Faulty Hydronic Floor Heating System

My question involves real estate located in the State of: Missouri.

I'll try to be brief. I bought a home April of 2012, slab on grade construction, with hydronic floor heating (uses plastic PEX tubing to heat a concrete large slab, supposed to be 20-30% more efficient than standard forced air) The house was also designed with large southern windows to help with passive heating, a wood stove that I have used 3-5 days a week, and extra insulation in all walls and ceilings, including the garage. It was supposed to be extremely efficient home, "nearly off the grid" as described in the sale ad. The short part is, 2 months into using the heating system my electric usage has gone up 6 times my normal usage with the thermostat at 68 F. The seller said his bills were around $20 a month, my first two with heat have been 6-10 times that. I believe the floor heating system was installed incorrectly and he knew this.

I have had multiple days where I don't have water in the mornings in certain fixtures because the water lines have frozen (the water lines are ran in the attic, using PEX). The seller lived there for 6-7 years, he had it built, and would have to have known the extreme cost in keeping the home at heated to a cool 68 F while burning wood too.

I need to know what I can/should do. The home was built around this floor heat, and it is not working correctly or efficiently. I either want the home razed and the foundation heat fixed, or the selller to take it back, and pay me the sale price, including incured costs. Is this possible? Had I known it was going to be an issue I would have bought a home with standard heat and a basement.



Below is more detailed info if you need.

My normal electric KW usage is about 4-500 KW a month without A/C. Since I turned my thermostat to 68 F in November my two bills have been 1890 KW, and 2670 KW. I have observed an normal daytime usage without needing the heat of around 8-15 KW. I have seen nights with the heat running over 120 KW in 8 hrs. It is a 2100 sqft ranch, the boiler is rated at 20 KW, 68000 btu/hr, 100% efficiency.

I have woken up multiple days where the thermostat is reading 65 or 66 in the house (set at 68 since its been turned on). I have stayed up and watched the boiler run with all 4 elements on yet the boiler outlet temperature never goes up until the sun comes up and it starts warming the house. I have taken temperature readings across my slab floor and found some areas around 50 F and others as high as 85 F within a few feet. The average portion of the floor is only 74 F when the boiler is running around 105 F. (there is not floor coverings in 90% of the home, the previous seller said he had no flooring to increase efficiency).


My Background: I'm a commissioned boiler inspector, previously a boiler operator on a submarine. I have already checked the boiler and elements, they are functioning correctly

You describe a problem with water lines freezing in the attic; that seems unrelated to your problem with the floor heating system.

What diagnostic effort have you made in relation to the floor heating system beyond confirming that the boilers work? What did you discover through that effort? The system is how many years old?

Hydronic heat is dirt simple as you should know. Are the pumps running? Is there air in the lines? Do you have thermometers on the lines running out to the zones?

The lines in the attic seem to be freezing because the system cannot keep up at night. The heat comes from the floor not the ceiling in a normal home. If it is not coming out of the top of the slab into the home at the proper rate, it can not heat all the areas of the home (ie, rooms with floor covering, a large with cathedral ceiling). These areas have the temperature drop even below 60 F in the home. Again the thermostat is at 68 F, the boiler is running at 100% capacity.

I have used infared temperature sensors to check temperatures around the home and I have a print of where the piping should be. The temperatures in one bathroom for instance is around 85 F around the whole room. My bedroom at the same time is 71. There is NO zoning in the system. The temperatures across the floor can range from 50-85F in other areas too. The system has no leaks, it holds pressure without a supply line pressurizing it, all the lines are running clean water, no air. The circulation pump is operating in the correct direction, flow switch is being made, pump spinning, and current draw is as per data plate. Edit: I have also cleaned the heating elements (had eggshell scale thickness), checked amp draw, and used IR to compare temps of the thermometer, with the installed RTD's on the boiler. They all agree within 5-10% which is expected because of the different thermal wells and using an IR gun outside the pipe.

water lines should never be in an attic if outside ambient temps fall below freezing. An attic is a non-heated space. In fact, if properly constructed, the attic will experience outside ambient temps, intentionally.






It's time to get a pro in on the job. If the guy has used this system for years, either it is malfunctioning or it was used as a backup system to the wood burning heat. You need a hvac guy to do an audit on the house to determine if that is adequate to heat the home.(manual J calculation I believe) Depending on your building design (insulation and heat gain realized), that may not be large enough to heat your home in the temps you are experiencing.

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There is NO zoning in the system.

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that is a huge problem. A large high ceiling room is going to take a hugely different amount of heat than a small enclosed room such as a bathroom. It is not generally possible to do it only due to the amount of system pipe in the floor in that particular room.

