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Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California
Okay so I'm trying to help my friend pay his traffic citations, we went to the DMV and i have the printout of what needs to be done to release his license.
Please let me know if you believe these (payments due) are or seem excessive and any advice possible to get these lowered.
22349(a) Speeding with a FTA the fine is $1048
23123(a) Talking on phone while driving with a FTA the fine is $900 with no prior convictions of 23123 (a)
Then at another court house
23123(a) with a FTA the fine is $156 (this definitely seems fair)
22350 with a FTA the fine is $815 (this one was not on a highway it was on a main road with a motorcycle cop on a side street according to my friend)
146011 & 4000A1 with a FTA fine is $1568
Any defense advice as well would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Welcome to the fine fiscal shape the state of California is in. I suspect you'll find the fines themselves fairly reasonable, but the costs/surcharges to defray the state budget deficit are killer.
Your "Defense" advise pretty much went out the windows when you decided not to appear for the citations.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Firstly this is for my friend not me. Secondly learn how to spell advice. And thirdly I had a speeding ticket myself for which I failed to appear in court a year later I went to court it was order $380 to be paid and I paid it. So that makes no sense whatsoever how they can ask someone to pay $1048 for a simple speeding ticket the same as I got and I had to pay $380 with an FTA or even $815 is excessive. Then $900 for talking on the phone while driving first time I mean is there any law stating a maximum fine that can be imposed?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
This sounds as if they have gone to collections. So, it is very possible that $500-600 of each total is what the collections agency intends to recover.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
So it'd be possible to negotiate with the collections agency and only pay $500-$600 of each total?
Yeah they are apparently in collections but it still seems very high, maybe it's just me.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
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matt4200
So it'd be possible to negotiate with the collections agency and only pay $500-$600 of each total?
Yeah they are apparently in collections but it still seems very high, maybe it's just me.
Maybe. Or, maybe he can get the matters re-opened by the courts and get the collections dropped. I have heard of that happening, but I cannot say what the mechanics entail. He may simply be screwed and have to live life as a pedestrian.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Haha he's willing to pay the fines.
So he just called today and the collections agency and they said that the earliest court date they could give him is September 13th 2013 that's more than 9 months away?! I think this is some kind of intimidation tactic to make him pay the full amount when it should be much less plus for one of the charges of 4000A1 he has proof of innocence.
Do you think if he just went directly to the court that they would hear the matter?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
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matt4200
Haha he's willing to pay the fines.
So he just called today and the collections agency and they said that the earliest court date they could give him is September 13th 2013 that's more than 9 months away?! I think this is some kind of intimidation tactic to make him pay the full amount when it should be much less plus for one of the charges of 4000A1 he has proof of innocence.
Do you think if he just went directly to the court that they would hear the matter?
The courts are WAAAAY impacted by budget cuts, short staffs, and people who cannot pay their fines. I doubt the court has a walk-in calendar, but it's his time to waste if he wants to give it a go. This is a situation of his making, it is not the court's problem, so he needs to understand that he now has to operate under the court's calendar and not his own. His chance to deal with it in an expeditious manner has long passed
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
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matt4200
Haha he's willing to pay the fines.
So he just called today and the collections agency and they said that the earliest court date they could give him is September 13th 2013 that's more than 9 months away?! I think this is some kind of intimidation tactic to make him pay the full amount when it should be much less plus for one of the charges of 4000A1 he has proof of innocence.
Do you think if he just went directly to the court that they would hear the matter?
The court couldn't hear the matter until September 13th, 2013 if that is the first available court date!
And proof of your innocence for a 4000A1 should have been presented in a timely manner and on or before the date to appear as indicated on the notice to appear. You may not be given the opportunity to present anything at this point, you maybe required to pay the fine!
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
I understand what you guys are saying.
But at the same time take this into consideration:
A person gets cited for a misdemeanor DUI and on his first court date he fails to appear, so the judge issues a bench warrant the individual is found and
Typically arraignment will continue from there on... Into either a plea agreement or onto trial
How is this any different from my friend's case except that because it was a misdemeanor instead of an infraction that the individual with the DUI gets to handle his case faster after failing to appear for arraignment?
