Trial De Novo Denied Due to Appeal Being Received After Deadline, but Sent on Time
My question involves traffic court in the State of: California
I am copying some of the information about details that i had from a previous thread.
So i was ticketed for allegedly speeding after i just bought a car in California and was driving it home to Washington state. the officer pulled me over and told me that i was doing 90MPH even thou i know for a fact that i was doing the speed limit since i had the car on cruise control for about 600 miles, passed other cops taking speeds and was following the same 2 cars for 600 miles.
I was shocked when the officer told me 90MPH so i asked him again "90?" and he said "Yes i clocked you doing 90". I then asked the officer if i could see the speed gun he clocked me with, since i was certain i wasn't doing 90, he then replied with a NO and was upset from that point on. when i argued with him that i know i wasn't doing 90 he told me i could take it to court, when i told him i obviously can't because i am from out of state he told me about the TBD.
So i did the TBD and lost, i was mailed the notice on 12/3/2012 (item #2 on the forum) and i replied back to it by requesting a TDN. i read here and on the notices that i got in the mail that i have 20 days to send in my TDN request which i did. my TDN request was received by the court on 12/17/2012 according to certified mail scanned image from USPS. I waited for a few days and got nothing back in the mail, so i called the court on 12/26/2012 to confirm that it was received. at first the clerk told that nothing was received and that if they don't get it by the 23rd my request would be denied. I then informed the clerk that i have a confirmation from USPS that the form was delivered, so she put me on hold for a few minutes and then told me that she found it and they haven't gotten to it yet because they have a ton of paperwork. she told me i should call back in a month if i don't hear anything.
Today 1/11/2012 i got a letter from the court saying that my request was Denied because it wasn't received on time and my case is now closed. Do i have grounds to request an appeal ? I still have the file from USPS that shows it was delivered to their address on the 17th which is 6 days before it is due. there was no TDN so i don't know if an appeal would be the correct thing to do or how to proceed from here ?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Re: Trial De Novo Denied Due to Not Received on Time but Was Sent on Time
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mickaphely
he told me i could take it to court, when i told him i obviously can't because i am from out of state he told me about the TBD.
So i did the TBD and lost, i was mailed the notice on 12/3/2012 (item #2 on the forum) and i replied back to it by requesting a TDN.
So you argued with the officer that you couldn't take it to court and yet did not hesitate on requesting the TDN as soon as you lost the TBD
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mickaphely
Do i have grounds to request an appeal ? I still have the file from USPS that shows it was delivered to their address on the 17th which is 6 days before it is due. there was no TDN so i don't know if an appeal would be the correct thing to do or how to proceed from here ?
Apparently this is one court where you can actually speak to the clerk. Why not pick up the phone and try the path of least resistance? Talk to the clerk and see what they tell you instead of expecting a panel of judges set aside some time simply to review what is obviously a clerical error...
Re: Trial De Novo Denied Due to Not Received on Time but Was Sent on Time
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That Guy
So you argued with the officer that you couldn't take it to court and yet did not hesitate on requesting the TDN as soon as you lost the TBD
you are a Genius, that's what happened as i said. I didn't think i could take it to court because i am out of state, as in i didn't think you can dispute a traffic citation if you don't have a local (CA in this case) license. that tells you how much experience i have with things like that....
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That Guy
Apparently this is one court where you can actually speak to the clerk. Why not pick up the phone and try the path of least resistance? Talk to the clerk and see what they tell you instead of expecting a panel of judges set aside some time simply to review what is obviously a clerical error...
wasn't really expecting a panel of judges set a side for me or for the critical error the court did, I was rather looking at my options after reading that the case is now closed. I am going to take your comment as meaning there is a way to "reopen" the case and it's not a done deal.
Thanks for replying.
Re: Trial De Novo Denied Due to Not Received on Time but Was Sent on Time
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mickaphely
you are a Genius
Under the circumstances, I sure am... A mere guess on your part though because, it is a conclusion that with your capacity, you are not qualified to render.... You are smacking your lips about my statements, and yet the topic of your thread is about your request for a "trial de novo" being denied. Case in point...
