her EDD debit card and more claim forms, she also checked and saw that she's already had benefits deposited to the card. From my experience, they have never sent me a letter telling me why they approved my claim, only why the didn't. This is this first time I've applied for benefits and been denied. The previous times I've only received the Award letter and more claim forms. Which I received this time, but then they turned around and denied it. This is getting super frustrating. I guess I just need to wait to get that folder your were referring to and see what my ex employer said and then come up with a game plan from there.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
Ok So I reviewed the case file today. It appears that they are denying it because of my resignation email where I stated "hostile environment, stressful, etc" and are saying that I quit for personal reasons, same thing with EDD their statements from our interview emphasis the stress and anxiety over the job and not anything else. So my plan of action at this point is to emphasize, in front of the ALJ, that I quit due to good cause. 1. The transfer was a bonafide demotion. 2. I did not morally agree with the work we were expected to do. (Title 22, Section 1256-23(c) provides the employer's requirements are unreasonable under any of the following circumstances: The claimant reasonably objects to the employer's requirements on moral grounds.) Both of these are true and encompasses what I mean when I said anxiety, stressful, hostile environment. The type of sales and service that we provided in my previous department, that I supervised, was customer satisfaction driven, and integrity focused. This new department lacked any integrity, and was driven strictly by money. I was expected to defend fees customers were being charged erroneously and not give them refunds, not take the time to explain to them how to save money on their monthly bill (which we did in my department), etc.
So I'm wondering if I should bring up these two, or just go with the first. My coworker who received her benefits said she basically emphasized to the EDD interviewer that this job was not what she signed up to do when she worked for the company and she did not agree with the nature of the work we had to do.
My other coworker was offered the option to be laid off, when she returned from maternity leave, which myself, nor my team was offered. So at this point, I can bring in, or get statements from, these two coworkers to attest to these facts. Facts being that I was a supervisor and was demoted to an entry level position, that the work we were required to do were morally against what our department, as well as myself(evidenced by their experience working under me) believed in, and that there was an option to be laid off that not everyone was made privy to.
What are you thoughts?
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
Okay, I can't stand it any more.
For the record, the term, hostile work environment, has a very specific meaning in employment law. Unless you were being subjected to either sexual harassment or illegal harassment/discrimination as defined in Title VII and related laws, you were not, legally, in an HWE.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
Quote:
Quoting
cbg
Okay, I can't stand it any more.
For the record, the term, hostile work environment, has a very specific meaning in employment law. Unless you were being subjected to either sexual harassment or illegal harassment/discrimination as defined in Title VII and related laws, you were not, legally, in an HWE.
Obviously I knew that after I stated, last week, that the EDD interviewer called me back to determine what type of hostile environment I was subjected to. I brought it up today because it is relevant to the case as that is the reason that they are stating, per the case file, that I quit..In my email I said "hostile environment", which they are claiming is personal reasons. The reason I said it in the first place was that is what myself, and my coworkers who were transferred up to that department, referred to that department as. If I had known that they would look at that as personal reasons, then I would not have stated that in the first place. I was not in anyway saying that I was subjected to a hostile work environment under Title VII employment law. If you read the copy of my resignation email that I posted in this thread, last week, you will see that I did not say "I am quitting due to hostile work environment" because that was not the reason. All I said was the transition was unsuccessful due HWE. All of which I will explain to the ALJ. Thanks for your input though.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
But, you see, you were not IN an HWE as defined by law. So the unsuccessful transition could not have been because of an HWE.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
I don't think you're understanding. I am not, nor was I, referring to a Hostile Work Environment in the legal sense when I wrote that in the email and on this thread. I was, and am now, referring hostile in the definitive sense as in: "Hostile ;adj; marked by malevolence : having or showing unfriendly feelings," which describes the ENVIRONMENT that we WORKED in. Again, I did not state I was quitting DUE to, in the definitive sense that I was using, a hostile environment. I quit due to the fact that:
1. My company, position, and department was eliminated.
2. The position I was transferred to was an effective demotion, which also capped my salary, and limited any future promotional prospects.
3. The nature of the work was not in alignment with my skillset, which would have lead me to lose proficiency in my most employable skillset (According to Title 22, Section 1256-23(c) under Unreasonable Requirements) ie.: My skillset is Product Development/Sales and Client Retention. Not financial analysis and processing.
All three of those reasons, to my knowledge, are in fact good cause to voluntarily quit. All of those reasons, however, are not what lead to the hostile environment I was referring to. The managers, their policies, and their attitudes, as well as the attitudes of the other employees in that horrible department, lead to my, and my coworkers, defining that environment as in fact, hostile.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
My point is that you are using a phrase that has a very specific meaning, and you are using it incorrectly. It could be - I am not saying it is for sure, but it is certainly not impossible - that the difficulties you are having is that when you say HWE, it is being interpreted as the LEGAL definition. And since it is clear that you are NOT in a legal HWE, that causes your meaning to be misunderstood.
You cannot take a phrase that is understood to mean one thing, use it to mean something else, and expect that there will be instantaneous understanding of what you mean. If you say to people who are used to an HWE meaning one thing, that's what they're going to expect you to mean by it too.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
I understand your point. Like I said, had I known that "hostile work environment" was in fact some legally defined term under employment law, I would not have used it. I don't know if that is the reason I am having difficulties or not. It seems like it may be, given the fact that my coworker, who is receiving UI, quit for the same reasons after me, said the same thing I did on her application, the only difference being I mentioned hostile work environment in my resignation letter and telephone interview, and she did not. I'm assuming after determining that there was no actual "hostile work environment", the EDD person handling my case, agreed with the employer when they presented my email to them and stated I quit for personal reasons. So my plan is to explain that at my hearing to the ALJ and make it clear that I was mistaken in using that term, and then present the actual reasons I voluntarily quit.
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
From your knowledge or experience, does it appear to you, given the current facts, that I have a good chance of getting the appeal overturned? Do you believe I should have my coworkers there as well to attest to any, or all of these facts?
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
I've seen some odd decisions in both directions, so I can't say for certain either way. But if I were a betting woman, I'm not sure I'd put the money on your prevailing. As for having your co-workers there, how many of them are there that are willing to put their jobs on the line for you?
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Re: What are the Chances of Winning an Unemployment Appeal
There's only 1 person that was in my department when we got transferred that is still there. I'm not planning on bringing involving her, even though she agrees with me. The coworkers I'm referring to, weren't technically "coworkers" since I was their manager, but they both voluntarily quit for reasons #1 and #3 I listed (1 quit before me, and 1 quit after) and both are receiving unemployment. So they have nothing to put on the line. We all talked and they told me I should bring up the fact that they both quit for the same reasons and received their unemployment. So they would not have a problem coming into the hearing with me.