Am I correct in assuming that this happens all the time?
And how is this fair at all?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
You started a thread asking how long do citations take to drop off or something to that effect and later indicated that you were in no rush at all, that you could wait the 10 years or so... Now you've got the bug that you have to have your license back NOW and you cannot wait until September?
At any rate, whether you are right or not about the difference between misdemeanors and infractions, it really has little effect on the outcome. It is not going to change the fact that the earliest court date is September 13, 2013.
In fact, the longer you stall making your decision, the farther the date will go to, so next week it might be the 3rd week in September.
The alternative is, of course, to simply pay the fine and get your license released. Then again, if I recall correctly, you counted 10 different citations so this one case isn't really the only thing holding up your license. So why did this one suddenly become the issue whereas the others get not even an honorable mention!?
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matt4200
And how is this fair at all?
See you were initially granted some control of the situation, where you could dictate the exact outcome; and it got to a point in time where you clearly did not want any control over it. You were determined to not comply. Now that you've lost all control over the entire situation, you are crying unfair? No it is not unfair. Not by any stretch of anyone's imagination.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
As I've pointed out before it is not my license I'm attempting to fix.
And I'm saying its unfair how 2 traffic citations that may very well go to the same court and before the same judge one because its a misdemeanor and failure to appear will still be handled at the defendants control while the other because its an infraction isn't allowed the same right???
And in the time since that post my friend has weighed the pros and cons and he has decided to take out a student loan in an attempt to take care of these.
Yea there are about 9 citations in total but only 8 of them are holding up his license.
Of those 8 I told you about 5
1 more is for a 4000 (a) (1) which he attempted to show the officer that he had proof of on the date of the citation but it was in his backpack in the trunk and the officer wrote the citation anyways.
1 is for a 22349 (a) in Beverly Hills for which a court date was set in May because the fine is $1072 which to me seems excessive but there's already a court date set.
The final one is for a 22349 (b) for which another court about 130 miles away is requiring a mandatory appearance in order to be able to pay the fine. But after speaking to the court clerk she told him to write a letter to the judge explaining his circumstances and how he has no means of transportation there and is working and going to college the clerk said its possible for the judge after reading the letter to allow him to pay the fine without the mandatory appearance.
And those are the other 3 you were so curious about.
Okay but let's say I or anyone were to get cited for a traffic violation today I'd most likely have a court date within 90 to 120 days that'd be in may at the latest, so how is it that they claim that the "earliest court date" is in September?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
It's simple, they have a statutory obligation to hear those who DO THE RIGHT THING within 45 days. Getting back on the docket after you voluntarily fail to appear is going to put you at the end of the line.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
But how come people with more serious offenses are heard immediately after failing to appear?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
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matt4200
But how come people with more serious offenses are heard immediately after failing to appear?
Because a priority is given to more serious crimes!
You keep asking these silly entitlement questions as if to suggest that you or your friend are being treated or that you should be treated differently than any one else. You need to understand that the September court date he was given which he presumably turned down was given to the next person after him!
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matt4200
1 is for a 22349 (a) in Beverly Hills for which a court date was set in May because the fine is $1072 which to me seems excessive but there's already a court date set.
If it is excessive by his own doing.
You know at some point in time you need to stop whining about the same thing over and over and over all while these are not your tickets, they're your "friend's". And if there is any lesson to be learned here before, during and after he pays thousands of dollars to get these matters resolved, it is that neither he nor you have a legit reason to complain about a single thing! Neither you nor him have anyone/anything to blame except for him!
Carry on though... Don't let me interrupt!
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Okay I'm "whining" because it's an intimidation tactic. And it's making it hard to help my friend resolve things.
He did take the September court date.
But prior to that earlierier in the day he had spoken to a supervisor at the collections department who blatantly told him if he were to pay off 2 of the 4 tickets that their department handles that the supervisor would personally go to the court and ensure he get a court date by the end of January.
