Medical Marijuana and Probation

My question involves criminal law for the state of: California

So after discussing my use of medical marijuana with my probation officer she told me that because recently the County Probation Department has realized how easy it is to obtain a physicians recommendation for the use of medicinal cannabis they have decided to not recognize any physicians recommendations. According to SB 420 and People V. Tilehkooh I should be in the clear but she says that they will only accept "prescriptions for medical marijuana use from the county health board". Can she do that or not?

According to SB 420, a recommendation is valid if it is issued by an "Attending Physician", which is an individual who possesses a license in good standing to practice medicine or osteopathy issued by the Medical Board of California or the Osteopathic Medical Board of California. Any physician who satisfies this criterion may issue a valid recommendation.

Whether the county probation department is willing to recognize it or not I have according to SB 420 and the compassionate use act of 1996 a valid recommendation.

So my question is am I in the clear?

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Quoting matt4200

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My question involves criminal law for the state of: California

So after discussing my use of medical marijuana with my probation officer she told me that because recently the County Probation Department has realized how easy it is to obtain a physicians recommendation for the use of medicinal cannabis they have decided to not recognize any physicians recommendations. According to SB 420 and People V. Tilehkooh I should be in the clear but she says that they will only accept "prescriptions for medical marijuana use from the county health board". Can she do that or not?

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Apparently they can. What it appears she is saying that you can get your recommendation, but then you need to apply for the state issued DHS card through the county. If you have a medical need and can get a recommendation, why not get the "get out of jail free card?"

The problem with recommendations is that if the Probation department attempts to verify it, they will not get an answer. At least that has been the experience of most probation and DA's offices in the state. Not to mention that I can make a good looking recommendation on my home computer and even get a burner phone with a verification number if I want to. There is no way to verify a recommendation, and in some counties (such as mine) the response rate from the providers is zero percent. Odd ... it seems that the doctors that tend to make their career out of issuing these things are not willing to admit that they have ever issued a recommendation to a particular patient ... hmmm.

Bottom line is that you have some choices. You can ignore the probation officer's advice and risk arrest and incarceration for the remainder of your term. Or, you can get the DHS card. Your call.

Okay but if she wishes to verify it why not just go to the actual physicians office and ask? That simple

My recommendation is signed by a licensed physician in CA. The state DHS card is not mandatory only voluntary.

So if she is able to verify my recommendation would she have to consider it sufficient or not is my question?

Also if it were to be a violation it would only be considered a violation under the part that says do not violate any state local or federal laws. Well the federal law is not applicable to consumption or ingestion of marijuana, only it's possession. So if I were to test positive for THC on a drug test would it be considered still a violation or no?

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At this moment I can't afford it but hope to apply for one in January. But in the mean time can she as a probation officer refuse to accept a licensed physicians recommendation simply because it is considered easy to get one?

I suffer from Depression, anxiety, sleep depravation, and Post traumatic Stress disorder to which medical cannabis provides relief without any risk of addiction or thoughts of suicide which many anti depressants will give as a side effect.

It is not her job to chase doctors down so you can get high. The court and probation officer are permitted to set terms you must comply with. No, you are not in the clear.

Matt, part of the problem with the recommendations is that physicians do not tend to verify them when asked by a prosecutor or even a probation officer, I imagine. Because there is no way to verify them, hey can be seen as unreliable. This is also why each county tends to have its own policy on how to address these matters. The state card is the only way to get a guaranteed protection under the law.

I'd like to restate my question hoping for an answer pleaseeeee thanks

So if she is able to verify my recommendation would she have to consider it sufficient or not is my question?

Also if it were to be a violation it would only be considered a violation under the part that says do not violate any state local or federal laws. Well the federal law is not applicable to consumption or ingestion of marijuana, only it's possession. So if I were to test positive for THC on a drug test would it be considered still a violation or no?

they are not going to run around attempting to validate the issue. If your doctor cannot be reached via to confirm the recommedation via telephone or mail, they will not get a confirmation.

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Also if it were to be a violation it would only be considered a violation under the part that says do not violate any state local or federal laws. Well the federal law is not applicable to consumption or ingestion of marijuana, only it's possession. So if I were to test positive for THC on a drug test would it be considered still a violation or no?

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if you can explain how it got in you without you possessing it, you might have an argument. Since it is not going to be accepted that it magically appeared in your system, it will be presumed you did possess it. That means you did violate the federal law.

