Flashing Camera Light for Right Turn

My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

Hey all, so last night around 3 AM I was cruising when I stop upon an intersection. Immediately I notice a sign that says "Photo Enforced" meaning they obviously take pictures for illegal right turns. I was stopped for a good 5-7 seconds looking for a "no right turn on red" sign because thats why I thought it was enforced. I didn't see one however, and decided that it was legal to take that right turn. Right when I turn, it flashes me..... It was so unexpected. I went back to the intersection and double checked all the signs and there is no "no right turn on red" so I don't understand why I got flashed. Especially since I was stopped there for a good 5-7 seconds of me just looking for a bloody sign that says I couldn't turn.

Any input/advice?

I do not know how a camera could differentiate between a driver who ran a red light and one who stopped and made a legal right turn. I suspect you will either find out a right turn on red is not allowed at that intersection for some reason and you either missed the sign or it was not properly marked or that they do know how to differentiate between a legal and illegal right turn.



any chance you can provide street and city names or a map link of the intersection?

Many cameras do not discriminate on what they take a picture of. The decision to issue a citation is almost always up to an officer, not the camera. I had a similar experience in San Francisco about 3 years ago. I got cut off and ended up going through on a yellow, which turned red just as I reached the other side of the intersection. FLASH! Never received a ticket.

OK, here is really why it happened....

First, we need to establsih the legal requirement as you approach a red light:

21453.

(a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

So you must stop "at" the limit line... Well, I think stopping "at" the limit line usually means cutting it too close where you might actually go over it or pass it which would make you in violation of 21453 but it can also be considered a violation of 21970 for blocking the crosswalk... So I think the wise thing to do is to stop BEFORE the limit line...

The system, believe it or not, is programmed to be a little more forgiving than what the law requires... How?

In cases where a driver might slightly go over the limit line and although it is, by definition a violation, as long as you did not go through the intersection (whether to go straight, turn left or turn right) while the light is showing its red indication, the system is programmed to overlook that.

In your case, and based on your description, you presumably stopped over or past the line, at which point the system is now programmed to wait you out to determine if you continued through (even if it was 5 seconds or so later) or whether you waited until a green indication is shown... You (I am guessing) did the former and went through...

How does it do this? two detector loops, one placed at the limit line and the other placed at the line marking the inside edge of the crosswalk.

Would such a citation stand even if there is no "No Turn On Red" sign? I mean you did stop... You were careful...

Yes, such a citation would in fact stand in spite of the fact that you stopped, waited 5 seconds or so during which you possibly checked cross traffic and pedestrians in the adjacent crosswalk and the proceeded with your turn... And yes, it would stand in spite of the fact the there is no "No Turn On Red" sign at that turn... It would stand because when you made your initial stop, you did so over or past the limit line, not at or just before it, which we've already established is a prohibited act!

Not much you can do at this point in time but worry and wait.

Red light camera citations must be issued and mailed to the registered owner of the vehicle at his/her address on file with the DMV within the 15 day period after the alleged violation.. So give it about 20 days or so... If you don't get anything, that means you got lucky and they decided not to issue a citation... In the meantime, if you have a job that allows for overtime or extra hours, you might want to do a few and start saving just in case.

Good luck!

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Quoting jk

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I do not know how a camera could differentiate between a driver who ran a red light and one who stopped and made a legal right turn. I suspect you will either find out a right turn on red is not allowed at that intersection for some reason and you either missed the sign or it was not properly marked or that they do know how to differentiate between a legal and illegal right turn.



any chance you can provide street and city names or a map link of the intersection?

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That is what I was thinking but I double checked and went back. There was no sign that said I could not turn on red. The intersection was mission bay drive and garnet avenue; i was going down garnet avenue taking a right onto mission bay drive. If you look down also, I don't see how a camera would capture my plates anyhow. None of the cameras are facing any angle that I could get captured.

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Quoting Speedy Gonzalez

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Many cameras do not discriminate on what they take a picture of. The decision to issue a citation is almost always up to an officer, not the camera. I had a similar experience in San Francisco about 3 years ago. I got cut off and ended up going through on a yellow, which turned red just as I reached the other side of the intersection. FLASH! Never received a ticket.

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Oh I see, I wanted to double check. Someone does check the camera and decides if it was good or not right? I'm hoping they see that I clearly did stop.

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Quoting That Guy

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OK, here is really why it happened....

First, we need to establsih the legal requirement as you approach a red light:

21453.

(a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

So you must stop "at" the limit line... Well, I think stopping "at" the limit line usually means cutting it too close where you might actually go over it or pass it which would make you in violation of 21453 but it can also be considered a violation of 21970 for blocking the crosswalk... So I think the wise thing to do is to stop BEFORE the limit line...

The system, believe it or not, is programmed to be a little more forgiving than what the law requires... How?

In cases where a driver might slightly go over the limit line and although it is, by definition a violation, as long as you did not go through the intersection (whether to go straight, turn left or turn right) while the light is showing its red indication, the system is programmed to overlook that.

In your case, and based on your description, you presumably stopped over or past the line, at which point the system is now programmed to wait you out to determine if you continued through (even if it was 5 seconds or so later) or whether you waited until a green indication is shown... You (I am guessing) did the former and went through...

How does it do this? two detector loops, one placed at the limit line and the other placed at the line marking the inside edge of the crosswalk.

Would such a citation stand even if there is no "No Turn On Red" sign? I mean you did stop... You were careful...

Yes, such a citation would in fact stand in spite of the fact that you stopped, waited 5 seconds or so during which you possibly checked cross traffic and pedestrians in the adjacent crosswalk and the proceeded with your turn... And yes, it would stand in spite of the fact the there is no "No Turn On Red" sign at that turn... It would stand because when you made your initial stop, you did so over or past the limit line, not at or just before it, which we've already established is a prohibited act!

Not much you can do at this point in time but worry and wait.

Red light camera citations must be issued and mailed to the registered owner of the vehicle at his/her address on file with the DMV within the 15 day period after the alleged violation.. So give it about 20 days or so... If you don't get anything, that means you got lucky and they decided not to issue a citation... In the meantime, if you have a job that allows for overtime or extra hours, you might want to do a few and start saving just in case.

Good luck!

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Negative, I did not go over the line. I saw the photo enforced sign from afar and I have gotten a ticket before for taking a right turn on red when it wasn't legal. Hence I was cautious and I stopped 5-7 before even considering taking the right turn.

I appreciate all the input and want to thank you guys for taking the time to reply!

I'd not sweat it. The camera probably also doesn't know if you turned right or not. (You didn't say which street you were on at that intersection, not all of them have dedicated right turn lanes). If you get a ticket in the mail, write back.

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Quoting flyingron

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I'd not sweat it. The camera probably also doesn't know if you turned right or not. (You didn't say which street you were on at that intersection, not all of them have dedicated right turn lanes). If you get a ticket in the mail, write back.

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If I was to write back on the ticket, what would I say? Any advice?

I mean write back HERE...