You are aware that for you to even stand a chance at a trial de novo, you will have to physically appear in court (or retain the services of an attorney to represent you). So what is the point of your request, your disputing the relevant dates and the decision of the court clerk to deny your request, and your desire to have your case reopened, if in fact you have no inclination to make an appearance on whatever date the court may opt for?
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mickaphely
wasn't really expecting a panel of judges set a side for me or for the critical error the court did, I was rather looking at my options after reading that the case is now closed.
An appeal is a process by which a panel of judges conduct a review of the proceedings in a case to determine the validity of a court's finding and or answer a question of law that arose as a result of the case under review.
And your attempt to over dramatize the situation by calling it a "critical error" is a huge failure especially considering the fact that (1) the error is NOT critical considering you are not likely to benefit from a trial de novo, and (2) and in light of the possible outcome even if you were in fact able to appear, the error will seem harmless (maybe even beneficial to you) after the likelihood of losing a trial de novo even of you were to appear.
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mickaphely
I am going to take your comment as meaning there is a way to "reopen" the case and it's not a done deal.
Great... See? You are not as dumb as you think you are. Or so it seems... Now, the question that remains is, why would you opt to have the case reopened, and have a trial de novo be granted in your yet-to-be-re-opened-case, if you have no plan or desire to appear in the court where this matter was originally scheduled?
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mickaphely
Thanks for replying.
You are quite welcome!
Re: Trial De Novo Denied Due to Not Received on Time but Was Sent on Time
Update
Today I faxed over the proof of me having sent the Trial De Novo request and an explanation of how there was an error and i sent the request 6 days before it was due. I called the court 15 minutes after and the clerk told me she just got my fax and she is looking at it. she placed me on hold for a good 35 minutes (went to the grocery store, went got gas and came home and i was still on hold on my cell phone) then she came back and told me that i have to file a motion since the request was not received on time. i explained to her that the request WAS received on time and that it shows i was received on the certified mail delivery confirmation. she explained to me that the delivery confirmation was to the wrong address and i told her no, it was to the correct address. the clerk argued with me that the address for Siskiyou county superior court is 311 4th street Yreka CA and that the address on the certified mail shows as 311 4th 108. Now keep in mind that this is the same address that i have been using the whole time and it's the same address that i sent my ticket, bail, TD and TDN to. The clerk told me that she doesn't know who the person who signed for it is and that i must have sent it to the wrong address despite, i then asked her how is it that when i called before they said they received it and they were processing it and that's when she said that they didn't realize it was received late. I explained to her that someone from the court clearly received since they have it. so it can't be that i sent it somewhere else and they never received it. her argument really made no sense at all, she said it wasn't received by the court on time yet it was received by someone else from the court on time and that is suppose to be my fault.
The clerk told me that she can't help me any further and that case is now closed and the only thing that i can do is file a motion which i have no idea how to do. Does anyone know what my options are, what should i do ?
any help would be greatly appreciated as i don't know where to proceed from here other than looking up filing a motion.
- - - Updated - - -
Here is what two of the USPS certified mail delivery confirmations said.
http://imageshack.us/a/img694/3103/27909702.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img854/7608/57588256.jpg
Re: Trial De Novo Denied Due to Not Received on Time but Was Sent on Time
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mickaphely
Its a good thing that you've included the previous confirmation too just to show that you really have been addressing your correspondence to the wrong address!
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mickaphely
the clerk argued with me that the address for Siskiyou county superior court is 311 4th street Yreka CA and that the address on the certified mail shows as 311 4th 108.... she explained to me that the delivery confirmation was to the wrong address
And she is correct!
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mickaphely
i told her no, it was to the correct address.
WOW!!!
That doesn't look like the correct address to me!
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mickaphely
I explained to her that someone from the court clearly received since they have it.
I could think of at least 3 other possibilities as to how they could have your paperwork only that they didn't receive it on the date shown on that confirmation...