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I suffer from Depression, anxiety, sleep depravation, and Post traumatic Stress disorder to which medical cannabis provides relief without any risk of addiction or thoughts of suicide which many anti depressants will give as a side effect.

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you claim you suffer from these issues or have been diagnosed by a doctor as afflicted by these issues?

and ptsd? what is that from?

sleep deprivation? Go to bed. You will no longer be deprived of sleep. Sleep deprivation is not getting enough sleep. It is not a malady of it's own. It can be the result of some other issue though.

sounds like a made up list of symptoms rather than any diagnosis of medical issues.

At some point you need to either decide to abide by the rules you are faced with rather than attempt to find some loophole around them or risk being violated. It amazes me how hard some people work simply to be allowed to get high.

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Quoting matt4200

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I'd like to restate my question hoping for an answer pleaseeeee thanks

So if she is able to verify my recommendation would she have to consider it sufficient or not is my question?

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If there was some form of independent verification possible, the county probation department and the court might find that acceptable. We do not know the policy an practice in the OP's county nor is there any process for independent verification and - as I mentioned - most physicians will not verify these recommendations. Some say it is because the physicians that provide these things keep shoddy records and issue them like candy, others believe the physicians are afraid of the feds or the state coming after them. Whatever the reason, the only safe way to veriy them is through the state system.

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Also if it were to be a violation it would only be considered a violation under the part that says do not violate any state local or federal laws. Well the federal law is not applicable to consumption or ingestion of marijuana, only it's possession. So if I were to test positive for THC on a drug test would it be considered still a violation or no?

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A probation violation can result in the revocation of probation and re-sentnecing to include going to jail or prison for the balance of the full term.

And I have often found it odd that some people say they need to use marijuana for sleeping disorders since one of the effects of marijuana can be a rise in the pulse rate ... usually a stimulating activity.

My question was not if they can validate it my question was when it is validated are they required then to accept it.

And they cannot prove possession simply by a positive urine test I could have been with friends and eaten a brownie unbeknownst to me it contained cannibis. And they would have to prove not just presumed.

Then if u really want to ****ing know why I have PTSD which is an umbrella term for many diagnoses diseases one of which Rape trauma syndrome is what I ****ing suffer from. From the age of 6 to 14 I was sexually ****ing abused by a family member.

I am 19 now.

I have trouble getting to sleep at night and marijuana helps that

I have diagnosed depression because of the PTSD as well as my mom having passes away when I was 7. Since then a few more family members I was close to have passed furthering my depression.

And my anxiety I attributed to I would guess my repeated child abuse and traumatic life experiences.

Okay so please I'm asking you not to joke or say people don't need the help of things like medical cannabis because for me it honestly does help without the life threatening side effects. And is used in moderation.

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Well it does depend if you use indica or sativa these are the two main types. Indica helps me to sleep much better. Otherwise I lay awake for hours :(

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Also the violation the would be considering would be moot if it were only a positive THC test. Because the violation would be claimed as a violation of federal law but the only federal law in the books on marijauana is for simple possession not consumption or digestion.

Am I right in assuming this Carl? If not please elaborate

The conditions of probation that include prohibition against drug use prohibit ANY illicit drug use. The presence of THC in the system proves use. And, before you try to claim that they could have walked through a room where someone was smoking, the cutoff for a "positive" test would be much higher than casual and incidental contact. The USE is the violation, not the possession ... though I'd be surprised if you could argue that a positive test did not indicate some previous possession. But, that is not what he'd be charged with, so possession is a moot point unless he's holding when he gets popped for the probation violation.

Actually it's not a term not to use drugs I have a no alcohol term search terms and a term that says obey all state local and federal laws.

Which is why I bring up the point about consumption. Because that would be the violation they would claim if there was one.

So I'd be on solid ground with a positive THC test but none in my possession until I can afford a DHS appointment?

People like JK shouldn't be posting on here I mean if a person were to say I have cancer and need my medical marijuana he'd probably say well whoop de doo what'd you do to get cancer? Smoke too many cigarettes? Well that's your fault too bad hope chemo doesn't kill ya

F'ing rudeness

And Carl are my symptoms fine enough for you? Jeez it's like people assume that because I'm a college student I couldn't possibly have a serious medical or mental illness for which medical marijauana could provide relief

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What if it was issued through a really legitimate physician like Cannamed they keep really good records and would definitely be able to verify which is why I keep bringing up the issue of if the probation department is able to verify it are they then forced to accept it?