Boiler, I have seven zones of hygronic heat fed by a ground sourced heat pump system. I know how it works. Where is your heated envelope. Unless the attic is within the heated envelope (it is in my case because I spray foamed the underside of the roof deck), you expect the attic to be at roughly the outside temperature regardless of what is going on in the house..

You still have't told me what the water temperature of the piping coming out of the boiler is and what it is on the return from the heated rooms. Is there insulation under the slab?

You've not indicated what you think there is a legal issue here. Houses are sold as is. And unless the seller knew there was some latent defect in the hydronic system, he's under no obligation to disclose or is responsbile for it post sale.

I guess I should re-phrase the lack of zoning. There are 10 separate loops around the home. One for each bedroom (supposedly 9" OC) and the larger room has 4 loops 12" OC. The zones are not controlled by valves though. They are manifolded.

So when I sell the home, I can claim it works fine if you run the wood stove 24/7? The system works as designed? It runs from dusk till dawn and the temperature of the home drops? I'd say there's an issue. You don't install a heating system that can't heat the home and say its fine. If he was able to heat the home with any efficiency the electric boiler it wasn't past temperatures just above freezing.

Based on the temps I've seen, with an outside temp below 33 F for any extended time, my house can not be warmer than 75.

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boiler;679134]I guess I should re-phrase the lack of zoning. There are 10 separate loops around the home. One for each bedroom (supposedly 9" OC) and the larger room has 4 loops 12" OC. The zones are not controlled by valves though. They are manifolded.

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no valves, not even a manual valve used for initial setting?

If not, that can be a problem. If there is more resistance in one loop than another, more water will flow through the loop with less resistance.

do what ron asked; take temp readings of each zone leaving the heat source and coming back.

The only valves in the system are check valves on the return lines, manual ball valves on supply and return, ball valves to isolate the bladder tank and system fill. There are no flow setting or thermostatic valves. As far as the guy using the system for years, after I closed I found out this was not his primary residence and he didn't stay here but 2-3 days a week max. This was not disclosed anywhere on the disclosure, including in the septic section that asks if the system has been used normally for the last 6 months or vacant.

Yes, I agree different lengths could be a problem. Installer/contractor that did the work said all were supposed to be similar lengths. I just checked the drawing and they are not even close. One of my bathroom ciruits is 87' two of the circuits in the large room are 210' and 230'. With that said, one of the rooms with the longer runs of 169' is the room with 85 F floors with the boiler at 105 F. The room next to it is a 170' run, but the floor temp at the same time was only 71 F. I'll have to try to get a better reading on all of the supply and returns. According to my IR readings the supplys side of the manifold is all the same temp of 105 F. The returns were all with 5 F in the 82-87 F range. What is a normal delta T between the floor and the water for a system that has been operating for a while (not just starting)?

I'll be out of town for business this week, but the contractor who installed and the engineer are supposed to stop by. I used another 135 KW last night, house was 66 when I woke up, thermostat at 68 F. I'm about 99% sure I couldn't keep the house above 74 F based on the delta T I'm seeing across the floors.

Also, I'm guessing no one here is an actual lawyer, but by some of the responses, if I investigate this and find an issue then I'm stuck with it? If I just leave it, do the same as previous seller and sell, I'd be fine? Some people.....

Very few actual laywers. I gave you the legal issue a few messages back buried in with all they hydronic troubleshooting.

To prevail against him, you will have to show there was a defect that he knew about and didn't disclose. Otherwise the property is an as is thing, and you'd have been best to do some more proper due diligence before buying. The fact that it doesn't work "well" or that the pipes in an unheated space burst (unless they had been known to burst before) isn't actionable.

The situation does sound a bit minimalistic but probably could have squeaked along fine enough for what the previous owner had used it for.

The fact he had the home listed and sold as energy efficient, "almost off the grid" would be enough to me to say he lied. Part of the listing is below. Of course had I know that he had not lived here when he had the $17-$20 electric bills on the counter during the showing, I'd have asked a whole hell of a lot more questions. Taking the reasonable person approach; a reasonable person, unless told otherwise, would say, he lived there, had normal thermostat settings, and had an electric bill proportional to the system. I'm using the same amount of BTUs in a night as it takes to heat a 9 unit, 2 bedroom apartment building.

As far as due diligence, should I have waited till January to buy the house so the heat could be tested properly? It works fine (as it did when tested) when it's 75 F out.