That's what's worth complaining about. It's all bullshit politics and if u scratch one persons back they scratch yours.
The $1072 for a minor speeding ticket doesn't seem excessive considering its in Beverly Hills but considering its in LA county it does.
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Does what I'm saying make any sense or do you feel I'm just blabbering on?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Let us assume for a moment that we were all to agree that the fines and fees are excessive. Let us also assume that we all agree that your friend is being given a raw deal and the system needs to better accommodate him. Let us assume that we all agree with your take on the situation. ... Now what?
Your friend's situation will NOT change one iota if we were to agree with your contention on the unfairness of the situation. He has to deal with the system as it exists, not how he, or you, or any of us here might want it to be.
The bottom line is that this is a situation of your friend's making. He had an opportunity long ago - and every day between then and now - to work on making things right. He CHOSE not to do so. HE created the situation he now finds himself in and has lost his right to complain about it.
Sorry, but he can either work towards addressing the problem, or adjust his lifestyle to becoming a perpetual pedestrian. People DO live full and productive lives without a driver's license. He can, too. Though, I am going to venture a guess that not having a license has not stopped him from driving, has it? And what ticks me off about people like that is that they tend to put the rest of us at greater risk. I, for one, have no sympathy for his plight. I also hope that he is adhering to his suspension and not driving. However, experience tells me that this is often not the case, adn almost never the case when people bitch about the situation they created for themselves. So, hopefully he is walking and riding public transit so as to keep the rest of us safer.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
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matt4200
The $1072 for a minor speeding ticket doesn't seem excessive considering its in Beverly Hills but considering its in LA county it does.
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Does what I'm saying make any sense or do you feel I'm just blabbering on?
$1000 for a speeding ticket of 10 over would be excessive to me; so much so, that if I were found to be needing to pay it for a license I would tell the state that I don't need a license.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
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matt4200
Okay I'm "whining" because it's an intimidation tactic. And it's making it hard to help my friend resolve things.
It is not an intimidation tactic. As I told you a post or two ago, it applies to everyone!
And again, as you have been told several times by several people, the only reason why your friend is in the dilemma he is in is through his own irresponsibility. And so even if it is an intimidation tactic, the only reason he is where he is is because he opted to be here!
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matt4200
But prior to that earlierier in the day he had spoken to a supervisor at the collections department who blatantly told him if he were to pay off 2 of the 4 tickets that their department handles that the supervisor would personally go to the court and ensure he get a court date by the end of January.
That's what's worth complaining about.
Wait... You're complaining that the earliest date is in September, he gets an offer to have his appearance moved up to the current month, even shorter than the 60 days you estimated for a misdemeanor, and you're still complaining. Seriously???
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matt4200
The $1072 for a minor speeding ticket doesn't seem excessive considering its in Beverly Hills but considering its in LA county it does.
Fines, penalties and assessments are pretty much (withing a few dollar differences from some counties to others) standardized and are published under what is called a "Uniform Infraction Misdemeanor bail Schedule"... And so whether this was in Beverly Hills or Florence/Bell, the fine amount should be consistent
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matt4200
Does what I'm saying make any sense or do you feel I'm just blabbering on?
You're clearly frustrated. And yet getting frustrated is not and will not resolve anything. And while it is very big of you to put in all this effort to try and be there helping your friend, maybe you need to step back and let your friend handle his own affairs.
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cdwjava
Sorry, but he can either work towards addressing the problem, or adjust his lifestyle to becoming a perpetual pedestrian. People DO live full and productive lives without a driver's license. He can, too.
Excellent point... And to add to it, look at all the trouble he has gotten himself into WITH a license... 9 citations within who knows how long is not normal!
This actually brought to mind another potential problem. Depending in when all those citation for moving violations were issued, and depending ion how the resulting point count will end up accumulating as a result, the DMV can in fact retroactively enforce a suspension for being a habitual offender. So slight as it may be, he may do all this to get his ;license back only to then receive a letter from the DMV a month or two later telling him that he has a 6 month administrative suspension in 30 days or so...