But rather than speculate, lets do this:
The court's address is at: 311 4th Street, Yreka, Ca 96094. If you type in that address into Google Maps (just click HERE) you'll see that there are a number of government offices at that same address.
Believe it or not, I just happened to randomly pick "Siskiyou County Tax Collector" and copied and pasted that into Google for a search and guess what, here is what came up:
Assessor - Recorder
311 Fourth Street, Room 108
Yreka, CA 96097
(LINK)
You can deny it all you want, but if you mailed your paperwork to the address shown as 311 4th, 108, then it wasn't going directly to the traffic court clerk, instead, it was getting delivered to the County Tax Assessor's office... And who knows how long they took before they got to it and when they did, and figured it was supposed to go to the court clerk, they walked it across the hall.
And if you think about it, it really isn't their fault. You addressed a piece of mail to them, they received it, they opened it, and the way I see it they did you a few favors by delivering your mail to where it should have gone!
At any rate, moving back to your original post with the other relevant dates:
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mickaphely
my TDN request was received by the court on 12/17/2012 according to certified mail scanned image from USPS.
Actually, your request for a TDN was apparently, or more likely received by someone at the County Tax Assessor's office on the 17th. You're not proving much there!
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mickaphely
so i called the court on 12/26/2012 to confirm that it was received. at first the clerk told that nothing was received and that if they don't get it by the 23rd my request would be denied.
OK, so you spoke to someone on 12/26/12, do you remember the name?
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mickaphely
I then informed the clerk that i have a confirmation from USPS that the form was delivered, so she put me on hold for a few minutes and then told me that she found it and they haven't gotten to it yet because they have a ton of paperwork.
Still didn't ask what date they received it? In other words, they confirmed they had it on that date, 12/26/2012 but really gave you no indication it was received on or before the 23rd... And you didn't ask! In fact, it could have been received on that same date of 12/26, or possibly on 12/24 but not necessarily on the 17th, or anytime between then and the 23rd!
And just to add, I cannot think of a single reason why the clerk would lie about receiving it on a date AFTER the 23rd if it had been received prior to... So such a claim would not be too convincing!
Subsequently and on:
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mickaphely
1/11/2012 i got a letter from the court saying that my request was Denied because it wasn't received on time and my case is now closed.
First, you mean you received the letter on 1/11/2013, not 2012...
And so.... Instead of contacting the court that same date, or shortly thereafter, like on Monday 01/14/2013, you decided to sit on your hand and wait from the date you received ^that^ notice, until today... 35 days later, before you contacted the court with your inquiry? Why?
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mickaphely
I still have the file from USPS that shows it was delivered to their address on the 17th which is 6 days before it is due.
Again, as it turns out, that wasn't their address!
You can try and file a motion to reopen your case, but in light of the addressing error YOU committed, and add to that the fact that you waited all this time before doing anything, your motion will likely be quite stale by now. And it would then follow that your chances of getting your motion sustained and your case re-opened are slim to none.
Additionally, and since your chances of prevailing in a 22349(a) or a 22356(b) (not sure which you were cited for) citation case are even slimmer than your chances of getting your case reopened, and even more so with you getting cited for 90mph, or 25mph (or 20mph) over the limit, you saving the travel costs back to California just to fight a losing battle may have worked out for the best!
Re: Trial De Novo Denied Due to Not Received on Time but Was Sent on Time
That Guy,
I am going to start addressing everything you said in order but let me start by saying that every time i have read a reply that you gave to my thread or others it was always an attack thread. I have no idea why you are like that but you should relax a bit. you are not getting paid to do this and neither am i so there is no reason to start attacking everyone who is asking a question. I see you reply to A LOT of threads which is great but if you are tired or sleep deprived it's okay to take a break and relax a bit. With that said, I do appreciate your feedback as it helps me understand more. Now back to the topic.
your first comment,
I HAVE NOT been addressing them to the wrong address, the address i have been getting is off of the ticket. i have been using the same address off of the ticket for all my communication with the court. the address is 311 4th street which is what i have been using. the certified mail signature is from the receiver who is signing for the letter in which case they put 108. I am assuming now that USPS has been delivering it to room 108 as you have googled and left the link. However, the address i put on is the same one on my ticket, i have a picture of it below.
http://imageshack.us/a/img89/8969/capturezgre.jpg
Second comment,
She is right and so am I, i have been addressing them to the correct address and the correct title (Siskiyou County Superior Court) and they received everything that i have sent so far on time including my payment with no hiccups and as you can see the older signature still shows the 108 address.
