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Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional

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  • 09-15-2012, 12:20 AM
    kennagle
    Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    I am in the state of Texas.
    I hope I got this in the right forum.
    I apologize if i have worded this poorly.


    I have been researching this Law. Is it constitutional and/or if It is being misused my law enforcement.

    § 545.157. PASSING AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLE.
    http://law.onecle.com/texas/transpor...45.157.00.html
    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...htm/TN.545.htm

    I have found so far two opinion from the attorney generals office in regards to past versions of this law.
    http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/...pdf/pd0580.pdf
    http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/...pdf/cm0183.pdf

    I think i need to request clarifacation from the attorney generals office on the definition of "Authorized emergency vehicle"
    SUBCHAPTER C. VEHICLES, RAIL TRANSPORTATION, AND EQUIPMENT

    Sec. 541.201. VEHICLES. In this subtitle:
    in particular "
    (C) a municipal department or public service corporation emergency vehicle that has been designated or authorized by the governing body of a municipality;"

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...htm/TN.541.htm

    further more are law enforcement agency's misusing this law and is it constructional for them to use the law how they see fit.
    page 14 seems raise a few questions
    http://d3koy9tzykv199.cloudfront.net...TTI-2009-4.pdf

    i would like to get transcripts of on just how they plan to do this
    http://www.review.ci.austin.tx.us/ne...gency-vehicles
    It seems wrong that law enforcement could just run a "sting operation" for PASSING AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLE.

    - - - Updated - - -

    also it seems that there should be some distance from the road that would make this law unusable.
  • 09-15-2012, 08:34 AM
    jk
    Re: Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    the emergency vehicle definition really should not be a big issue.


    Quote:

    (a) On approaching a stationary authorized emergency vehicle using visual signals that meet the requirements of Sections 547.305 and 547.702,
    so, the vehicle isn't moving and it is displaying visual signals that only an emergency vehicle is allowed to have on their vehicle. Not sure why you see that as so difficult to determine.

    Vehicle moving or not displaying the emergency signals, law not applicable.

    Quote:

    Sec. 541.201. VEHICLES. In this subtitle:
    in particular "
    (C) a municipal department or public service corporation emergency vehicle that has been designated or authorized by the governing body of a municipality;"
    does it have emergency signals? Are they being displayed? If so, move over.


    seriously, not only is it not difficult to determine which vehicles it applies to, when driving, you are expected to understand the drive with due caution so as to avoid accidents or such. Err on the side of caution and there should never be a problem.

    Heck, I move over for a beat up old Yugo that is on the side of the road with their flashers on. It is called driving with due regard for the situation at hand. You never know when the Yugo driver will open his door (and most likely have it fall off into your path of travel) or step from around the vehicle into your path.



    Quote:

    also it seems that there should be some distance from the road that would make this law unusable.
    Seriously? If the vehicle is not on the highway, the law doesn't apply. If it is, you
    Quote:

    (1) vacate the lane closest to the emergency vehicle when driving on a highway with two or more lanes traveling in the direction of the emergency vehicle;

    or slow down.


    You really seem to be making more of this than there is. The law is actually one of the better laws regarding this issue I have seen. It is quite clear, especially when you compare it to many other state's laws.
  • 09-15-2012, 09:26 AM
    kennagle
    Re: Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    let me reply to your last statement first.

    Quote:

    You really seem to be making more of this than there is. The law is actually one of the better laws regarding this issue I have seen. It is quite clear, especially when you compare it to many other state's laws.
    It is a big deal if the law enforcement agency's are misusing this law, or worse flat out make illegal traffic stops. knowingly and on purpose!


    Quote:

    so, the vehicle isn't moving and it is displaying visual signals that only an emergency vehicle is allowed to have on their vehicle. Not sure why you see that as so difficult to determine.
    i posted § 545.157. PASSING AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLE as a reference. as this is the citation. I agree if a police, fire or ambulance are actively engaged in one of the situation listed it is cut and dry. the question is when they decide to leave there light's on and the situation is over, example ( A police officer pulls some one over for speeding. after the suspect has received the citation and continued on the officer leaves there lights on. from what i read that is not a lawful use of emergency lights. that is not the only problem.

    Quote:

    Sec. 541.201. VEHICLES. In this subtitle:
    in particular "
    (C) a municipal department or public service corporation emergency vehicle that has been designated or authorized by the governing body of a municipality;"

    does it have emergency signals? Are they being displayed? If so, move over.
    the reason i bring this up is that it was deemed unconstitutional for a police chief to do this because there was no guidance. now the law says the city management can make the decision but still no guidance. why is this important because if a city was low on funds they could make every one of there vehicles authorized emergency vehicles. and use them as bait. or cut a deal to a friend so they could take advantage of exemptions given to authorized emergency vehicles. as i see it there is no differance between the police chief and the city manager as regards to this opinion. http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opinions/40daniel/op/1948/pdf/pd0580.pdf

    Quote:

    Seriously, not only is it not difficult to determine which vehicles it applies to, when driving, you are expected to understand the drive with due caution so as to avoid accidents or such. Err on the side of caution and there should never be a problem.
    lets break this down
    it is easy to understand witch vehicle it applies to. it is also easy to understand that it is easy for the police to simply leave there light's on when there is no emergency.

    most people do slow down or move over. but it has become a problem sense the law enforcement agency's have decided to push the limits of this law. this law was created to protect them but now it seems they are putting them selfs in more danger just to right this ticket. I question that they are breaking the law to enforce it a majority of the time. As stated in this study
    page 14 seems to raise a few questions
    http://d3koy9tzykv199.cloudfront.net...TTI-2009-4.pdf

    Quote:

    "also it seems that there should be some distance from the road that would make this law unusable."
    Seriously? If the vehicle is not on the highway, the law doesn't apply. If it is, you
    this was my thoughts too.
    But i have personal seen. A ems vehicle being use for administrative purpose. With light's flashing 20 feet off the pavement and 10+ police either waiting to pull someone over or already have someone pulled over. I should add the ems vehicle was not part of the fire department but run my city managment. Now that is just wrong.
  • 09-15-2012, 10:19 AM
    Speedy Gonzalez
    Re: Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    To make something unconstitutional, it must impinge upon your rights. You do not have a RIGHT to drive.
  • 09-15-2012, 10:27 AM
    jk
    Re: Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    Quote:

    lets break this down
    it is easy to understand witch vehicle it applies to. it is also easy to understand that it is easy for the police to simply leave there light's on when there is no emergency.
    It matters not if you believe there is an emergency or not. If their lights are on, you must treat it as there is. Since when do you get to decide whether there is an emergency situation or not?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote:

    Quoting kennagle
    View Post


    this was my thoughts too.
    But i have personal seen. A ems vehicle being use for administrative purpose. With light's flashing 20 feet off the pavement and 10+ police either waiting to pull someone over or already have someone pulled over. I should add the ems vehicle was not part of the fire department but run my city managment. Now that is just wrong.

    but an ems response vehicle is an authorized emergency vehicle. Look it up.

    So, do you have the outcome of such a situation? Know anybody that actually contested the ticket and lost?
  • 09-15-2012, 10:31 AM
    cbg
    Re: Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    Just wondering why the poster gets to decide what's a legitimate use of an emergency vehicle and what isn't. Do you have access to the 911 calls and the dispatch records? If not, on what basis are you deciding when an emergency vehicle is being used appropriately and when it's not?

    ETA: great minds, jk
  • 09-15-2012, 10:54 AM
    kennagle
    Re: Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    Quote:

    It matters not if you believe there is an emergency or not. If their lights are on, you must treat it as there is. Since when do you get to decide whether there is an emergency situation or not?
    I dont get to decide the decision has already been made.

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...htm/TN.546.htm

    Quote:

    To make something unconstitutional, it must impinge upon your rights. You do not have a RIGHT to drive.
    please read this opinion

    http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/...pdf/pd0580.pdf

    but an ems response vehicle is an authorized emergency vehicle. Look it up.

    Quote:

    So, do you have the outcome of such a situation? Know anybody that actually contested the ticket and lost?
    a vast majority of people will not fight a ticket. rather they are guilty or not. the point is if this is also unconstitutional as was the ruled in this opinion then the ems vehicle would and could not be an authorized emergency vehicle unless it was owned my the fire department. or a law enforcement agency. http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/...pdf/pd0580.pdf
  • 09-15-2012, 11:05 AM
    cbg
    Re: Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    No, that's not what I'm asking. I'm not looking for definitions.

    I pulled over for an emergency vehicle about an hour ago. I have no idea where he was heading but I also have no reason to believe that his purpose was not legitimate.

    In any given situation, who gave you the authority to decide whether the emergency vehicle, whether in transit or parked, is not there for a legitimate purpose?
  • 09-15-2012, 11:18 AM
    kennagle
    Re: Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    Quote:

    Quoting cbg
    View Post
    No, that's not what I'm asking. I'm not looking for definitions.

    I pulled over for an emergency vehicle about an hour ago. I have no idea where he was heading but I also have no reason to believe that his purpose was not legitimate.

    In any given situation, who gave you the authority to decide whether the emergency vehicle, whether in transit or parked, is not there for a legitimate purpose?

    lets start with my question about the validity of the law and the opinion from the attorney general in 1948 and then in 1968. I did a far amount of research on this you could at least read it and understand the original question. before posting your rants.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The law is what the law is right now. and most if not all of your statements are true. I am talking about changing the law. as some parts are or maybe unconstitutional. and other are or maybe unenforceable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    and the definition are what make up the law
  • 09-15-2012, 11:22 AM
    cbg
    Re: Are Laws Against Passing Emergency Vehicles Unconstitutional
    I'm not ranting. I'm asking you a question. Which you are avoiding answering.
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