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Yeah he can move it up if he pays 2 out of 4 tickets which are insanely high.
The law says its supposed to be $20 for a 23123 vC but they want $900
Could a licensed attorney possibly set a sooner court date?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Attorneys, licensed or not, do not set court dates. Courts do.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
The tickets were almost all issued from January to May of 2011.
And he's doing this because he has a pending court case in Malibu for driving suspended and the judge told him he'd get an extremely light sentence like a couple hours community service if he can fix his license with the DMV even if it is only for 30 days.
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cbg
Attorneys, licensed or not, do not set court dates. Courts do.
Okay well maybe a licenses attorney could contact the local ADA or city attorney since most stem out of one county and try to set up court dates so that they may all be settled in the interest of justice.
And it's not the courts that are setting the dates in my friends case it's the collection agency. They have the ability to set it within a couple weeks provided they get what they want which is money. If not they make you wait and wait hoping you forget your court date.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
The collection agency does NOT set a court date. They may be contacting the court to arrange it, but it is the court that sets the date.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Hen how could've he had gotten a court date this month if he paid half of them?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
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matt4200
Hen how could've he had gotten a court date this month if he paid half of them?
Beats me. Any court dates that are set are set by the court.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Do the collections agents have access to the available court dates so that they can request with the court which date to set for which person,?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
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matt4200
Do the collections agents have access to the available court dates so that they can request with the court which date to set for which person,?
Maybe. But, I don't know of any court that grants that much leeway to any entity.
Is this for TRAFFIC court, or for a civil court of some kind?
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
TRAFFIC and the court continues to refer me and my friend to the collections agency to do anything whatsoever.
They (gc services) pretty much handles all financials for the court so I think they're given quite a bit of leeway
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matt4200
TRAFFIC and the court continues to refer me and my friend to the collections agency to do anything whatsoever.
They (gc services) pretty much handles all financials for the court so I think they're given quite a bit of leeway
Probably because the matter has been turned over to the collections agency. If they're given leeway, good for them. But, it is still the court that makes the court date. Since the company seems to be doing the city's and/or county's collections work, they may work with them to facilitate this process. This is a question to ask the court or the collections agency.
See how much easier all of this would have been to deal with many moons ago?!
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
They don't just handle collections they also collect payments that are current and validate community service that is done. So they pretty much handle and money going towards LA county ordered by the courts.
And I'm pretty sure that they can look at the schedule and request whatever date they want (if its open) otherwise it would have been impossible for the supervisor to get my friend a court date by the end of the month
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Well I just learned that apparently there's something you can buy at the court for $10 it's called an abstract he just has to go to each courthouse and buy an abstract at each and he should have his license back by Wednesday depending on how long it takes the DMV to process!!!
This is what I call awesome advice from a lawyer^^^
Did you guys know about this???
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matt4200
Well I just learned that apparently there's something you can buy at the court for $10 it's called an abstract he just has to go to each courthouse and buy an abstract at each and he should have his license back by Wednesday depending on how long it takes the DMV to process!!!
This is what I call awesome advice from a lawyer^^^
Did you guys know about this???
An abstract is just a summary report about something that happened in court. These are transmitted to the DMV, so that it can take various actions depending upon the information received. Without knowing more about this lawyer's strategy, or what section of the vehicle code these abstracts are covered by, it's hard to say whether this is true or not. There's no portion of the vehicle code that says you can just obtain an abstract for $10 and get your license back.
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themadnorwegian
An abstract is just a summary report about something that happened in court. These are transmitted to the DMV, so that it can take various actions depending upon the information received. Without knowing more about this lawyer's strategy, or what section of the vehicle code these abstracts are covered by, it's hard to say whether this is true or not. There's no portion of the vehicle code that says you can just obtain an abstract for $10 and get your license back.