Third comment,
see my previous comment.
Fourth comment,
it looks like you found the issue here and it seems like my paperwork was being delivered to room 108 which is the Assessor, however, as i have stated before, i have been addressing the court correctly this whole time.I took a picture of one of my TDN letter before sending it out so i could keep the tracking number on my phone but i can't find it right now.I think a picture of the correct address with the correct tracking number that shows delivered on time should help prove my point later.
Fifth comment,
I went to the USPS office today after getting off of the phone with the clerk and i asked them if it is possible it could have been delivered elsewhere and she explained to me that it's not possible as the mailman always double checks the address when they are signing. I am not sure if that happened in my case.
Fifth comment,
No i don't remember the name of the person i spoke with because the clerks never say there name when they pick up, it goes something like "siskiyou county court could you please hold?" and after the hold i get a "docket number or case number to start out with please?" that's it literally.
i did check online and it seems like the person i spoke with has the initials EFF as you can see below from the online status system.
http://imageshack.us/a/img208/746/20550749.jpg
also i am going to repeat what i mentioned in the first post "i called the court on 12/26/2012 to confirm that it was received. at first the clerk told that nothing was received and that if they don't get it by the 23rd my request would be denied. I then informed the clerk that i have a confirmation from USPS that the form was delivered, so she put me on hold for a few minutes and then told me that she found it and they haven't gotten to it yet because they have a ton of paperwork. she told me i should call back in a month if i don't hear anything"
I think that explains why she noted on my case "DEF FILED REQ FOR NEW TRIAL (EFF)" because she did have the forms as i mentioned.
Sixth comment,
No i didn't directly ask when did they get my request, i did however ask, i am paraphrasing here as i don't remember exactly, if "I am good" and she replied by "yes since we received your forms before the due date we will go ahead and process it and you will get a letter in the mail with your court date" and then i asked when should i hear back or if i should call back in a week and she told me that i should receive something with in a month which explains why she had noted that i requested a TDN or else it wouldn't be noted on my case as you can see in the picture i attached above.
also, i am not claiming that she is lying but rather the fact that she refuses to admit that there was a clerical error. I understand that the clerk doesn't know me and she wouldn't benefit from me winning or losing the case but i speculate her having an issue if she admitted having made an error.
Seventh comment,
correct, i had a typo when i wrote 2012 instead of 2013.
actually, i did contact the court on Monday the 14th by phone which is noted again in the picture i have attached above and the court clerk told me that i need to fax the certified mail delivery confirmation to her and to write something about the situation, i asked her when that stuff would be due and she said there was no time limit for it. I work 2 jobs one during the week and the other during the weekends and had no time to go to USPS and get a copy of the certified mail delivery confirmation so i had to go on Monday the 28th which then they informed me that i do it over email and since it was already delivered they put my email in the system and told me that i should get an email with delivery confirmation within afew days and sure enough on Tuesday i had it. Now i didn't have a chance to leave work early and go to UPS to fax the letter until this afternoon. so no i haven't just been sitting here doing nothing, i been trying to get the delivery confirmation to fax and when i did i faxed everything and i called to check. again there was no deadline for sending this paperwork in either.
Eighth comment,
I think i have explained that i had the correct address on there and that the clerk had already marked me for a TDN before sending me something else that said i wouldn't be getting a TDN. I understand that my chances of prevailing a 22349(a) are slim to none as you put it but it's the principle.
with all that said, I hope you understand that i appreciate your comments as it shed light on things that i didn't figure out like the tax assesors office etc. hopefully other members can chime in and let me know what options i have other than filing a motion if any. otherwise, how do i go about filing that motion.