Only the local probation department and the court can say what may or may not be acceptable with regards to a "recommendation."

As I said, the only SURE way to get a pass on marijuana possession and use is the state card.

And, strictly speaking, "consumption" of marijuana is not a crime - possession is. However, the presence of THC does not result in a possession charge, though it can result in a probation violation. Understand one can be violated off of probation without committing a crime.

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Quoting cdwjava

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Only the local probation department and the court can say what may or may not be acceptable with regards to a "recommendation."

As I said, the only SURE way to get a pass on marijuana possession and use is the state card.

And, strictly speaking, "consumption" of marijuana is not a crime - possession is. However, the presence of THC does not result in a possession charge, though it can result in a probation violation. Understand one can be violated off of probation without committing a crime.

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But if none of my terms say no illicit drug use only alcohol and I test positive for THC then the only violation they could possibly go for would be the violation of federal law correct?

I'm not trying to get a "pass" I would just like to use my medication in peace as any other patient of medicine prescribed by a licensed physician would like to do.

Well According to SB 420, a recommendation is valid if it is issued by an "Attending Physician", which is an individual who possesses a license in good standing to practice medicine or osteopathy issued by the Medical Board of California or the Osteopathic Medical Board of California. Any physician who satisfies this criterion may issue a valid recommendation.

<Sigh> Like I said, take it up with your probation department and the court. If you want to risk jail, then knock yourself out and ignore the PO. Maybe you will get violateds, maybe you won't. Entiely your call.

Okay the only thing I'd like to know (sigh) is can the probation department legally say we refuse to accept any physicians recommendations other than the state DHS cards which are only voluntary. While SB420 says any recommendation signed by a licensed physician is valid.

Even if they are through a legitimate physicians office that is not Shady and can be easily verified. This is all I'm trying to ask.

Thank you

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Here's the more important question Matty, are you willing to go the distance on this? Let's say you think you are right and they think they are right. You use, they drop you and you're dirty. They violate you. For the sake of argument, let's further say the court then agrees with them and tosses your ass back in jail. You then have to hire an attorney to try and get you out of the mess YOU created. Let's have some more fun, shall we? Your appeal is denied. Look's like you are headed for the CASC. You get there and they finally decide, yeah you were right.

Congratulations, you've may have created precedent-setting caselaw! All it cost was tens of thousands of dollars, some time in jail and possibly your reputation and/or some of your friends. At the cheapest, it'd still cost you some time in jail and possibly a change in your probation terms to include no drug use.

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Quoting free9man

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Here's the more important question Matty, are you willing to go the distance on this? Let's say you think you are right and they think they are right. You use, they drop you and you're dirty. They violate you. For the sake of argument, let's further say the court then agrees with them and tosses your ass back in jail. You then have to hire an attorney to try and get you out of the mess YOU created. Let's have some more fun, shall we? Your appeal is denied. Look's like you are headed for the CASC. You get there and they finally decide, yeah you were right.

Congratulations, you've may have created precedent-setting caselaw! All it cost was tens of thousands of dollars, some time in jail and possibly your reputation and/or some of your friends. At the cheapest, it'd still cost you some time in jail and possibly a change in your probation terms to include no drug use.

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I'm not looking to rock boats or anything People V. Tilehkooh ensures my right to use medical marijuana while on probation. And SB 420 says all it takes for a recommendation for it to be valid is being signed by a licensed physician.

If it is too easy to get then have the state health board crack down it is not my problem.

I just want to know if I am on solid legal ground in notifying her that she cannot refuse to accept a valid physicians statement if it can be verified.

matt, concerning your "issues".


my apologies. Obviously you are a young person and the claims you made are a bit unusual for a person your age. They are maladies often invoked by those abusing the MM allowance as they are difficult to prove. Given the lax enforcement of the laws in your state concerning MM, it is an easy street to getting high with impunity.

Beyond that, I can tell you from knowledge of people I am very familiar with, there are often means to treat your issues that actually have a curative value. The MM as you use it is simply treatment for the symptom and provides no cure. Given the issues, I am confident in saying you would prefer a cure over continual treatment if it is available, would you not?

as to the case cited; it does appear to support your use of MM BUT that does not mean it is as simple as waiving a copy of the case in front of your PO's, the police', or DA's, or the judge's nose and you walk away. You could still be exposed to lengthy incarceration while fighting the issue.