"This home was custom built as a celebration to nature w/ the utmost in energy efficient upgrades and w/ a few tweaks could easily be taken "Off the Grid". Current electric bills just under $20 per month. Facing North/ South it is the perfect passive solar machine. Wake up each morning to an awesome view through a full wall of windows. Over 2000 s.f. w/ a huge open great room, dining area & kitchen combo. 3 bedrms & 3 full baths w/ a mechanical room that could be converted into an office, etc. The 3 car garage is a hobbiests dream. Fully insulated & heated floor. Throughout this home you have elec radiant hydronic heating, 100% efficient & backed up w/ a Vermont Castings wood stove w/ catalytic converter! The walls have R38 insulation and the ceiling R60 & it's pretty to boot! "

there are some lawyers here. I'm not one. Most that post are not or do not state as such so as to not imply a client attorney relationship. Most of the regular posters here tend to be fairly knowledgeable of the law though and attempt to be accurate in their responses. Of course, even if we were all lawyers here, you should still consult with a lawyer that has a legal obligation to you. A little research of posters responses generally shows who's responses to give value to.


If I were to guess as to the problem, I would say there is no insulation below the slab and/or around the perimeter of the slab. You have adequate heat into the system and you are losing heat to the system, fairly equally across the various zones but your building, which you stated is well insulated (and presumably sealed), is just not heating properly. To me, that means the heat is being lost. If there is no under slab insulation, the ground is a great heat sink and you will lose massive amounts of heat to the earth.

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As far as the guy using the system for years, after I closed I found out this was not his primary residence and he didn't stay here but 2-3 days a week max. This was not disclosed anywhere on the disclosure, including in the septic section that asks if the system has been used normally for the last 6 months or vacant.

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You would have to review any disclosure provided to determine if the statements contained could be construed as untruthful. If there is such, it might allow you some action. Other than that, if he used the home less than 1/2 of a week per use, I would suspect your heating costs would be considerably higher presuming he maintained the home at a lower temp while not occupied.

Edit: Ok, I finally found parts of the disclosure I had scanned:

From the Septic/well disclosure
Has the property been vacant over any period during the last 12 months? he checked NO
Has the seller continuously occupied the home for the last 12 months? he checked YES
Are you aware of any defects? he checked NO

So, he lied. Flat out. He can't claim to have lived there continuously for the last 12 months, yet only stay there a few days a week.

If we were to assume that to be a "lie", it would be irrelevant to your claim. But it's actually not unreasonable for a person who stays in a particular home half the week for the entire year to characterize that occupation as continuous. By way of example, if you have a job that requires weekly business travel, even if you're gone most weekdays you still continuously occupy your home.

The man works locally at a golf course. His primary residence is in a town about 30 miles from this home. He worked on his Porsche here. He was well aware of what he was doing at the time of sale.

I would consider staying at a property 2-3 times per week a continuous occupation, especially given the purpose of the question. Heck, once a week would be continuous occupation, again, given the purpose of the question. There is a huge different between a vacant building and one that is used a couple times per week. If anything, it injures the sellers position since claiming it to be a vacant home allows for denial of conditions that may not have been observed had the home been occupied, even occasionally. If claiming it to be occupied, it becomes more difficult to deny conditions that would otherwise not be observed.

So you're saying that him saying Yes to being occupied, will make it harder for him to deny problems correct? So when I try to take it to court and he says he has the thermostat set at 50 F, would that absolve him of knowing there was an issue?

If I'm understanding your replies, a seller can pretty much deny knowing of any problem or say it didn't exist in the way they used the home. So if I were to sell and my septic system didn't work, I could say it worked fine to my knowledge on the disclosure as long as I didn't use it, and not disclose that?

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boiler;679324]So you're saying that him saying Yes to being occupied, will make it harder for him to deny problems correct? So when I try to take it to court and he says he has the thermostat set at 50 F, would that absolve him of knowing there was an issue?

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If he had the thermostat set at 50 and everything was fine, as far as he was aware, then he could honestly say, as far as he was aware, there were no problems.

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If I'm understanding your replies, a seller can pretty much deny knowing of any problem or say it didn't exist in the way they used the home.

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if there were no issues discovered because of the way he used the home that would be obvious had he used things differently, he can say he was not aware of any problems since there were none, as far as he knew.

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So if I were to sell and my septic system didn't work, I could say it worked fine to my knowledge on the disclosure as long as I didn't use it, and not disclose that?

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it is in the wording. There are many times a problem is not known due to the way it is used. As an example; an elderly person living by themselves, unless their septic system has failed totally, may never be aware of a problem such that a family of 4 would experience after moving in.

You cannot expect a person to know of a problem if it does not show up during their use unless it is something that would be obvious, regardless of their use. That is usually relegated to issues such as leaky roofs and other items that are observable visually though.

Well by using the logic on the forum here, I should tell the contractor investigating the issues not to tell me if there are problems. Therefore as long as I'm not specifically aware of them because I'm not a professional HVAC tech, I don't know squat.

I'll let you guys know what the lawyers say this week.