Thanks,
Re: Trial De Novo Denied Due to Not Received on Time but Was Sent on Time
I didn't ask you for an analysis of my personality or any advice on how to live my life. I think you would be much better off worrying about your own issues and shortcomings before you start criticizing others. But since you went there, I assume you wouldn't mind a taste of your own medicine.
Apparently, your ignorance and lack of attention that you showed in your first and second post weren't enough, you had to come back to demonstrate an even deeper level of ineptitude! You couldn't show a copy of the mailing label you used, or the certified mail receipt showing an address and the article number, or a redacted copy of the cover letter you included in your request showing what address your packet was mailed to, or a copy of "Form-TR-220 Request for a New Trial" (you did keep a copy for your records, did you not) showing the address of the court that form was eventually mailed to; nope! You'd post an image of what address was written on your citation... That means nothing if in fact, two deliveries of mail, independent of each other and yet having 2 distinct things in common, (1) that they came from you and (2) that they were delivered to the identical yet incorrect address. And to top it off, you'd still argue with the clerk that it was the correct address!
Face it, you have no recourse whatsoever. From the California Rules Of Court:
Rule 4.210. Traffic court—trial by written declaration
(b)
Procedure
(7)
Trial de novo
If the defendant files a Request for New Trial (Trial de Novo) (form TR-220) within 20 calendar days after the date of delivery or mailing of the decision and Notice of Decision (form TR-215), the clerk must set a trial date within 45 calendar days of receipt of the defendant’s written request for a new trial. The clerk must deliver or mail to the defendant and to the arresting officer’s agency the Order and Notice to Defendant of New Trial (Trial de Novo) (form TR-225). If the defendant’s request is not timely received, no new trial may be held and the case must be closed.
Thus far, and while you can deny it all you want, you have failed to show that your request was received by the court in a timely manner. Moreover, and while you're too busy being critical of me and what I do, while you're obviously too occupied being a smart ass about how you went grocery shopping while the clerk had you on hold, when you eventually spoke to her, you couldn't even ask her the correct question!
You couldn't find a rule, a law, a case law citation or even a sensible argument as to why your case should be reopened and why you should get a new trial. Assuming you've provided all the "proof" you have, you are not in a position to argue demand or even beg to have your case reopened. But even if you were, having to travel back to California only to end up fighting a case you cannot win, is even more proof of your inability to reason.
One last piece of advice is the next time you find yourself in need of some help from anyone, be cordial respectful and appreciative, and watch your mouth and mind your manners. I am not talking about myself, but about your apparent sense of entitlement you demonstrated in your dealings with the clerks. You can wait for others to come help you write your motion. I am done here!
Re: Trial De Novo Denied Due to Not Received on Time but Was Sent on Time
Again, you are taking things completely out of proportion and making a big deal out of everything. I don't have time or a reason to "analyze" you, I was rather stating the facts that you are always attacking others on the forum whether they are misinformed or did something wrong. I could go and quote examples here all day long, there are plenty, but then again this is not why i am here and i don't have time for this. By the way, i am not "criticizing others" i am only talking about you and I am worried about my own issues which is why i am here.
again i stand by my point, you do need to relax and if you can't see why then go to your history and look at some of your posts. you contribute greatly on this forum and you are an active member but you are always attacking people.
I didn't realize something like that was going to happen so no i don't have copies of everything but i do have a picture of the shipping label which would show the address on there, i just have to find it on my old phone or dropbox if it was uploaded there. I didn't have to ask her by the way, she already said that it was received on the 26.
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be cordial respectful and appreciative, and watch your mouth and mind your manners
I think you should take some of your own advice here
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your ignorance and lack of attention
here
and here
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inability to reason
and i didn't disrespect you in anyway, i was simply, very politely, stating the fact that you attack everyone which is true.
with that said, thanks for your input and now i know i have some homework to do looking for a law, or a case law and since you are done, hopefully we can get back on topic. by the way, i am not being a smart ass when i said thanks for your input in case you thought i was.
Hopefully other members could chime in too.