As I said prior, they do not have to go to great lengths to verify your recommendation. If they make a couple calls and cannot obtain the verification, they can act on the basis that the recommendation is not verifiable. Even if it is eventually verified, they may act, initially, as it isn't.

at this point, as I see it, it is up to you. If you can achieve your goal without setting in jail or spending 10's of thousands of dollars, then have at it. If you are faced with opposition from those that are able to toss you in jail, you might want to reconsider your actions. I don't know what this MMIC cost but I cannot see it as being so expensive it is beyond the average person. That suggests you do not have a lot of money to throw at this issue should you be pushed.

There is no absolute cure for sleep depravation anxiety PTSD and depression and certainly not one without side effects.

My allegations are easily verifiable by any law enforcement because I was a minor it was required reported to whichever place in CA requires it.

I use MM in moderation probably a gram to an eighth of an ounce per week. $10 to $35

I'm not a drug abuser I use it solely because it is reasonably priced easy to access and treats all of my diagnoses illnesses.

And JK you shouldn't just assume things about people.

After reading through all this, the thing I get outta it is that the PO has expressed a condition that will allow the use of med maryjane.

".......I should be in the clear but she says that they will only accept "prescriptions for medical marijuana use from the county health board"......."

Soooooo, why not simply comply with this requirement? Unfortunately, due to your choosing to do something of a criminal nature, you're at the 'mercy' of criminal justice system. Therefore, you must comply with whatever conditions and stipulations that are conditional to your predicament.

So go see the folks at the county health board, take all of your medical history records and doctors recommendations for treatments/medications, then that should be that about that.

You end up in full compliance just by simply following the conditions of your probation and administered by your PO. What a concept huh?

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matt4200;672633]There is no absolute cure for sleep depravation anxiety PTSD and depression and certainly not one without side effects.

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yes, there is. Arguing there isn't without investigating the matter gets me back to the people that find excuses to use marijuana.

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And JK you shouldn't just assume things about people

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I apply the most common facts to a situation.

What is this reasonably priced cure then for all of these diagnoses' ?

And souperdave I will get one it just costs too much at the moment. I am just trying to think about in the mean time. And why that they would not allow a recommendation of it is verifiable.

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Quoting matt4200

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There is no absolute cure for sleep depravation anxiety PTSD and depression and certainly not one without side effects.

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Marijuana isn't even close to being "without side effects". For most people claiming "medicinal use", it's the side effects they're actually after.

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matt4200;672644]What is this reasonably priced cure then for all of these diagnoses' ?

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Who said reasonably priced? Since you cannot afford the ~$150 for a MMIC card, I would think any treatment that is not free would not be reasonable to you.

It's $211 in my county for the MMIC but since I cannot afford your cure I will continue my treatment that people claim is not working.

As a probation officer, I will tell you that I would definitely violate your case for use of marijuana. There is no evidence that smoking weed is the only way to cure curb your issues. A recommendation is just that. As quickly as that physician recommended weed, I'd find another that would recommend more traditional medications and other treatment therapies.

Whatever issues brough your conditions to the forefront have and will not be solved just because a probation department has been duped into allowing you to smoke up. If there are other portion of your treatment regimen that you have neglected to proivde in your post, I would argue that those additional therapies coupled with traditional prescription medicatoins, have worked effectively and medical marijuana does not have the same longevity of study to allow you to be a test dummy for it's potential uses.

To make it short...I, in my jurisdication, do not have to abide by that doctor's recommendation.

As a sidenote, weed is a depressant. As such, I would never allow you to use such a narcotic while under my watch. As studies have shown alcohol and marijuana to be hindrances to recovery from you aforementioned illnesses. Good luck with trying to disuade a judge from that argument.

Well I happen to live in California and the CA Appellate court decided that Probation Departments cannot violate individuals for the use of medicinal marijuana provided they have a valid physicians recommendation.

Personally, for me it is cheap and effective which is why I use it. If I had tons of money to blow or others would pay on my behalf I would most likely try cures for my illnesses but sadly I do not.

Because of People V. Tilehkooh if an individual is on probation and gets a DHS card in CA they are golden legal wise or so Carl says.

Note that in Tilehkooh the appellant had provided a "notarized physician's statement" from the doctor along with the recommendation - this is substantially different than merely showing a recommendation that simply cannot be verified.

The context of a case is important.

This is why I had stated in my comment if you get a DHS card you are golden. And not simply a recommendation. Because the DHS card is about 100x better legally speaking then just having a doctors recommendation.