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boiler;679341]Well by using the logic on the forum here, I should tell the contractor investigating the issues not to tell me if there are problems. Therefore as long as I'm not specifically aware of them because I'm not a professional HVAC tech, I don't know squat.

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but you are aware of a problem, even if you do not know the cause of the problem. Your statement would be like a person with a leaky roof denying any problems because they know there is a leak but they don't know where it is. It could be the roof, it could be where the coach light is mounted, it could be a leaky pipe in the ceiling. It doesn't matter you do not know why there is a problem; just that there is a problem.

the contractor isn't going to be telling you if there are problems. You are the one telling him there are problems. That is why you called him. He is going to attempt to tell you the cause of the problem.

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I'll let you guys know what the lawyers say this week.

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thanks.

Well I got a call back from my uncle who practices law in Illinois. If the disclosure laws are similar in MO as IL, he said I have a case. The seller would have been required to disclose that the home was not his primary residence, and he didn't truly occupy it continuously. He also said depending on the install warranty, I may be able to get the installer, but that I probably had no case against them because ,some word I forgot, that means I don't have the warranty, just the seller.

I can't find any actual state laws for Missouri for this stuff. Anyone know where it would be? I search http://www.moga.mo.gov/ and couldn't find exactly what they did or did not have to disclose.

privity?



I cannot find any laws concerning the issue at the moment. Maybe working backwards might help. I presume there was a seller's disclosure, correct? If so, was it a standard form and if so, what is the form number and who provided it?

Privity, exactly. I only have the signed pages of the forms at the moment. Depending on the one I have a 2049, 2046, and at least on other that isn't marked on the top page. I'm currently getting the rest from my realtor.

My uncle (lawyer) also said the original sale wording could be used in court too. He said the since it boasted $20 electric bills year round yet wasn't really lived in, would be considered misleading.

although there is no privity that would allow you to act against the installer, there could be a warranty that might have transferred.


Have you spoken to the seller at all concerning this? If not, before the stuff hits the fan, you might ask about the possibility of a warranty and if it may have transferred.

I first informed my realtor last month when my usage went from 500 KW to 1883 KW. His response was that he used the wood stove for his primary heat source. That was all he said other than I should us it. I emailed my realtor again Friday after I got my reading of 2671 KW to let her know the original installer would be coming out with the engineer to look at the system. I have not heard back yet. Based on his original response, he's going to say he used the wood stove and not the boiler, he would have to live the 7 days a week to keep the fire going if it was his primary heat though. Which he has already says he didn't.

Update: I no longer need to know the definition of "continuously occupied" as the seller is now saying it was his primary residence for the last 6 years and he just moved out. I also now have this in writing. After closing he told me in person he only stayed her 1-2 nights a week, which now is besides the point. He now will have a hard time claiming ignorance that the heat didn't work correctly.

The original installer called and after I pointed out the loop lengths etc, he agreed that there is a problem. He also agreed there is no way I can heat my home this way. He is contacting the ME that made the drawings and we get to pow-wow.

I also spoke with another engineer who says there is no way that the system could operate correctly based on the loop lengths, and spacing of the tubing in the rooms (based on the "current" systems drawing). He said I should have to have a sensor on the floor to prevent from scalding my feet when its operating. The slab should be 110+ F easily if I let it run. I'm lucky if I'm above 74 after a 6 hour run.\

I have not found a lawyer yet because of the consultation fees. I'm trying to understand how a lawyer could charge me to see if they want to do my case? What if I think the lawyer is an asshat and I don't want them to do it? I have to pay them for this? What if the lawyer decides they don't want to try my case even though I payed them for a consultation? That would be like the landscaper charging you see if he wants to or can gut your grass.... I could be a lawyer, never go to trial and make $150-$200 an hour doing bogus consults. What a world we live in.

A lawyer will want to be paid by the hour when other methods of compensation will not be adequate to cover the lawyer's fees.

I have no reason to not pay someone for their services. should I receive them. I'm not going to pay to talk to a lawyer that I will not hire. There are plenty of lawyers that will do the free consultations, they seem to be busier too. I'm guessing because they have more clients. I'm fine with using a lawyer that is confident in their ability to win cases for money rather than try to get my money from consults.

I have also gotten original sale disclosures from the sale. The "heating, cooling, and ventilation" section does not indicate any primary heating source other that "electric, hydronic floor". He's going to have a hard time talking his way out of that one,it was a fill in the blank question. He could have added any detail he wanted about the wood stove being the primary source etc.. In the section that mentions other source of heat, he left it blank.

My uncle should be contacting me this weekend. The only thing he was unsure of was the MO definition of "continuously occupied'. Now that I don't need that he said he would have time to hear the rest this weekend. If he indicates I have a strong case, I would then not mind hiring a lawyer for a consultation with a 95% plus win rate.