Given this occurred over the weekend, I'm betting it was probably pulled off of some ticket attorney's website. In fact, I'm pretty positive it is because I found one that says just such a thing by searching google for "driving abstract ca." For me, it was the second result. It claims that the dmv abstract is an email sent to the court saying that you are addressing the violations that caused the FTA and the court will magically remove the hold/FTA. I'm not going to link to the site cause I'm not in the business of giving shysters business.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
Well it's something you can purchase from the court at the price of $10 to clear up a 4059.5 vC hold while awaiting your court date.
YOU CANNOT GET IT ANYWHERE EXCEPT THE COURTHOUSE not online or over the phone so it wouldn't be giving anyone business.
It doesn't magically clear holds up. It just lets the DMV know to release the hold because you are dealing with the issue with the court and you have a set court date.
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I'm taking him to the courthouses right now I will keep you guys posted on what happens
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Ventura court set a date for tomorrow fastest easiest court ever.!
The Chatsworth courthouse we waited in line for an hour and he bought the abstracts 3 of them for 3 holds from that court and set a court date $10 each and 3 of the holds we're released.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
There is no section of the vehicle code numbered 4059.5. Did you mean 40509.5? If so, please explain how your friend managed to get out of this. That section of the code says that an arrest warrant may be issued if "The driver's record shows an unresolved charge that the defendant is in violation of his or her written promise to appear for one or more other alleged violations of the law." Moreover, it also says that the hold won't be released until "the case in which the promise was given is adjudicated or the person who has violated the court order appears in court and satisfies the order of the court..."
Did your friend still have to pay his fines, or set a date to appear in front of a judge. I cannot believe that you could fail to appear and can escape the consequences just by paying $10.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
He didn't escape it he just got the hold taken off while waiting for his court date at 2 courts so far he still has to handle matters at other courts and so far getting an abstract has only worked in LA county Ventura won't release it unless a judge sees him which is tomorrow
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And it's been confirmed with the DMV the holds from the 2 courts are taken off
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It's called an abstract you can look it up.... You can only get it from a court after you've failed to appear and arranged for another court date. YOU cannot get it if you've failed to appear more than once on a violation.
But the line at the court house is crazy took us like an hour and a half at one court then another hour at another just in line!
Once you get to the window it's very simple though
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matt4200
They don't just handle collections they also collect payments that are current and validate community service that is done. So they pretty much handle and money going towards LA county ordered by the courts.
Unless this is something that happened after the last wave of layoffs then this is not true. GC Services has always and forever been simply a contractor that the L A County Superior court contracts to collect on outstanding FTPs. But to say that they can handle tasks that are in my opinion, "clerk of the court tasks", the court must be bending some serious rules here. But so what.... This is none of your concern really. If you want an earlier date, then comply with their request, if you don't then don't. Pretty simple! What is even more simple is that you should not assume this will make your situation or your friend's any different.
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matt4200
And I'm pretty sure that they can look at the schedule and request whatever date they want (if its open) otherwise it would have been impossible for the supervisor to get my friend a court date by the end of the month
Of course they have access to the court docket. How else would they be able to tell you that the first available date is in September? Think about it.... And again whether they do or don't, quit whining about every single aspect of this dilemma that your irresponsible "friend" put himself in. GC Services and their responsibilities, duties, abilities... etc, are independent of the violations these citations were issued for, or the decision to skip appearing in court as was required.
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matt4200
Well I just learned that apparently there's something you can buy at the court for $10 it's called an abstract he just has to go to each courthouse and buy an abstract at each and he should have his license back by Wednesday depending on how long it takes the DMV to process!!!
This is what I call awesome advice from a lawyer^^^
Did you guys know about this???
An abstract can in fact be issued by the court once an FTA case is scheduled for a court appearance. This is only done once and so if a 2nd FTA happens on the same case then it will take nothing short of a miracle to get an abstract to be issued no matter how long the wait is for a court date.
And yes, I knew about this, in fact, here:
40508.6.
