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What Can You Do if the Police Won't Give You Records

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  • 11-23-2012, 12:33 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Can City Council Overrule Pd Denial of Request
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    That is what an investigation should uncover. We have to have evidence of wrongdoing to get them just to look? There is a long list of mistakes. As long as they can keep the information secret they can make us look like pot stirrers and conspiracy theorists.

    How do you know there were mistakes when you do not HAVE the information from the report?

    Has your "witness" gone forward to the DA or the team investigating the incident to tell them what he heard? My guess is that he has not. And, fi he has, maybe they DID look into uit.

    As I said, you can ASK the AG to look into the matter, but don't expect that to happen absent some clear evidence of malfeasance on the part of the DA.

    Quote:

    If I put all of my concerns in writing, in an organized, dispassionate way, can I get it past the Public Inquiry Unit?
    Maybe. Maybe not. We can't possibly know. The AG lacks the resources to look into every complaint they receive. Heck, they haven't the resources to look into many of the important ones!
  • 11-23-2012, 07:32 PM
    huntsab
    Re: Can City Council Overrule Pd Denial of Request
    It just keeps getting worse... "Mistakes are not the same as willful malfeasance. You need SOMETHING beyond the scope of what you've mentioned if there's going to be an investigation started." I have to have proof of intent?

    Mistakes can have the same horrible effect on an investigation whether it is intentional, or not. Failing to find mistakes is malfeasance.

    The killers are men with police powers. Getting this particular case wrong is more than failing to get justice for the victim or losing in a personal way. It has consequences far beyond the victim and his family. Both police have been defendants in federal civil court for using excessive force on handcuffed arrestees in their custody.


    We have to stop, get out of our vehicles, submit to arrest to anyone with a uniform and a badge while bad police hide behind confidentiality clauses and special exemptions and DAs sell us out for the public safety vote.
  • 11-23-2012, 07:36 PM
    free9man
    Re: Can City Council Overrule Pd Denial of Request
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post

    Mistakes can have the same horrible effect on an investigation whether it is intentional, or not. Failing to find mistakes is malfeasance.

    No, it is not. Malfeasance would be finding the mistakes and ignoring them in order to cover something up. Failing to find mistakes, assuming they exist, would at the worst be shoddy investigative work.
  • 11-23-2012, 08:04 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: Can City Council Overrule Pd Denial of Request
    Quote:

    Quoting huntsab
    View Post
    It just keeps getting worse... "Mistakes are not the same as willful malfeasance. You need SOMETHING beyond the scope of what you've mentioned if there's going to be an investigation started." I have to have proof of intent?

    You have to have something more than, "We don't like the DA's decision." The AG is NOT going to intercede in a DA's charging decision simply because some people do not like his discretion on the issue. So, yes, you'd have to something compelling to show that there is a need for a second look at the issue, or that the DA was not able to come to a legitimate conclusions as a result of bias or malfeasance. Now, the DA can always ask the AG to take a look - this is what most often happens when they look into issues that could second-guess the DA. Rarely does the AG step in to seek to take a case that the DA has not taken up. The feds are more likely to do that ... provided some wrongdoing can be identified or is strongly suspected.

    Quote:

    Mistakes can have the same horrible effect on an investigation whether it is intentional, or not. Failing to find mistakes is malfeasance.
    And if none are found, does that mean the reviewer has committed malfeasance of some kind as well? Where does the review end? Let's face it, so conclusion other than one that hangs the officer(s) involved out to dry will satisfy you or most of the detractors in this incident. Anything short of that will continue to be under suspicion and will find fertile ground for conspiracy theories. At some point the matter has to be put to rest. You are clearly not objective in the issue and cannot consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, there was no criminal wrongdoing here.

    The heirs of the person who died can sue the police and the officer(s) in civil court and can pursue the evidence that way. They might even be able to get this mystery witness's testimony in to that trial. And, if some compelling evidence comes forward of wrongdoing, the AG might THEN decide to look into it. However, since more than 90% of these issues settle out of court, I suspect that the matter will go away even in the civil side.

    If this witness did NOT report what he heard to the authorities looking into the matter, and has waited until NOW to say something, then anything he has to say is already going to be greatly suspect ... it will be viewed with great skepticism by anyone looking into it.

    Quote:

    We have to stop, get out of our vehicles, submit to arrest to anyone with a uniform and a badge while bad police hide behind confidentiality clauses and special exemptions and DAs sell us out for the public safety vote.
    Nothing I say could possibly convince you that there exists no vast conspiracy, so I won't try.

    But, as a legal issue, yes, you have to comply with an officer who has you detained. Failure to do so can result in arrest and even the possibility of force being utilized to affect that arrest. If you resist, you do so at the risk of greater penalty because the burden to show that you were being unlawfully arrested would be upon you and that is a rather high burden to reach. And, the "bad police" do not hide behind the confidentiality of the law any more than the good police officers can. Confidentiality applies to personnel records, not to the public actions of the officer. People who were present can talk about their actions all they want ... the media can repeat those reports ... and the courts can call all the parties to testify as to the actions of that night - even the officers themselves. The law simply prohibits the agency from releasing confidential personnel records and information that might be detrimental to an ongoing criminal investigation.

    As I mentioned, the only ones with the potential to pry anything loose in this are the heirs of the deceased. THEY can file suit and have attorneys subpoena all sorts of information and they can TRY to obtain the internal investigation ... maybe. However, if there was a shooting review conducted by an outside agency, that is likely NOT an internal personnel record and should be able to be released at some point after the matter is closed.
  • 11-27-2012, 12:21 PM
    huntsab
    Re: What Can You Do if the Police Won't Give You Records
    "Has your "witness" gone forward to the DA or the team investigating the incident to tell them what he heard? My guess is that he has not. And, fi he has, maybe they DID look into it."

    "If this witness did NOT report what he heard to the authorities looking into the matter, and has waited until NOW to say something, then anything he has to say is already going to be greatly suspect ... it will be viewed with great skepticism by anyone looking into it."

    Did the witness go to the agency conducting the "outside" investigation-the very people he heard making that statement: an investigator from the DA's Office to other investigators from the DA's Office? NO! Many people would not know what to do in that situation. That is one of the effects of long term corruption-people give up.

    That's the reason I suggested an anonymous tip line. So witnesses who fear retaliation could, at least, give them some information, safely. I am sure this is not an ideal way to get information. But in this particular case it might have helped. The way I found in this case-an individual being nosy and asking questions- one thing leads to another. That's the way I picture investigations work. You don't just sit at a desk waiting for the perfect evidence to walk in the door.
  • 11-27-2012, 12:44 PM
    cdwjava
    Re: What Can You Do if the Police Won't Give You Records
    Well, he can speak to whomever is conducting or had conducted the investigation, go to the media, go to the attorneys representing the heirs of the decedent, or stay silent. Simply his mere presence is not going to cause the AG to step in.
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