If you don't want to pay a lawyer to review your case, you are free to call around until you find one who will offer a free evaluation. Apparently the lawyers you have called to date are too much like you, and aren't willing to risk giving away their services for free to somebody who may choose not to hire them. If you are only looking for lawyers who are certain that you have a strong case even before they review the facts, alas, psychics don't exist and no responsible lawyer will tell you the odds of prevailing without reviewing the facts.

So why charge me $150-$200 for an hour consultation that will only take 15 minutes? I have no problem paying a reasonable fee for a short 15-30 minute consultation. I'll give them $30 for 30 minutes of my time. That is more that double what I get paid, and I make an honest living. I equate most lawyers as one step above the criminals they normally represent. They will do anything for a few bucks, right or wrong, as long as the "law" allows them to get paid.

If judges weren't lawyers, I would possibly try to take the case to court myself. The only evidence I can or would use, I have, I have gathered, or I will have to pay to get (new engineering drawings, and engineering calcs proving the first drawing incorrect).

Again, if you don't want to pay the lawyers you have approached to date, contact additional law firms until you find one who is willing to do that work for free. It is not unreasonable for a lawyer to expect to be paid for the work he performs. You go to a doctor for a diagnosis... and he works for free?

Did you, by chance, get a home inspection prior to closing?
Did you get any mind of warranty from the previous owner?

You mentioned that the owner left copies of his bills showing $20. By your argument your bills are 6-10x that. Even if he lived there 1/2 the time you do, your bills are considerably more than twice his bill. Do you have any other electric appliances...freezers, fridge, ovens, etc that could contribute to the higher bill? Or is it possible that the system needs repair from normal use and it just happened since you bought the house? You do mento a steady kW increase from one month to the next.

What you don't know is if the previous owner liked a 60 degree temp and didn't have use for appliances. You can't automatically assume he was dishonest.

As another post mentioned, he opens himself up to more scrutiny for saying it was an occupied home (which it was....I used to travel 300 days a year and I still occupied a home) than if it was vacant.

You do not have anywhere near the case you think you do.

JKWB the inspector said he could not inspect the heat other than that if it turned on or not because it was 75 F outside. He would be able to say yes it turned on, or no it didn't. There was no A/C in the home until 2 days before closing (this was supposed to be done 1 week before but got delayed), and I had a different well/ septic inspector. No, I did not have it "inspected" but it turned on. Also, the inspector is not a hydronic flooring expert and I would have had to have a 3rd party come in for this inspection. The seller didn't indicate any other problems. The issue would not have been found because it was warm enough outside to prevent the slab from have a heatsink (the air/ground). When I ran it the first day I moved in, it was well over 80 F in my home after an hour or so of running, but it was also in the high 60's or 70's at that point.

The only appliance changed was my energy star efficient fridge for his giant old thing he had there. I also added 2 alarm clocks and a desktop computer that uses a 15 min standby.

I'm pretty sure you don't understand the situation based on your response, and I'll refrain from including the details again. When a real heat loss study is done on a house like mine, you might be surprised at how little heat it needs on an hour-by-hour basis. For instance, a 120K BTU furnaces might have a 70% efficiency (older oil or gas), so it only puts out 85K. Then you might find it only runs 1/3 of the time when it is 25 degrees outside, which means the house only needs 30K in that weather! These numbers are based on a 2500 sq ft house.

The current boiler works correctly, that is the heat source. It is putting 20.8 amps (each) into 4 heating elements, for a total of 20 KW an hour. Electric heat to water is 100% efficient unlike gas or propane. All of the electricity goes through a big resistor (heating element) and all of the energy is transferred into the water by way of heat. The distribution of this heat is plastic piping in my slab foundation, this you can't see its under concrete. This piping is lest than 1/8" and designed to transfer heat out of. The floor should reach well over 110 F, it only gets to 74 F. The distribution system is no working correctly, there are no leaks, and the lines are flowing water.

I guess you were a traveling car salesman.

Wow. A traveling used car salesman...good stuff.

I read your post and don't get half of what you are saying when responding to my post. I basically asked if you had inspections performed and also mentioned that your system could have malfunctioned (it obviously is) under your ownership due to the drastic increase in kWh just during your ownership.

Mathematics...20kWh @ roughly 10 cents per kWh = $2.00 per hour. I guess for a $20 electric bill you get 10 hours per month. Not counting any of your other appliances or customer charges from the power company. But 20kWh seems high.

Lets go into this a different way...20.8amps x 4 heating elements x 240 volt = 19968 watts per hour. $1.9968 per hour.

Does your system really consume that much electricity.

It is what it is....much more expensive than $20/mo.