The superior court in any county may establish administrative assessments, not to exceed ten dollars ($10), for clerical and administrative costs incurred for the following activities:
(a) An assessment for the cost of recording and maintaining a record of the defendant's prior convictions for violations of this code. The assessment shall be payable at the time of payment of a fine or when bail is forfeited for any subsequent violations of this code other than parking, pedestrian, or bicycle violations.
(b) An assessment for all defendants whose driver's license or automobile registration is attached or restricted pursuant to Section 40509 or 40509.5, to cover the cost of notifying the Department of Motor Vehicles of the attachment or restriction.
You should also know that once you clear all 40509.5 holds from all cases with the DMV, the defendant must then go to the DMV, pay the $55 administrative fee to get his/her license reinstated.
But, when you whine too much about meaningless crap that no one has any conrtol over, important matters like ^that^ get lost in the all the brown-nmess that is around!
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
And, of course, if he is unable to pay all of the accumulated fines and fees assessed after the new court date, he will once again be suspended.
I hope he has gotten a loan to pay off everything or he'll be right back here again, but without this one free shot to get a temporary clearance.
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themadnorwegian
There is no section of the vehicle code numbered 4059.5. Did you mean 40509.5? If so, please explain how your friend managed to get out of this. That section of the code says that an arrest warrant may be issued if "The driver's record shows an unresolved charge that the defendant is in violation of his or her written promise to appear for one or more other alleged violations of the law." Moreover, it also says that the hold won't be released until "the case in which the promise was given is adjudicated or the person who has violated the court order appears in court and satisfies the order of the court..."
While I might agree that there is a certain level of fudge in the underlying story here, I think the courts (at least in L A County) are pretty lenient of the first portion of that code section that you cited, and that they do use a pretty liberal interpretation of the part about the second part in that they will equate an appearance with the clerk as well as a request for a court date as satisfying the court order to fulfill the promise that one makes by signing the Notice to Appear...
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themadnorwegian
Did your friend still have to... or set a date to appear in front of a judge.
^this^
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themadnorwegian
I cannot believe that you could fail to appear and can escape the consequences just by paying $10.
Yeah, its sort of a last chance to straighten up, straighten out and get your %$&? in gear. You are correct in assuming that the costs and consequences are typically high when absconding. ANd here is how this is anticipated to play out:
Fact is, most people and with their court appearance being set up for months from the date they get abstracted, they are bound to miss that second date and when that happens, now you've got months of waiting before your second FTA is scheduled, you've got no chance of getting an abstract unless and until you either pay th efull fine and/or wait the several months before a new court date and you've got notations on your file that might lead a reasonable person to assume that you may have manipulated the court process when in fact it was possible that you had no intention of appearing or clearing the underlying matter... And so when you finally decide to grace the court with your presence, you will literally see steam coming out of the judge's ears. :D
^This^ is pretty typical of someone who has ONE court FTA... This guy has NINE! I think common sense would dictate if he was organized and had some sort of direction in his life, he would not have ended up with nine FTAs! So in a sense, this is more of an investment that will eventually pay off in multiple of community service hours that this guy could get away with on the first go around.
Lastly, on the second go around, matt's wish might come true in that if a second round of FTA's were to start, judge's are more likely to start issuing warrants for a second and subsequent pending FTA.
And no, I am not being judgmental nor am I acting holier than thou... I am just telling you what usually happens...
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cdwjava
I hope he has gotten a loan to pay off everything or he'll be right back here again, but without this one free shot to get a temporary clearance.
If he did get a loan, Matty will be back here asking how his buddy can defend himself from a civil suit over failing to pay the loan.
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Re: Multiple Traffic Citations with Excessive Fines
And for the "Cliff Notes for what I posted", Carl is, as always, happy to help out!
We'll calll these the "Carl Notes":
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cdwjava
And, of course, if he is unable to pay all of the accumulated fines and fees assessed after the new court date, he will once again be suspended.
I hope he has gotten a loan to pay off everything or he'll be right back here again, but without this one free shot to get a temporary clearance.