Am I correct on saying this?

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And btw a physicians statement is the recommendation. At least that's what my rec says.

There is a difference between a recommendation that any yoyo with a computer could manufacture and a NOTARIZED statement saying that "I, Dr. Feelgood, have issued a cannabis recommendation to Matt4200 for his serious medical condition." In the case you cited the defendant had BOTH, and that seems to be a compelling portion of the court's reasoning.

I'm looking at mine now it says physicians statement and recommendation California Health and Safety Code section 11362.5 my name recommendation id# issue date

A long statement which is including ,"this recommendation confirms the fact that the patient whose name and information indicated herein was evaluated by a physician who is licensed to practice medicine in the state of California and whose name and license number are indicated below, recommends that this patient whose name is indicated herein qualifies for the use of medical marijuana (I.e cannabis) for medical purposes under California health and safety code section 11362.5 , compassionate use act of 1996(I.e. prop 215 and senate bill 420)

It goes on further but I won't bore you with that.
Then it lists a phone number for 24/7 live verification and a website for 24/7 online verification.

Then it lists the physicians info Jeffrey Patrick Olsen m.d. License number C54205?and his address and phone number.


But to recap a DHS card is still about 100 times better than any statement or recommendation legally speaking?

Hey, the DHS card is still the near-guarantee where the recommendation may or may not hold as much weight. The recommendation is a much greater risk than the DHS card. Best choice would be to use something else. Next best choice might be to keep the marijuana at home, and don't carry it around! Since the cops cannot go busting in doors simply for people smoking MJ, you'd be in the clear unless landlords, roommates or neighbors cause problems.

Wait so even with th DHS card you aren't guaranteed?????

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I mean for any state law enforcement officials it should be a guarantee to be able to use and possess cannabis if you have a DHS card without any possibility of problems

(Aside from DEA)

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Quoting matt4200

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Wait so even with th DHS card you aren't guaranteed?????

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As long as you are within the state standards, you should be. However, under most ANY circumstance there is always the chance - even if small - that an officer will err and make an arrest or issue a cite. I try not to make an absolute statement that someone will be okay if they have the card because there might be some circumstance under which they might not be. Typically, the DHS card should grant you a pass provided you are not holding too much dope.

Under what circumstances would an officer constitute a legal arrest for possession of under an ounce of medicinal cannabis while an individual possess a county DHS card while in the state of CA?

Just curious

Oh also question..... Medical Marijuana cannot be prescribed only recommended is that correct?

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Quoting matt4200

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Under what circumstances would an officer constitute a legal arrest for possession of under an ounce of medicinal cannabis while an individual possess a county DHS card while in the state of CA?

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I can hypothesize until the cows come home ... none leap to mind right now, but that does not mean that some circumstance might not appear. As i said, the odds are slim, but anything might be possible. If I claim that you WILL not be arrested with a DHS card, I could be proven wrong. In general you SHOULD not be, and ultimately you should prevail in any court challenge though the DA would almost certainly drop the matter when the DHS card got brought into it.

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Oh also question..... Medical Marijuana cannot be prescribed only recommended is that correct?

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Correct.

Okay and one last question on this issue ..... Say a state or local law enforcement officer really really hates you, could they slap some cuffs on you while you are in possession of marijuana with a DHS card and wait for a federal officer to arrest you federally?

Not asking for the odds of this ^^ just asking do they have the authority to do this?

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Quoting matt4200

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Okay and one last question on this issue ..... Say a state or local law enforcement officer really really hates you, could they slap some cuffs on you while you are in possession of marijuana with a DHS card and wait for a federal officer to arrest you federally?

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That might be difficult as the detention/arrest would seem to be without cause. But, I'll tell ya, there really are not any roving DEA patrols so it just is not going to happen. Now, in places along the border, that might be possible as the ICE (aka USBP) patrols may be in the area. Any such detention for the feds would almost certainly be legally fragile in CA courts. Unless the feds are with the detaining officers as some sort of narcotics task force, I don't see this happening.

Your original question aksed specifically about probation and marijuana. You were told that the department does not have to recognize a recommendation from a doctor. All these hypotheticals about law enforcement and far fetched interactions should be irrelevant from this point on. The law enforcement agency that has direct and consistent contact with you has informed you that your recommendation verification will not prevent them from violating you and allowing a judge to decide your fate. Why test that?

Because the law says so? Haha