For comparison, a 200w window fan costs about 2 cents per hours.

Again, you have little chance of getting anything from prior owner.

Good luck...you seem to have a great grasp on reality.

Gotta go...cars to sell.

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JKWB;680733]

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But 20kWh seems high.

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why is that? Have you ever worked with electrical appliances?

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Lets go into this a different way...20.8amps x 4 heating elements x 240 volt = 19968 watts per hour. $1.9968 per hour.

Does your system really consume that much electricity.

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electric systems are easily able to be calculated as such. Based on your figures, it costs ~$2/hour to run the thing. It doesn't run 24/7 but it is obviously running a considerable amount more now than when the original owner was living there. It is what it is.

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It is what it is....much more expensive than $20/mo.

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that's the point.

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For comparison, a 200w window fan costs about 2 cents per hours.

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and the point is?

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Again, you have little chance of getting anything from prior owner.

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It's too early to say that.


boiler; have you actually seen an electric bill prior to you taking possession and being responsible for the utilities? If you, you might contact the utility provider and inquire as to getting a copy of the bills or at least a report of the amount of power used on a monthly basis. That may assist in your situation.

Jk, yes the bills were on the counter during the showing. At the time I didn't pay attention to months/ years, but they were $17-20. I called the electric company and they can't release the bill prior to me starting billing.

As far as cost, we're are about 6 cents/KW in the winter here, and almost double that in the summer. I completely expected my bill to go up in the summer, a 5 ton A/C unit was added that he never had, and my highest bill was only 1400 KW (this is over sized, but that's liveable). The avg outdoor temp that month was 83 F. The months before and prior with the A/C running were 908 KW, and 918 KW. I'm pretty consistent with my non-utility usage, no more that 10 KW a day.

At this point the fact I'm using the a lot more electricity than I though I should have was just one of the big things that help me notice the problem. The problem now is not the electricity usage, but that the system is not capable of being the primary source of heat for my home. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect to wake up to a 95 F floor since that's what the system is supposed to do. I'm not happy when I wake up, walk to the kitchen and feel cold concrete, and a few slightly warm patches. I have bare floors still and intended on putting floor coverings down, these will insulate it even more. If I were to have children here, I do not think I would be able to get the house above 70 F in a normal winter. Again, were are still having a really mild winter, so the use I've seen with it only being in the high 30's (avg) really scares me for a good could winter. My concern is the heat from the PEX is not radiating into my home, but beneath my slab.

jk

I do know a fair amount about electricity and electrical appliances. My point was (and is) that this system is going to cost more than $20/month to run. OP states he is getting bills 6-10x that amount, and honestly that seems reasonable in the winter. Especially with a system that pulls that much electricity.

The other issue is the statement that it is a 100% efficient...he stated that the water lines run through the uninsulated attic and that will reduce efficiency significantly.

His last post states 6 cent kWh...he might want to check his bill because in MO it is closer to 11 cents on the first 200 kWh and 8 cents thereafter.

In all honesty I don't know a lot about this heating system, but I did some research:

1. Temp is adjusted with different pumps / valves
2. Needs some sort of special mixture to prevent pipe freezing
3. Leaks are difficult to locate
4. Yearly service is required

The OP doesn't state knowledge of any of these things. And he hasn't even listened to the suggestion that the system could malfunction during his ownership.

To state of cause of claim against the previous owner, he will have to prove that 1) the problem pre-dates his ownership of the house, and 2) that the previous owner knew there was a problem and did not disclose. He also had a home inspection, but chose not have this expensive system checked out. And still doesn't know if this is going to be a $20 fix or $2000 fix.

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JKWB;680839]jk

I do know a fair amount about electricity and electrical appliances. My point was (and is) that this system is going to cost more than $20/month to run. OP states he is getting bills 6-10x that amount, and honestly that seems reasonable in the winter. Especially with a system that pulls that much electricity.

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How can you even guess how much it takes to heat his home? I have a friend that has an electric bill that runs less than $50/month, all year long (90º+ in the summer and near 0º in the winter) He has electric heat and AC for the summer. His home is very well insulated. Unless you have done a manual J study on the OP's house, there is absolutely no way you can even guess at what it should cost to heat his home/

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The other issue is the statement that it is a 100% efficient...he stated that the water lines run through the uninsulated attic and that will reduce efficiency significantly.

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actually, it does not reduce the efficiency. Electric heat is 100% efficient simply by virtue all electricity used produces heat. You are speaking of a heat loss.

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His last post states 6 cent kWh...he might want to check his bill because in MO it is closer to 11 cents on the first 200 kWh and 8 cents thereafter.

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I figure the OP can read his statement from his house better than I can from mine. Even if he is way off, it does not explain the huge difference in the claimed cost to heat the home compared to the reality.

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In all honesty I don't know a lot about this heating system, but I did some research:

1. Temp is adjusted with different pumps / valves
2. Needs some sort of special mixture to prevent pipe freezing
3. Leaks are difficult to locate
4. Yearly service is required

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actually I do know something about this type of system.

1. temp is adjusted by allocating more or less heat to any given area. How that is done varies with the type of system. It could be with active valves or through a flow valve that is manually adjustable or, it seems in the OP's case, simply by a thermostat that turns the entire system on and off with no adjustments for flow at all.

2. that would usually be a glycol based mixture but it is irrelevant to the discussion. While a glycol mix does transfer heat better than a straight water system, it does not have anything to do with the huge disparity between the old owners electric bills and the OP's.

3. leaks are a bitch to locate, if they are in the slab but the good thing is, if the leak is in the slab, quite often it doesn't actually leak or the leak is so slow it is not a big problem because it is encased in concrete. If the leak is in the exposed piping, it is not all that difficult to find it. Then, depending on how the system is installed, it may be possible to bypass a loop that has a leak without a huge loss to the overall performance of the system, if the leak itself is a problem. Again, this does not appear to be a problem for the OP.

4. actually ALL heating systems except for a pure electric resistance heating system with the heating elements embedded in either the ceiling or floor should have an annual maintenance and adjustment.

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The OP doesn't state knowledge of any of these things. And he hasn't even listened to the suggestion that the system could malfunction during his ownership.

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actually the information the OP has posted tells on him a bit. He is familiar enough with the system, and heating systems in general that he is able to communicate well above a typical laymen's level.

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To state of cause of claim against the previous owner, he will have to prove that 1) the problem pre-dates his ownership of the house, and 2) that the previous owner knew there was a problem and did not disclose. He also had a home inspection, but chose not have this expensive system checked out. And still doesn't know if this is going to be a $20 fix or $2000 fix.

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or that the previous owner lied about something on the disclosure and it causes the OP damages.

and it won't be a $20 fix. I would almost bet it results in the abandoning of the hydronic system. There are myriad stories of poorly engineered or installed hydronic floor heating systems that are abandoned due to it not functioning properly.

JKWB, excuse the lengthy post, but I believe you missed something over the last few pages:

I'm an industrial boiler and machinery inspector currently. I am a few credits away from both a bachelors in Nuclear Engineering Technology, and Electrical Engineering. I have operated steam systems on nuclear powered submarines greater the power electric turbines at 4500 KW/HR and propulsion turbines capable of over 35 knots., and repaired boilers in the industrial commercial sector for 2 years. I hold a national board inspection commission, and inspection commissions in 6 other states. I look at boilers and turbines that are 600 MW plus every week, the ones that power the electric grid. I know wee bit about how a boiler works. The boiler is working fine.

I did check my bill, .0605 cents per KWH in the winter, plus 2 small fees at about $10 total. A total of just over $183 this month. The average outdoor air temp is 29 degrees below my thermostat setting. That is not very cold at all.

The bill is NOT reasonable considering:
A. I have burned almost 2 cords of wood in the wood stove, I use 4 45 watt fans in the rooms to circulate the air while this is burning (at high, they run in low, and in the direction to circulate the air, not summer direction). This electric draw is minimal maybe
B. The home is also passive solar, I have 8 large glass panes facing south to absorb the heat into the slab during the day.
C. A hydronic radiant system should be 20-30% more efficient than forced air.
D. Electric heat to water is 100% efficient. All of the current is being converted to heat in the heating coil, which is transferred to the water, which should all transfer to my slab.
E. Gas furnaces are not 100% efficient, the flue gas exiting the furnace is at a temperature above the air in your home and therefore is not 100% efficient, you lose heat up your vent stack. The most efficient condensing boilers (usually only in hot water heating, not furnaces) will claim as high as 95+%. Again, that's for a gas or propane boiler.
F. My home should have R60 in the ceilings, R38 in the walls. That's quite a bit of insulation.

The pipes in the attic are my domestic supply to my showers, tubs, sinks, lavs. The heating PEX is ran in the slab, not the attic. According to the drawing it is at an unknown depth to me in the slab.

1. This is a single pump system, no valves, just a supply and return manifold. Possible problem # 1, the lengths of the runs are not equal lengths and some are almost 160' difference. There is a simple formula called the Hazen-Williams formula. This formula allows you to calculate head loss (fluid friction, or pressure loss) in a fluid piping system. The difference in length will give you a 4x increase in pressure loss in the long loops compared to the short ones. This can cause a flow imbalance an unequal heating. Also increasing the flow through the system would only square the pressure drop, making the problem worse without a flow setting valve of some sort.
2. Glycol is ONLY recommended if you plan on allowing the pipes to go below freezing. If you add glycol it reduces the heat transfer capability of the water and therefore efficiency. I do not have any intention on freeze proofing the system.
3. Leaks are almost impossible to locate, true. However, this is a closed loop system. The pressure is rock solid without adding water and the valve to the make up regulator is shut. There are no leaks. unless its refilling itself from some ground spring.
4. As stated before, the heating elements have already been pulled and cleaned. They had roughly an egg shell thickness in which we usually generically consider a 5% or so loss in efficiency. This was done before the heating season.

Thanks for the education on the system...and I certainly hope that the system is easily repaired. Having to abandon the system would be terrible.

I am intrigued by the hydronic system and have research it a bit...and energy costs for the system appear to be cheaper but everything I have read there hasn't been much in the way of $20 cheap.

As far as your friend with the $50 electric bill...that is impressive. He must use electricity sparingly, especially in the winter. That type of bill uses only about 20,000 watts per day, and with an AC Unit and water heater burning 3-5000/hr each, or an electric furnace burning at least double that per hour, very efficient. Not counting any lights, computers, washing machines, etc....that's awesome use.

No offense intended to the OP...or jk.

I look forward to reading the result.

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Quoting boiler

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JKWB, excuse the lengthy post, but I believe you missed something over the last few pages:

I'm an industrial boiler and machinery inspector currently. I am a few credits away from both a bachelors in Nuclear Engineering Technology, and Electrical Engineering. I have operated steam systems on nuclear powered submarines greater the power electric turbines at 4500 KW/HR and propulsion turbines capable of over 35 knots., and repaired boilers in the industrial commercial sector for 2 years. I hold a national board inspection commission, and inspection commissions in 6 other states. I look at boilers and turbines that are 600 MW plus every week, the ones that power the electric grid. I know wee bit about how a boiler works. The boiler is working fine.

I did check my bill, .0605 cents per KWH in the winter, plus 2 small fees at about $10 total. A total of just over $183 this month. The average outdoor air temp is 29 degrees below my thermostat setting. That is not very cold at all.

The bill is NOT reasonable considering:
A. I have burned almost 2 cords of wood in the wood stove, I use 4 45 watt fans in the rooms to circulate the air while this is burning (at high, they run in low, and in the direction to circulate the air, not summer direction). This electric draw is minimal maybe
B. The home is also passive solar, I have 8 large glass panes facing south to absorb the heat into the slab during the day.
C. A hydronic radiant system should be 20-30% more efficient than forced air.
D. Electric heat to water is 100% efficient. All of the current is being converted to heat in the heating coil, which is transferred to the water, which should all transfer to my slab.
E. Gas furnaces are not 100% efficient, the flue gas exiting the furnace is at a temperature above the air in your home and therefore is not 100% efficient, you lose heat up your vent stack. The most efficient condensing boilers (usually only in hot water heating, not furnaces) will claim as high as 95+%. Again, that's for a gas or propane boiler.
F. My home should have R60 in the ceilings, R38 in the walls. That's quite a bit of insulation.

The pipes in the attic are my domestic supply to my showers, tubs, sinks, lavs. The heating PEX is ran in the slab, not the attic. According to the drawing it is at an unknown depth to me in the slab.

1. This is a single pump system, no valves, just a supply and return manifold. Possible problem # 1, the lengths of the runs are not equal lengths and some are almost 160' difference. There is a simple formula called the Hazen-Williams formula. This formula allows you to calculate head loss (fluid friction, or pressure loss) in a fluid piping system. The difference in length will give you a 4x increase in pressure loss in the long loops compared to the short ones. This can cause a flow imbalance an unequal heating. Also increasing the flow through the system would only square the pressure drop, making the problem worse without a flow setting valve of some sort.
2. Glycol is ONLY recommended if you plan on allowing the pipes to go below freezing. If you add glycol it reduces the heat transfer capability of the water and therefore efficiency. I do not have any intention on freeze proofing the system.
3. Leaks are almost impossible to locate, true. However, this is a closed loop system. The pressure is rock solid without adding water and the valve to the make up regulator is shut. There are no leaks. unless its refilling itself from some ground spring.
4. As stated before, the heating elements have already been pulled and cleaned. They had roughly an egg shell thickness in which we usually generically consider a 5% or so loss in efficiency. This was done before the heating season.

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You were typing as I was...thanks again for the education.

The frozen lines in the attic...do they run from the boiler or a separate water heater? Could this blockage created by frozen lines affect the floor system at all? Or affect the increase in kWh usage? I do feel bad for what you are going through, however, it's going to be tough to prove a claim against the prior owner.